modified alternator crank access cap nut
08-16-2012, 04:59 PM
#1
Member
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: upstate NY
Posts: 39
modified alternator crank access cap nut
what a piece of crap that stock design is.... soft aluminum that is guaranteed to seize in place and then strip when you try to remove it with a 10mm allen key. it should have been made with stainless with a 17mm external hex nut, but i digress.
in the course of modifying my stock CCT's to manual i got completely stuck by that poorly designed cap. no amount of heat or chiseling worked. cut it up pretty badly. no alternative but to pull the stator cover. rough TIG'ed on a wrench flat and the high heat loosened it right up. did some further welding/filing with cap free. should not have that problem again.
in the course of modifying my stock CCT's to manual i got completely stuck by that poorly designed cap. no amount of heat or chiseling worked. cut it up pretty badly. no alternative but to pull the stator cover. rough TIG'ed on a wrench flat and the high heat loosened it right up. did some further welding/filing with cap free. should not have that problem again.
08-16-2012, 05:34 PM
#2
Senior Member
Superstock
Superstock
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 293
Yeah, it sucks. But there are worse. I was just working on an older Suzuki for a friend, and the access cap on that one is the single flat slot, the way they did it for years in the 70's. I scrounged around all over the house trying to find a tool narrow enough to fit the slot. Tried using the loosening wrench for my angle grinder turned on edge. Bent it like a preztel. Same with both a quarter and half dollar held in vice grips. They look like potato chips now. Got a little pissed and used my impact driver hoping to shock it loose. Nope. Just punched right through it. 
I eventually chiseled it out, only to discover the o-ring was, of course, dry as a bone.
It went back together (after ordering a new cap) with black high temp brake caliper grease, and only lightly snugged.
That's what has worked well with my VTR cap in the past...gotta keep that oring from bonding to the aluminum cover and getting overly compressed, or you run into problems like you encountered. I now just use a well fitting allen bit on my electric impact driver too. Zaps it right off.
I eventually chiseled it out, only to discover the o-ring was, of course, dry as a bone.
It went back together (after ordering a new cap) with black high temp brake caliper grease, and only lightly snugged.
That's what has worked well with my VTR cap in the past...gotta keep that oring from bonding to the aluminum cover and getting overly compressed, or you run into problems like you encountered. I now just use a well fitting allen bit on my electric impact driver too. Zaps it right off.
08-18-2012, 10:05 AM
#4
Administrator
MotoGP
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kempner, TX
Posts: 4,402
It's a common issue when less experienced folks install the cap incorrectly.
It happens to all brands, all models. I've removed seized access caps from dozens of bikes over the years.
When installed properly there is no issue... it is not a design fault, it's a person tuning the wrench fault.
You can not design a stupid proof part, there is always someone able to apply a stupider plan of attack..
It happens to all brands, all models. I've removed seized access caps from dozens of bikes over the years.
When installed properly there is no issue... it is not a design fault, it's a person tuning the wrench fault.
You can not design a stupid proof part, there is always someone able to apply a stupider plan of attack..
08-18-2012, 10:49 AM
#5
Well take off, eh.
SuperBike
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: QC, Canada
Posts: 1,201
Your right. The last time I removed it on my '98, I used a torque rench,
and you just apply a little pressure and let it work. A little patience is key
not to reck the nut.
08-19-2012, 09:22 AM
#9
road racer v2 power
Superstock
Superstock
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: coventry england
Posts: 265
Have a read here
http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewto...23928&start=30
http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewto...23928&start=30
08-19-2012, 11:09 AM
#10
Senior Member
Back Marker
Back Marker
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 139
[QUOTE=barncat;340016]what a piece of crap that stock design is.... soft aluminum that is guaranteed to seize in place and then strip when you try to remove it with a 10mm allen key. it should have been made with stainless with a 17mm external hex nut, but i digress.
The purpose of using soft aluminum is so if it does seize, you sacrifice the cap threads instead of the cover threads getting stripped. ($$$) I would think twice about putting a cap made from a harder, dissimilar material in the cover.
The purpose of using soft aluminum is so if it does seize, you sacrifice the cap threads instead of the cover threads getting stripped. ($$$) I would think twice about putting a cap made from a harder, dissimilar material in the cover.
08-19-2012, 12:03 PM
#11
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
The purpose of using soft aluminum is so if it does seize, you sacrifice the cap threads instead of the cover threads getting stripped. ($$$) I would think twice about putting a cap made from a harder, dissimilar material in the cover.
08-19-2012, 05:47 PM
#12
Member
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: upstate NY
Posts: 39
hey- it's a bad design. period. anything that requires hours of labor and completely unnecessary extra disassembly instead of a 5 second job gets a serious thumbs down from me (just like the CCT's and regulator). note the nice stainless aftermarket bits above. and in my defense, i just bought the bike two weeks ago.
the coefficient of thermal expansion is also lower on stainless than aluminum, making the material far less likely to essentially temporarily weld itself into place than two pieces of aluminum, not to mention it's very low tendency to oxidize.
i won't have this problem again because now i can get a lot of leverage on that cap with a crescent wrench.
the coefficient of thermal expansion is also lower on stainless than aluminum, making the material far less likely to essentially temporarily weld itself into place than two pieces of aluminum, not to mention it's very low tendency to oxidize.
i won't have this problem again because now i can get a lot of leverage on that cap with a crescent wrench.
08-19-2012, 06:30 PM
#13
Administrator
MotoGP
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kempner, TX
Posts: 4,402
It's not the design, it's the installer that's screwed up.. harsh but reality.
Sounds ;like it was the previous owner that over tightened yours.. Good, you know better and will have no such issues.
the coefficient of thermal expansion is also lower on stainless than aluminum, making the material far less likely to essentially temporarily weld itself into place than two pieces of aluminum, not to mention it's very low tendency to oxidize.
oh and..
"coefficient of thermal expansion"
Umm ok, sure....
i won't have this problem again because now i can get a lot of leverage on that cap with a crescent wrench.
But it's ugly, unneeded, and quite frankly hack job abomination
if that solution works for you great..
I'll just use an OEM plug, same one in use since 1997 when the bike was built.
Last edited by E.Marquez; 08-19-2012 at 06:43 PM.
08-19-2012, 06:59 PM
#14
Senior Member
SuperSport
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Nooksack WA
Posts: 834
Again, it only takes 1 min to remove when ignorant users don't screw up the install.. and it takes only few more when they do...
It's not the design, it's the installer that's screwed up.. harsh but reality.
Sounds ;like it was the previous owner that over tightened yours.. Good, you know better and will have no such issues.
Not stainless Steel, Titanium...and there is no issue at all with using Ti plug or SS in the OEM cover.. Just a light touch of Anti Seize and it will come out as long as installed just till seated, and not over torqued.
oh and..
Umm ok, sure....+1
Umm, sure ..
But it's ugly, unneeded, and quite frankly hack job abomination
if that solution works for you great..
I'll just use an OEM plug, same one in use since 1997 when the bike was built.
Last edited by thetophatflash; 08-19-2012 at 07:00 PM. Reason: What he said.....+1
08-20-2012, 08:01 AM
#15
Member
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: upstate NY
Posts: 39
EMarquez- ok, you get it that i've owned the bike for just a few days, my assertion was that a stainless or Ti cap would be superior to cheap aluminum in several respects which you failed to comprehend, and good luck trying to hurt my feelings dude.....
08-20-2012, 08:36 AM
#17
Administrator
MotoGP
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kempner, TX
Posts: 4,402
Hurt your feelings? No, tell it like it is.. You bet.
1: It's not cheap aluminum at issue... it's a very standard deign part that very standard riders who don’t know any better screw up with great regularity.
2: SS would weigh more.. that does not go over well in selling motorcycles. SS would cost more, and Ti even more than that.. on a very middle of the road standard motorcycle that does not sell well either.
SS or TI, if installed incorrectly will seize just as tight as the AL one, and you would strip out the internal hex as well as you just did the aluminum one.
Have you ever machined Ti or SS? Id bet not…
It's simple.. you ruined the OEM plug trying to remove it,,.. that’s common. More so when it was installed wrong the last time.. It's also common for folks like you to blame it on "cheap..xyz" when really it’s just you the wrench turner, or the previous one.
It’s just funny is all, thousands of “mechanics” damage fasteners or parts though incorrect tool, or tool usage, and blame the bike and design..
Many times that number have no issue at all, because they have been taught correctly how to use a tool, how to work with the materials at hand and correctly install a part or assembly.
Those many hundreds of thousands never post and say “ hey, once again I did not damage my bike though ignorant use of tools”. So the ones we here most about is those few that damaged the part.
BTW, just for giggles, I went out this morning and removed the stator cover plug… guess what, came right out, no damage… that’s probable the hundredth or more time that plug has been removed and replaced since 1997.
Don’t blame the bike when you screw up…. That’s the point of my response to this thread…….. Oh and,, still,, that Thing you made which you plan on using a crescent wrench on (tool selection states more about your “experience” then you know.. thanks for that insight) it’s still an abomination
but in a good way.. you created something THAT WORKS....... function over form is not a bad thing.
Last edited by E.Marquez; 08-20-2012 at 09:15 AM.
08-20-2012, 10:59 AM
#18
Senior Member
SuperSport
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 807
barncat inherited a problem with a bike that was new to him and he came up with a solution that, while effective, was inelegant. According to the service manual, the crankshaft hole cap threads should be greased and the cap should be tightened to 11 ft/lbs. It can seize even if installed properly and it then becomes difficult to remove without damage. It's all old news. Most people will remove it only when the time comes to adjust the valves. If it is left undisturbed for years it is more likely to seize. If, as the moderator does, the cap is removed frequently, it is unlikely to seize. So if you put anti-seize or grease on the threads, do not overtighten it and loosen it and retighten it when you wash your bike or when the moon is full or when your girlfriend starts her period or maybe even every solstice, you shouldn't have a problem.
08-20-2012, 01:33 PM
#19
Member
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: upstate NY
Posts: 39
JFC Marquez... i'm not sure what has prompted your decision to hurl insults at me other than blind allegiance to a particular brand name. i think the bike is way cool, but i called a 10 dollar part a piece of crap because it demonstrably is. i'm not the only person to have had this problem and i don't enjoy taking my bike apart with a chisel. and your advice is to replace it with an identical new one.... ain't gonna happen. i threw the crescent wrench reference in there just to **** people like you off.
is this the most elegant part i've ever salvaged? no, not by a longshot... it was just a mangled chunk of aluminum and i didn't feel like spending 30 bucks and waiting a week to get another one- that could easily fail again. i've built hundreds of parts of all descriptions, including some of SS. pic of my '79 750SS attached though not really large enough to see all the custom detail.
and btw, you have a part just like that functional "abomination" on YOUR bike. it's called the oil filler cap.
is this the most elegant part i've ever salvaged? no, not by a longshot... it was just a mangled chunk of aluminum and i didn't feel like spending 30 bucks and waiting a week to get another one- that could easily fail again. i've built hundreds of parts of all descriptions, including some of SS. pic of my '79 750SS attached though not really large enough to see all the custom detail.
and btw, you have a part just like that functional "abomination" on YOUR bike. it's called the oil filler cap.
Last edited by barncat; 08-20-2012 at 01:42 PM.
08-20-2012, 02:35 PM
#20
Administrator
MotoGP
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kempner, TX
Posts: 4,402
Umm, no, I don’t.. .
If that crank access plug works for you and your happy with it.. GREAT.. that’s all that matters is YOUR happy with it.
.. We can agree to disagree,, you think the issue is with the part, I think the issue is with the crescent wrench wielding person working on the bike.
If you find that insulting.. so be it.
Last edited by E.Marquez; 08-20-2012 at 02:41 PM.
08-20-2012, 02:41 PM
#21
Senior Member
MotoGP
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 3,869
On the forum, you’ve been here for less than a month, not that this has much relation to your experience or credibility in person or otherwise, but we haven’t seen much of you yet, and then start a thread saying a part of the bike was designed poorly and then proceed to mutilate it. Arguments of the mechanics aside, you’re telling him that the part he has been using with no problems since he’s owned the bike is faulty and that he should recognize this. When in his mind he knows why and how it would fail and takes measures so that this won’t happen.
I wouldn’t call it brand loyalty, I’d just call it a mechanic knowing the limitations of working with a bike. It’s not really that your solution doesn’t work for you (and man I would love to be able to weld aluminum!), it’s that you’re saying the OEM solution shouldn’t work for him.
09-04-2012, 04:46 PM
#22
Senior Member
SuperSport
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico
Posts: 582
I just got a set of these today in the mail. They are very nice and look good on the bike! Nice little detail to help make the bike my own. This is how it starts. I know from past experience that this will lead to other things. Oh well, I did try! The wife says the refrigerator and oven are off limits! HA!!
09-05-2012, 10:33 AM
#23
Well take off, eh.
SuperBike
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: QC, Canada
Posts: 1,201
09-05-2012, 06:06 PM
#24
The Pirate Sportbiker
Squid
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 55
A couple people have said it already - don't overtighten that thing and you should be alright. Sometimes snug is good enough. I know too many people that follow the "tight is right" philosophy when working on their stuff. Booooo!
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
