Mid pipe pipe size
08-25-2006, 02:12 PM
#1
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Mid pipe pipe size
This is for everyone that has an aftermarket exhaust on their Superhawk.
What size is the mid pipe where it goes into the can?
Of course you will have to have a dial caliper to measure this correctly.
My Two Brothers mid pipes are 2" where they go into the can. I am trying to find out if other brands use the same size mid pipe where the mid pipe goes into the can.
The reason why is I took a 200 mile ride the other day and by the end of it I have decided that the Two Brothers are just too loud. Rather than put the stock pipes back on I measured the outlets on a ZX-10R (1 3/8" ) and a busa (1 7/16" ). Both of these bikes have twin outlets.
I am going to make 2 bushings:
2" O.D. 1 3/8" I.D. and 1/8" thick.
Then I am going to place them in the inlet of my cans, 1 in each can, slip the can onto the mid pipe and reinstall the springs and hangar.
My idea is to let less sound into the cans so my bike will be quieter overall but still have enough flow to not impede the performance. I can make the I.D. any size I want but I am going to start with 1 3/8" which is good enough for the 160 hp ZX-10 outlets. I think the 2" I.D. cores of the Two Brothers is overkill and the bushings won't hurt performance. If they do I will just make the next pair 1 1/2" I.D. and try that. and so forth.
The beauty of this is you just unbolt the hangar, take off the springs, slip off the can and take the bushings out for track days or if you want it loud and simply put them back in when you want it quieter. Since they are only 1/8" thick (and there is a shoulder in the can that the mid pipe butts up against) this is a very simple trick to make your bike quieter.
Once I get the I.D. of the bushings the optimum size for quieter and no loss of performance I will make some extra sets and make them avaliable for purchase on the forum.
That's why I need to know if the aftermarket is using a standard size mid pipe where it goes into the cans. If it is only Two Brothers that uses 2" then the application will be limited to them.
I would also like to know the core I.D. on the Jardine street cores which are too quiet in my opinion.
This way if you have race cans like me and want them a little quieter this will be a simple removeable fix. I am making the bushings out of aluminum, my favorite material to work with.
What size is the mid pipe where it goes into the can?
Of course you will have to have a dial caliper to measure this correctly.
My Two Brothers mid pipes are 2" where they go into the can. I am trying to find out if other brands use the same size mid pipe where the mid pipe goes into the can.
The reason why is I took a 200 mile ride the other day and by the end of it I have decided that the Two Brothers are just too loud. Rather than put the stock pipes back on I measured the outlets on a ZX-10R (1 3/8" ) and a busa (1 7/16" ). Both of these bikes have twin outlets.
I am going to make 2 bushings:
2" O.D. 1 3/8" I.D. and 1/8" thick.
Then I am going to place them in the inlet of my cans, 1 in each can, slip the can onto the mid pipe and reinstall the springs and hangar.
My idea is to let less sound into the cans so my bike will be quieter overall but still have enough flow to not impede the performance. I can make the I.D. any size I want but I am going to start with 1 3/8" which is good enough for the 160 hp ZX-10 outlets. I think the 2" I.D. cores of the Two Brothers is overkill and the bushings won't hurt performance. If they do I will just make the next pair 1 1/2" I.D. and try that. and so forth.
The beauty of this is you just unbolt the hangar, take off the springs, slip off the can and take the bushings out for track days or if you want it loud and simply put them back in when you want it quieter. Since they are only 1/8" thick (and there is a shoulder in the can that the mid pipe butts up against) this is a very simple trick to make your bike quieter.
Once I get the I.D. of the bushings the optimum size for quieter and no loss of performance I will make some extra sets and make them avaliable for purchase on the forum.
That's why I need to know if the aftermarket is using a standard size mid pipe where it goes into the cans. If it is only Two Brothers that uses 2" then the application will be limited to them.
I would also like to know the core I.D. on the Jardine street cores which are too quiet in my opinion.
This way if you have race cans like me and want them a little quieter this will be a simple removeable fix. I am making the bushings out of aluminum, my favorite material to work with.
08-25-2006, 02:21 PM
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Someone on the board mentioned that they capped off the right side header pipe and just ran the left can and it ran fine with just one can. That's what gave me the idea. They also mentioned that they capped off the left side and ran the right can and performance was impaired because of the factory restriction in the right side header pipe (which I have already fixed) where it goes to the mid pipe. That's what made me think if you go too small on the bushing I.D. it won't work very well. That's how I decided to start with 1 3/8" I.D. on the bushings which should flow better than just the left can only that the person on the forum tried which would be just one 2" pipe.
Anyway, it's worth a try and is easily removed if it doesn't work with no harm done. Surely it will be less restrictive than the stock exhaust.
Anyway, it's worth a try and is easily removed if it doesn't work with no harm done. Surely it will be less restrictive than the stock exhaust.
08-25-2006, 07:17 PM
#4
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I've got a quick question about the 2 Bros exhausts... Which cans are you running? Do the C2 sound the same as the C4 or C5? I'm going to buy an exhaust here pretty soon and I'm trying to debate on what size cans to get... I think I'd rather have the smaller cans (M2 or C2) but wonder what cans are the closest match to the stock cans.
08-26-2006, 06:16 PM
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I don't have that many miles on my pipes. I made the bushings today with a
1 1/2" I.D. and would have put them in but for a big storm here (no room with the car in the garage) The I.D. is the same I.D. as the header pipe so it will go from 1 1/2" to 2" in the mid pipe then 1 1/2" right before the 2" core of the can. I doubt if this is going to impede flow but hopefully will quiet it down a little.
FMF puts a little expansion chamber in their header pipe then it goes back down to the header size then connects to the muffler so who knows what kind of result I will get. Probably won't notice anything performancewise but the mid pipes will act like a expansion chamber with the bushing at the inlet to the can so it will be an interesting experiment and can be easily undone.
I would still like to know the core size of the Jardine street cores. I bet it is
1 1/2".
1 1/2" I.D. and would have put them in but for a big storm here (no room with the car in the garage) The I.D. is the same I.D. as the header pipe so it will go from 1 1/2" to 2" in the mid pipe then 1 1/2" right before the 2" core of the can. I doubt if this is going to impede flow but hopefully will quiet it down a little.
FMF puts a little expansion chamber in their header pipe then it goes back down to the header size then connects to the muffler so who knows what kind of result I will get. Probably won't notice anything performancewise but the mid pipes will act like a expansion chamber with the bushing at the inlet to the can so it will be an interesting experiment and can be easily undone.
I would still like to know the core size of the Jardine street cores. I bet it is
1 1/2".
08-26-2006, 06:18 PM
#6
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I have the C2 cans which I think look appropriate for this 600 sized bike. They look good on there. There is no difference volume wise between the different cans according to Two Brothers, just a different look.
08-29-2006, 08:10 AM
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Well they worked. The 1 1/2" I.D. quieted the Two Brothers down noticeably with no loss of power and they are still able to be heard very well without being too loud. I can live with this volume level.
08-29-2006, 02:08 PM
#9
Señor Miembro, Ay Caramba
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I figured that would be the result. That's good to know.
Resonators on cars are often just a temporary enlargement of the pipe. They kill the sound a bit more than they slow down exhaust gas flow.
Resonators on cars are often just a temporary enlargement of the pipe. They kill the sound a bit more than they slow down exhaust gas flow.
08-29-2006, 08:07 PM
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Two Bros make "Quiet Tip" inserts. They are not in the catalog, but are available (or were when I got them) if you call. To install, you drill out the rivets, remove the end cap, drop the Quiet Tips in and reinstall the end caps. They reduced the volume significantly without reducing performance (based on informal roll-ons against my friends VTR with unrestricted Slipons).
These are not as easy to remove as the parts you made, but they are available.
These are not as easy to remove as the parts you made, but they are available.
09-12-2006, 06:04 PM
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Okay, the Two Brothers quiet tips gave me an idea. I have the 1 1/2" I.D. bushings in the front of the can (the ones I made) so I thought I would do the same thing for the back of the cans. I removed the end caps off the Two Brothers cans. Here is the procedure.
Buy a #30 drill bit so you can drill out the rivets (#30 is the correct size)
Buy a package of aluminum large flange 1/8" rivets with a grip range of 1/16-1/8" inch
At Westlake Hardware in the fastener aisle in one of those pull out drawers you will find "machine bushings" that's what they call them. Buy 4 of the
2 1/4" O.D. - 1 1/2" I.D. bushings (these are the perfect size) $1.14 ea.
They look like big washers.
Now you have your own quiet tips.
Remove the cans then drill out the rivets. (lay them on a soft cloth)
Take half of a tent pole or something similar and insert it down the inlet side of the can. (inside the rear tip there is a ledge on the right and left side of the tip you can put the end of the pole against)
Put a soft towel on the floor for the tip to fall on.
Hold the can between you legs preferably wearing shorts so you can get a grip and position the end tip over the towel.
Now take a plastic/rubber tipped hammer and tap on the tent pole going back and forth left and right side of the tip. The tip will come out of the can and fall on the towel.
Now take a machine bushing and place it inside the rear tip then while holding the can downward reinsert the end tip into the can, tap the tip back in using the rubber tip of the hammer to reseat the end cap until the rivet holes line up.
Stick your finger in the end and see if there is any front and rear play on the bushing. The perforated tube in the can will butt up against the bushing holding it tight to the rear tip. I had to use only 1 bushing on the right can but the left can took 3 bushings before the perforated tube held the bushings tight against the tip. I guess the perforated tube in the left can wasn't as long as the one in the right can. You don't want them rattling in the end of the can.
Once you have the right amount of bushings in there before you tap the tip tight against them look in there to make sure the holes in the bushings are lined up. You can use a extension or something to stick in there and tap the inside of the bushings to line them up. Once they are lined up finish tapping the tip in untill the rivet holes line up.
Once you are satisfied everything is tight and lined up use a rivet gun and install the new rivets. Put the can back on and you are done.
It will be quieter now but still loud enough. I used the bushings I made in the front of the cans and the ones I bought at Westlake Hardware in the back of the cans. It made it a little quieter than just using the bushings in the front of the cans.
My bike is stock except for the Two Brothers slip ons. Putting these washer/bushings in there will add a little backpressure into the system. I didn't notice much difference performance wise until I added the washers into the back of the cans. I noticed a big increase in power after this mod. Evidently unless you rejet your bike with the Two Brothers they are a little bit of overkill size wise (they have 2 1/8 I.D. cores) The 1 1/2" I.D. washers in the front and back of the cans must of made the backpressure just about perfect because it pulls harder than it ever has before. It is a noticeable difference if your jetting is stock and you have Two Brothers slip ons. I never had to hang onto the tank with my knees before. I was impressed. The rear bushing/washers you can get at Westlake Hardware but the front ones you will have to make as I could not find any washers the right size.
Anyway, the above is the results of my experiment.
Buy a #30 drill bit so you can drill out the rivets (#30 is the correct size)
Buy a package of aluminum large flange 1/8" rivets with a grip range of 1/16-1/8" inch
At Westlake Hardware in the fastener aisle in one of those pull out drawers you will find "machine bushings" that's what they call them. Buy 4 of the
2 1/4" O.D. - 1 1/2" I.D. bushings (these are the perfect size) $1.14 ea.
They look like big washers.
Now you have your own quiet tips.
Remove the cans then drill out the rivets. (lay them on a soft cloth)
Take half of a tent pole or something similar and insert it down the inlet side of the can. (inside the rear tip there is a ledge on the right and left side of the tip you can put the end of the pole against)
Put a soft towel on the floor for the tip to fall on.
Hold the can between you legs preferably wearing shorts so you can get a grip and position the end tip over the towel.
Now take a plastic/rubber tipped hammer and tap on the tent pole going back and forth left and right side of the tip. The tip will come out of the can and fall on the towel.
Now take a machine bushing and place it inside the rear tip then while holding the can downward reinsert the end tip into the can, tap the tip back in using the rubber tip of the hammer to reseat the end cap until the rivet holes line up.
Stick your finger in the end and see if there is any front and rear play on the bushing. The perforated tube in the can will butt up against the bushing holding it tight to the rear tip. I had to use only 1 bushing on the right can but the left can took 3 bushings before the perforated tube held the bushings tight against the tip. I guess the perforated tube in the left can wasn't as long as the one in the right can. You don't want them rattling in the end of the can.
Once you have the right amount of bushings in there before you tap the tip tight against them look in there to make sure the holes in the bushings are lined up. You can use a extension or something to stick in there and tap the inside of the bushings to line them up. Once they are lined up finish tapping the tip in untill the rivet holes line up.
Once you are satisfied everything is tight and lined up use a rivet gun and install the new rivets. Put the can back on and you are done.
It will be quieter now but still loud enough. I used the bushings I made in the front of the cans and the ones I bought at Westlake Hardware in the back of the cans. It made it a little quieter than just using the bushings in the front of the cans.
My bike is stock except for the Two Brothers slip ons. Putting these washer/bushings in there will add a little backpressure into the system. I didn't notice much difference performance wise until I added the washers into the back of the cans. I noticed a big increase in power after this mod. Evidently unless you rejet your bike with the Two Brothers they are a little bit of overkill size wise (they have 2 1/8 I.D. cores) The 1 1/2" I.D. washers in the front and back of the cans must of made the backpressure just about perfect because it pulls harder than it ever has before. It is a noticeable difference if your jetting is stock and you have Two Brothers slip ons. I never had to hang onto the tank with my knees before. I was impressed. The rear bushing/washers you can get at Westlake Hardware but the front ones you will have to make as I could not find any washers the right size.
Anyway, the above is the results of my experiment.
09-13-2006, 01:05 PM
#13
Señor Miembro, Ay Caramba
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: a little north of DC
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All of the sudden, I'm liking Two Bros more. I was gonna go for some used Yoshis to keep the sound level down. Looks like I have another avenue. Good work!
Say.. The sound coming out is still the deep rumble/thump of a TBR, right? Like, is it the same, just muffled; or is it muffled and slightly higher pitched?
Say.. The sound coming out is still the deep rumble/thump of a TBR, right? Like, is it the same, just muffled; or is it muffled and slightly higher pitched?
09-14-2006, 07:02 PM
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It is still the classic Two Brothers sound just somewhat quieter but no way I would classify it as quiet. There is still plenty of volume, but below the threshold of too loud. I wish I had a db meter so I could give you a accurate number. Maybe they sell them cheap at Radio Shack.
10-08-2006, 03:19 AM
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I think another reason why it works so well is the newer bikes have a exhaust valve that closes somewhat to boost the midrange then opens up to boost the top end but those bikes turn well over 10K. Since the Superhawk peaks at around 8200 I think all you need is the right amount of backpressure in the system to max out the powerband. Our bikes run in the rpm range that would be considered the midrange of say a GSXR 1000.
03-28-2007, 06:40 AM
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The final setup I wound up with was a 1 1/2" I.D. spacer at the end of the mid pipe with a 45 degree angle to smooth the flow into the can, then a
1 3/8" I.D. spacer at the end of the can (you have to remove the end cap to install) with a 45 degree angle to smooth the flow exiting the can.
Awesome mid range and it rips up through the powerband really fast. You really have to keep up with the shifting in the first 2 gears (stock gearing)
I realize there are doubters about this mod. I just think it is tuning the exhaust to mazimize the stock jetting. It is still a lot less restrictive than stock. These are more mid range bikes than top end bikes like I-4's. I consider 4000-8500 mid range which is basically the powerband on the Superhawk which stock peaks at 8200.
The advantage is no messing with the stock jetting and you can easily put the stock cans back on with no tuning issues if you wanted to. I will find a jetted Superhawk around here eventually and check it out against it to judge the improvment. Should be easy to do in various gears starting at 4k.
1 3/8" I.D. spacer at the end of the can (you have to remove the end cap to install) with a 45 degree angle to smooth the flow exiting the can.
Awesome mid range and it rips up through the powerband really fast. You really have to keep up with the shifting in the first 2 gears (stock gearing)
I realize there are doubters about this mod. I just think it is tuning the exhaust to mazimize the stock jetting. It is still a lot less restrictive than stock. These are more mid range bikes than top end bikes like I-4's. I consider 4000-8500 mid range which is basically the powerband on the Superhawk which stock peaks at 8200.
The advantage is no messing with the stock jetting and you can easily put the stock cans back on with no tuning issues if you wanted to. I will find a jetted Superhawk around here eventually and check it out against it to judge the improvment. Should be easy to do in various gears starting at 4k.
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