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A little bit rich.

Old 05-24-2012, 04:25 AM
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A little bit rich.

Here's my old plugs. DPR8EIX-9. Not sure how long they have been in the bike (just bought it) but the electrodes don't show any wear. Rear plug is on the left. The ground electrode is a little cleaner on the front plug but still dark. Hard to see in the pics. Looks rich to me.

Here's everything I know so far about this bike. It has a K&N filter, stock carb horns (correctly placed), airbox cover has rubber inlet elbow in place, V&H SS2 exhaust, PAIR removal, restrictor removal, and the exhaust's 2-1-2 cross hasn't been opened up. The throttle slides only have 2 holes and they do not appear to be drilled. I have no idea what jets or needles are in this thing or where the mix screws are set but I'll know soon enough as I'm about to pull the carbs.

After seeing these plugs, can someone point me in the right direction as to tuning? I don't want to open a can of worms because it seems to be running ok but the idle is a little rough. It almost sounds cam'd but it smells rich when idling. Could be someone opened up the mix screws. I hope it's that simple. If it's a jetting issue, how much oversized of a jet makes plugs this black?

Attached Thumbnails A little bit rich.-rich-small-.jpg  
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Old 05-24-2012, 06:29 AM
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Yes you are way rich and I don't care for the residue on the threads of the plug on the left. Looks like oil residue to me.

As far as jetting I recommend reading Hawk8451's Carb Setup thread in the knowledge base. As far as the residue I recommend a leakdown test.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:03 AM
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Running with the choke on(?) and the plugs were not tightened properly.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:09 AM
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I should mention there's 35k miles on the bike. I'll run a tank through and peak at the plugs again then go from there.

Should I bypass the carb coolant lines?

EDIT - Ok my front pilot has "ftc usa 50k" on it. My front main has "Factory 182k" on it. Are those #50 and #182 jets? Rear pilot "ftc usa 50k". Rear main "Factory 185k".

Maybe I could try picking up some 48 pilots and try moving the 182 to the rear (down from 185) and buy a stock rear 178 and put it in the front (down from 182). Would that be a good starting point?

Last edited by kickerfox; 05-24-2012 at 07:46 AM.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:44 AM
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That is a FactoryPro jet kit. The needles should have 5 grooves. What position are the needle e-clips from the top (flat end)? And how many turns out on the mixture screws from LIGHTLY seated?

Other members have reported over richness with this kit using #50 pilot jets. Turning the mix screws in may help, but many have gone to a smaller #48 jet.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by thetophatflash View Post
Running with the choke on(?) and the plugs were not tightened properly.
You might be right on the plug not being tightened but it would have had to be about finger tight. I'd still do a leakdown to be sure!
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:56 AM
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Well IMHO no you shouldn't remove the carb coolant lines.

Yes you are running way too rich, the carb thread they are referring to gives my opinion on what jets you should run and to kind of answer your question about the 178 jet, if you do that you will have a difference of 2 steps between the carbs and 1 step between them is what the bike likes.

Also #50 pilots are too large and will also give to problems.

So if it was me, I would change both mains and both pilots.
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Old 05-24-2012, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by HRCA#1 View Post
Yes you are way rich and I don't care for the residue on the threads of the plug on the left. Looks like oil residue to me.

As far as jetting I recommend reading Hawk8451's Carb Setup thread in the knowledge base. As far as the residue I recommend a leakdown test.
It could be oil residue, but some people intentionally put a little oil on the threads to make the plugs easier to remove.

In relation to 8451's Carb Setup thread, it is meant for a stock air filter using stock needles. You already have a great jet kit to work with and a cleanable air filter, so if it was my bike I would go this direction.

This thread details a jetting setup that works very well, with a Dyno chart to back it up. Pay attention to post #95 in particular.
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Old 05-24-2012, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by HRCA#1 View Post
You might be right on the plug not being tightened but it would have had to be about finger tight. I'd still do a leakdown to be sure!
It looks like the crush washers were not seated properly. Seen it before.
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Old 05-24-2012, 09:33 AM
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What I decided to do is go back to #48 pilots and run it like that for awhile then check plugs. I can then adjust the needles if need be. I know the idle was pig rich just by the lopyness and smell. It felt 'ok' driving but I've driven two of my friends hawks and they felt much smoother in the midrange. These plugs were so dirty that I'm sure they weren't helping anything.
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Old 05-24-2012, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by BeerHunter View Post
It could be oil residue, but some people intentionally put a little oil on the threads to make the plugs easier to remove.

In relation to 8451's Carb Setup thread, it is meant for a stock air filter using stock needles. You already have a great jet kit to work with and a cleanable air filter, so if it was my bike I would go this direction.

This thread details a jetting setup that works very well, with a Dyno chart to back it up. Pay attention to post #95 in particular.
Sorry but I do have to totally disagree with you..... and calling a dyno jet kit great is a long streak in my book.

Like Tweety I have done extensive testing with the aftermarket filters and found they cause more problems than any gains that might be made by them.

Sure some folks claim that they have done ok or good with them but when looked into deeper they are either the exception or have never run a stock filter so it is hard to judge when you have not actually tried all the products.

Also by looking at your list of mods I do wonder why to still like the dyno jet stuff and recommend it because you have a pretty bastardized set up in your bike. I say this because dyno jet jets are a completely differnt size than keihin jets even if they have the same number on them.

The set up post you referred to states that 180\182 dyno jet jets were used. if you cross reference the numbers that is equivalent to running a 202.5 (or 203) and a 205 keihin main jet Carb Jet Size Cross Reference:Keihin/DynoJet/Mikuni - Honda ATV Forum this is because dyno jet used much fatter needles.

So by your list you have the equivalent of 160\162 main jets in your bike.
Which sounds strange that you would recommend running so much larger jets than what you have to run.

Then the whole extra lift hole idea. This is to get the carbs on to the main jet quicker. While it does work well on I-4 bikes I don't think this is what this big twin wants.

Neither does HRC which is what I based my set up thread on. Personally when it come to setting up Honda carbs, I believe and trust HRC much more than Dyno Jet.

So to say my set up thread is just for stock needles and a stock filter is kind of true, it is not 100% true.

I did say that you will not get much, if any improvement over the stock needles true but it will work just fine with the factory pro needles.

It works just fine with the HRC needles that I run.

I just don't think Dyno Jet will work properly with this bike. Opening the slides faster is not the answer on a engine that already tends to go rich on the front cylinder. That is why HRC saya to plug a lift hole.

Now for the filter, once again, if you just want top end power sure run an after market filter.

On a street bike, you might get it to work ok, if you want to spend the dyno time to get it right but even then you will always end up with a hole in the power band. I have done testing and Tweety has done the testing also but he does have the dyno charts that show this.

In closing I think by now I have a pretty good rep for dealing with these carbs. Sure I don't know everything but feel I have a good handle on them.

With that I will say I spent 2 years trying to get a Dyno Jet kit & K& N filter to work and never had good results. There was always a hole somewhere.

I then went to a HRC kit and was told by Moriwaki to run a stock filter. I then spent a couple of years really analyzing why the bike ran so much better and what was really going on.

Then I decided to share what I had learned in that set up thread. So I have around 4 years of personal testing in the set up I posted and stand behind it as the best place to start with the parts you can get now.

Like I said there, feel free to try what you want and I hope I don't sound like I'm trying to put anyone down or be a know it all as I have been called a couple of times.

It's just I have set up a lot of these bikes and many people think their bike is running really good when in truth it is not.
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Old 05-24-2012, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by kickerfox View Post
What I decided to do is go back to #48 pilots and run it like that for awhile then check plugs. I can then adjust the needles if need be. I know the idle was pig rich just by the lopyness and smell. It felt 'ok' driving but I've driven two of my friends hawks and they felt much smoother in the midrange. These plugs were so dirty that I'm sure they weren't helping anything.
If you want to keep that large of a main jet you will need #45 pilots for it to run....

Then again I have set up full stage 1 engines with smaller mains than that so IMHO you will still be very rich but it is just my opinion
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:07 AM
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For starters you can't take a plug out of a bike that's been running in it for a long time and read it and expect it to be accurate. It's seen choke, no choke, and a variaty of different conditions.

That being said based off what you said is in your carbs for jetting I would agree that it sounds way to fat. My bike had 50 pilots and it popped really bad on decel and had a stumble in the mid RPM range. I did exactly as Hawk said in his thread. I went down to 48 pilots and plugged the one hole in the front slide and it runs great!

I have a full exhaust and a stock air filter on my bike. It's possible that with your K&N the larger mains may be a good idea. I'm just not sure. But as Hawk said I'd go one step between the two so maybe a 178 fr, 180 Rr, or just go back to the 175/178 stock set up and go from there.
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by 8541Hawk View Post
If you want to keep that large of a main jet you will need #45 pilots for it to run....

Then again I have set up full stage 1 engines with smaller mains than that so IMHO you will still be very rich but it is just my opinion
I stand by my comments the other day..LMAO
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by HRCA#1 View Post
I stand by my comments the other day..LMAO
Hell it's just my opinion anyways and I'm just some guy on the 'net so run what you want.
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:33 AM
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The reason I would choose 178f 182r is because I have a 182 already and the 178 is a stock rear. This way I can try 178f 182r and if it's still to rich, I'd only need to grab a 175 and I'd have the OEM set. If not, the 182f 185r can go back in.

Right now it has 182f 185r with a 48p. Apperently it wasn't the idle circuit loading up because now I'm idling lean with occasional popping in the airbox. Unfortunatly I have no idea where the mix screws are set because I couldn't get them out (dremel broke). Depending on where those screws are set will determine what pilots I go with. If the screws are cranked way in it was probably to compensate for the 50 pilots and it's likely the 48s would be ok if I open up the screws a bit. If they are already 2.5~2.75 turns then I'll have to go back to the 50 pilot. I'm experimenting with what I have and seeing what effects it has on the bike. Without a dyno it'll take awhile but will lead me in the right direction.

As I said, the 48s are now lean at idle but my midrange is much much smoother. Top end hasn't changed. That said, if I have to go back to 50 pilots, I might be able to drop the needles to lean out that fat midrange.

On another note, I ran a hole saw down the header to knock that lip off on the right pipe. It sounds better and seems to have even flow from both pipes. I can feel them both at the same distance away from the bike where as before I could feel the left side pushing more exhaust. I also realised my cans are empty. 0.0
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:40 AM
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That was quite a rant, but since we are dealing with a FactoryPro setup in this case, your dislike for the DynoJet setup is wholly irrelevant. The FP jets are virtually identical to Keihin.

I am in no way knocking your setup or recommendations with regard to stock air filter tuning, but you did make a fatal assumption in that thread that Thumper was using a DJ kit, when he clearly stated more than a few times that it was FactoryPro.

And I really do not know where you get the 162 main jet number for my carbs. Right now, I am running Keihin 178/180 mains.

Those charts you refer to are just a general reference and by no means should be viewed as final. I do not believe that even a 10 point difference exists between Keihin and DJ when used on our bikes. I actually think the flow rate differential is less than 5.

Originally Posted by 8541Hawk View Post
Sorry but I do have to totally disagree with you..... and calling a dyno jet kit great is a long streak in my book.

Like Tweety I have done extensive testing with the aftermarket filters and found they cause more problems than any gains that might be made by them.

Sure some folks claim that they have done ok or good with them but when looked into deeper they are either the exception or have never run a stock filter so it is hard to judge when you have not actually tried all the products.

Also by looking at your list of mods I do wonder why to still like the dyno jet stuff and recommend it because you have a pretty bastardized set up in your bike. I say this because dyno jet jets are a completely differnt size than keihin jets even if they have the same number on them.

The set up post you referred to states that 180\182 dyno jet jets were used. if you cross reference the numbers that is equivalent to running a 202.5 (or 203) and a 205 keihin main jet Carb Jet Size Cross Reference:Keihin/DynoJet/Mikuni - Honda ATV Forum this is because dyno jet used much fatter needles.

So by your list you have the equivalent of 160\162 main jets in your bike.
Which sounds strange that you would recommend running so much larger jets than what you have to run.

Then the whole extra lift hole idea. This is to get the carbs on to the main jet quicker. While it does work well on I-4 bikes I don't think this is what this big twin wants.

Neither does HRC which is what I based my set up thread on. Personally when it come to setting up Honda carbs, I believe and trust HRC much more than Dyno Jet.

So to say my set up thread is just for stock needles and a stock filter is kind of true, it is not 100% true.

I did say that you will not get much, if any improvement over the stock needles true but it will work just fine with the factory pro needles.

It works just fine with the HRC needles that I run.

I just don't think Dyno Jet will work properly with this bike. Opening the slides faster is not the answer on a engine that already tends to go rich on the front cylinder. That is why HRC saya to plug a lift hole.

Now for the filter, once again, if you just want top end power sure run an after market filter.

On a street bike, you might get it to work ok, if you want to spend the dyno time to get it right but even then you will always end up with a hole in the power band. I have done testing and Tweety has done the testing also but he does have the dyno charts that show this.

In closing I think by now I have a pretty good rep for dealing with these carbs. Sure I don't know everything but feel I have a good handle on them.

With that I will say I spent 2 years trying to get a Dyno Jet kit & K& N filter to work and never had good results. There was always a hole somewhere.

I then went to a HRC kit and was told by Moriwaki to run a stock filter. I then spent a couple of years really analyzing why the bike ran so much better and what was really going on.

Then I decided to share what I had learned in that set up thread. So I have around 4 years of personal testing in the set up I posted and stand behind it as the best place to start with the parts you can get now.

Like I said there, feel free to try what you want and I hope I don't sound like I'm trying to put anyone down or be a know it all as I have been called a couple of times.

It's just I have set up a lot of these bikes and many people think their bike is running really good when in truth it is not.
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:49 AM
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Do you know if your TPS is adjusted to 500ohms?
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by kickerfox View Post
The reason I would choose 178f 182r is because I have a 182 already and the 178 is a stock rear. This way I can try 178f 182r and if it's still to rich, I'd only need to grab a 175 and I'd have the OEM set. If not, the 182f 185r can go back in.

Right now it has 182f 185r with a 48p. Apperently it wasn't the idle circuit loading up because now I'm idling lean with occasional popping in the airbox. Unfortunatly I have no idea where the mix screws are set because I couldn't get them out (dremel broke). Depending on where those screws are set will determine what pilots I go with. If the screws are cranked way in it was probably to compensate for the 50 pilots and it's likely the 48s would be ok if I open up the screws a bit. If they are already 2.5~2.75 turns then I'll have to go back to the 50 pilot. I'm experimenting with what I have and seeing what effects it has on the bike. Without a dyno it'll take awhile but will lead me in the right direction.

As I said, the 48s are now lean at idle but my midrange is much much smoother. Top end hasn't changed. That said, if I have to go back to 50 pilots, I might be able to drop the needles to lean out that fat midrange.

On another note, I ran a hole saw down the header to knock that lip off on the right pipe. It sounds better and seems to have even flow from both pipes. I can feel them both at the same distance away from the bike where as before I could feel the left side pushing more exhaust. I also realised my cans are empty. 0.0
Well you can run whatever you like. What I will say is that this bike is more than happy to run rich. It will "feel" fine and you can actually think everything is good, that is until you get it right and find out how hard it really can pull. You have kind of proven this in your first post when you said "because it seems to be running ok but the idle is a little rough"

That is just what I have found by tuning a few of them.

Also you have proved that the pilots effect more than just the bottom end. Just like the mains do more than just the top end.

As for removing the restriction, like I said in the other thread, as counter intuitive as it sounds, it was there for a reason and back to back dyno tests with just that change have shown a loose of power by removing it.

Nothing real big but it was measurable. It will also make the carbs a little harder to tune but nothing that can't be taken care of.

as for why I think the stock mains are just fine and all that, it's all in the set up thread i wrote so I won't bore folks by going over it again.
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:59 AM
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>:O Hey you two, get outta my thread! I'm kidding of course. I'm happy to read anything about this bike. 8541hawk, I did read your carb setup thread before I dove into my carbs but having bought the bike used with alot of changes I didn't have much of a base starting point. Best I can do is tweak things this way or that and see if it helps or hurts. Now that I see what the 48 pilots did to my low/midrange I bet I can dial it out with the needles and the idle mix adjustments. My bet is they are both set rich. I need to stuff my cans also. I'm sure that will have an effect on it. Any suggestions for el-cheapo stuffing? Dow-corning? Stainless steelwool? Potatoes?

EDIT - When I said "running ok" I mean it drives ok just running it around. I don't have any misfires or hesitation or something that would indicate a problem other then carbs, like coils or wires, that could also cause unburnt fuel to blacken plugs. I'm not a noob when it comes to engines, just a noob when it comes to a hawk.

Last edited by kickerfox; 05-24-2012 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 05-24-2012, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by BeerHunter View Post
That was quite a rant, but since we are dealing with a FactoryPro setup in this case, your dislike for the DynoJet setup is wholly irrelevant. The FP jets are virtually identical to Keihin.

I am in no way knocking your setup or recommendations with regard to stock air filter tuning, but you did make a fatal assumption in that thread that Thumper was using a DJ kit, when he clearly stated more than a few times that it was FactoryPro.

And I really do not know where you get the 162 main jet number for my carbs. Right now, I am running Keihin 178/180 mains.

Those charts you refer to are just a general reference and by no means should be viewed as final. I do not believe that even a 10 point difference exists between Keihin and DJ when used on our bikes. I actually think the flow rate differential is less than 5.

Well to me it has become funny that instead of just saying that your information is either not very good or just wrong, I try to take the time to give the reasons for why I disagree but then it's just a rant...ok whatever.

Yes I did make a mistake on which kit he was running, sorry I am just human and it can happen.

As for the size jet you are running, well sure different companies jets do flow a bit different but can we just say that the jets you are running have the same size hole as a 160 and a 162 ( though I made a mistake there also..... it is actually the same size hole as a 160\158) dyno jet type jet and let you infer how much fuel it can flow from there?

So have fun with you experimenting.
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Old 05-24-2012, 06:23 PM
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I'm really confused to what you two are arguing about. lol If I have a Factory Pro kit it's equivalent to 160/158?
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Old 05-24-2012, 06:32 PM
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No, the argument is about DynoJet sizing vs Keihin/FactoryPro sizing. Your numbers are as printed on the jets. So are mine.
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Old 05-24-2012, 06:51 PM
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FactoryPro = Keihin? 182=182? 185=185?
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by kickerfox View Post
I'm really confused to what you two are arguing about. lol If I have a Factory Pro kit it's equivalent to 160/158?
No it was my bad as I am talking with 3 other people on PMs about carbs and got myself mixed up a bit... it's hell getting old....lol

So no I wasn't saying you had that size jets, it was a comment about running Keihin mains with DynoJet needles.....

Anyways FactoryPro claims their jets are the same as Keihin so those are interchangeable without any real issue.

So I'll try again with your set up..... I have tried the K&N filter and gave mine away because it always made a hole somewhere in the power band.

Sure you can get 1-2 extra HP on top but always lost approx. 5hp somewhere lower in the power band. Not a good trade off in my book.

The stock filter gives the smoothest power band and the best driveablitiy. I have heard the BMC "street" filter can be used with good results but I have never run one so I can't say if this is true or not.

Other than that, keep leaning it out as your plugs clearly show you are running very rich.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:22 PM
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Somewhere, could be here, I read the K&N is the same size as some car but the poster didn't say which car. He only said it tool awhile to find it going through boxes at the autopart store. I'd rather have something other then K&N anyways. Do you know which filter fits the K&N hole?
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Old 05-24-2012, 08:11 PM
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I don't know how you guys take out the mixture adjusters but I used a 1/16" drill, drilled them 1/8" deep, and jently tapped in a #7 torx bit. I was then able to adjust them with my fingers by holding the torx bit. My front was at 2.5t and rear at 2.75t. Apperently I do need the #50 pilots. I'll put those back in and move on to the slide needle adjustment.
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Old 05-24-2012, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by kickerfox View Post
Somewhere, could be here, I read the K&N is the same size as some car but the poster didn't say which car. He only said it tool awhile to find it going through boxes at the autopart store. I'd rather have something other then K&N anyways. Do you know which filter fits the K&N hole?
I'm not sure what you are asking. The stock air filter drops right into the airbox. Though the upper and lower o-ring will be missing as those need to be pulled out for the K& N filter to fot in the airbox

Last edited by 8541Hawk; 05-24-2012 at 08:16 PM.
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Old 05-24-2012, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by kickerfox View Post
I don't know how you guys take out the mixture adjusters but I used a 1/16" drill, drilled them 1/8" deep, and jently tapped in a #7 torx bit. I was then able to adjust them with my fingers by holding the torx bit. My front was at 2.5t and rear at 2.75t. Apperently I do need the #50 pilots. I'll put those back in and move on to the slide needle adjustment.
You might want to hold off on putting that #50 back in until after seeing where the needle is at now. It could be that raising the needle will make it run properly.

The fix for the K&N is to replace it with a stock filter, which is a dealer only item. It will last maybe 12k miles or so. Check the price on replacements.
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Old 05-24-2012, 08:41 PM
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Location: San Antonio, TX
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Originally Posted by 8541Hawk View Post
Though the upper and lower o-ring will be missing as those need to be pulled out for the K& N filter to fot in the airbox
Will the airbox be damaged if the seals are not removed prior to installing a K&N?
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