Issues with manual CCT change.
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Squid
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 23
From: Lanark, Scotland
Issues with manual CCT change.
Hey,
I was going through the process of replacing my OEM CCT's with Krieger CCT'S today.
I followed the instructions to the letter and used cable ties on the chain. Everything was going great and even removed the OEM CCT with no clicks or anything. I fitted the Krieger and tightened it up accordingly.
The problem came after I removed the cable ties and started to turn over the engine by hand.
I was turning the engine to line the FT mark up in order to change the front CCT.
When I done thin there was a loud click after a quarter turn.
I think the sprocket has jumped from the chain.
Any ideas on what happened and how to fix this. I'm dreading the bill if I take it to my local bike shop.
Thanks
I was going through the process of replacing my OEM CCT's with Krieger CCT'S today.
I followed the instructions to the letter and used cable ties on the chain. Everything was going great and even removed the OEM CCT with no clicks or anything. I fitted the Krieger and tightened it up accordingly.
The problem came after I removed the cable ties and started to turn over the engine by hand.
I was turning the engine to line the FT mark up in order to change the front CCT.
When I done thin there was a loud click after a quarter turn.
I think the sprocket has jumped from the chain.
Any ideas on what happened and how to fix this. I'm dreading the bill if I take it to my local bike shop.
Thanks
Rex Kramer-Thrill Seeker
SuperBike
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,312
From: Brookfield, WI
What method are you using to set the tension? There is an easy was to see if the timing jumped. If your valve covers are off, you can see the markings on the cams. Here's some fantastic step by step instructions for you (with pictures) Click Here
I have personally used that link to install MCCT's into several engines now.
I would recomend using the method of measuring the chain deflection (in the link above), any other way and you are really just guessing.
Not sure how it would have happened, but if your cam(s) skipped a tooth, you make sure that you are on TDC on that cylinder you suspect has jumped, loosen the MCCT, and turn the cam untill the marks line up. By "the marks", I mean there are reference marks on the intake and exhaust cams. If you have a look through that link I provided, you will see exactly what I am talking about.
And if you haven't done so, you can download the Superhawk manual here in the Knowledge Base.
I have personally used that link to install MCCT's into several engines now.
I would recomend using the method of measuring the chain deflection (in the link above), any other way and you are really just guessing.
Not sure how it would have happened, but if your cam(s) skipped a tooth, you make sure that you are on TDC on that cylinder you suspect has jumped, loosen the MCCT, and turn the cam untill the marks line up. By "the marks", I mean there are reference marks on the intake and exhaust cams. If you have a look through that link I provided, you will see exactly what I am talking about.
And if you haven't done so, you can download the Superhawk manual here in the Knowledge Base.
Last edited by CruxGNZ; Aug 16, 2014 at 08:49 AM. Reason: Info
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Squid
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 23
From: Lanark, Scotland
Thanks for the reply.
That's a great link to vtr1000.org and a great write up. Ive been using the guides on this forum.
I have got back to TDC and re adjusted the cams to meet the timing marks RE and RI like the guide says. (I had done that before).
I have tightened up the CCT and now have the correct play on the chain between sprockets.
My only concern now is that I've tightened it up to tight. The CCT has been tightened to almost max. There is one turn left and there will be no more adjustment available.
Is this normal or has something else happened?
That's a great link to vtr1000.org and a great write up. Ive been using the guides on this forum.
I have got back to TDC and re adjusted the cams to meet the timing marks RE and RI like the guide says. (I had done that before).
I have tightened up the CCT and now have the correct play on the chain between sprockets.
My only concern now is that I've tightened it up to tight. The CCT has been tightened to almost max. There is one turn left and there will be no more adjustment available.
Is this normal or has something else happened?
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,707
From: Essex, UK
That doesn't look right. Krieger fitting instructions are based on the VTR1000 site instructions so something's gone awry.
Are you a member over at VTR1000.org as there might be someone near to you in Scotland who can pop over and steer you right.
Are you a member over at VTR1000.org as there might be someone near to you in Scotland who can pop over and steer you right.
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 397
From: UK
IIRC I think Krieger may have shorted the rear tensioner even more so not so long ago. I have not seen one screwed in as far as that before but have seen them pretty close to as far as they can go.
I'm wondering whether you was on the compression stroke when you cable tied (tie wrapped) the sprockets and removed the old tensioner. This could make things jump. If it has jumped a few teeth then it's no bigge to sort out. Just don't go trying to start the engine.
(:-})
I'm wondering whether you was on the compression stroke when you cable tied (tie wrapped) the sprockets and removed the old tensioner. This could make things jump. If it has jumped a few teeth then it's no bigge to sort out. Just don't go trying to start the engine.
(:-})
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Squid
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 23
From: Lanark, Scotland
I checked the timing and I was 2 teeth out on the exhaust cam and a whopping 6 teeth out on the inlet. It took one hell of a jump. Got that all sorted out now and timed in properly.
The front cylinder was a doddle.
I think I had to much slack on the chain when I thought I had finished the rear cylinder. I hadn't read the vtr1000.org guide until it was posted earlier.
Finally everything checked out with the measurements and there were no unusual noises when I turned the engine over by hand.
I think the bolt must have been shorter than usual and that's why it looks like its wound in so much.
I have done them both now and rebuilt the bike. It idled fine for around 2 minutes then died. No unusual noises or anything.
I think it cut out cause of a fuel flow issue. Going to try and work that out today. I will check all the connections and seals.
The front cylinder was a doddle.
I think I had to much slack on the chain when I thought I had finished the rear cylinder. I hadn't read the vtr1000.org guide until it was posted earlier.
Finally everything checked out with the measurements and there were no unusual noises when I turned the engine over by hand.
I think the bolt must have been shorter than usual and that's why it looks like its wound in so much.
I have done them both now and rebuilt the bike. It idled fine for around 2 minutes then died. No unusual noises or anything.
I think it cut out cause of a fuel flow issue. Going to try and work that out today. I will check all the connections and seals.
Last edited by strathern; Aug 18, 2014 at 12:14 AM.
Junior Member
Squid
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 9
From: Rapid City, SD
I put my Krieger CCTs in a few weeks ago and mine looks about like that. I thought something might be wrong so I pulled it apart and put it all back together again and it's all good. The rear one is just really short for some reason.
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 397
From: UK
Good to hear you got it sorted strathern.
Better than being so long that your spanner/socket keeps getting caught on the brake line or earth strap. LOL Krieger have always had one shorter but recently they have gone even more extreme with how short they can go. I like it, there's no reason for a great big thread that is not used to be sticking out so far.
(:-})
The rear one is just really short for some reason.
(:-})
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Squid
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 23
From: Lanark, Scotland
Got it fired up and running. I missed attaching one hose. The wee vacuum line that connects to the fuel tap. DOH!
The engine sounds different now. Will need to get used to it. It changes like expected when it gets warm.
Took it out for a spin and developed some oil leaks! One on the real cylinder at the cam chain tensioner and one at the front cam cover. I've sorted the rear one out but the front has made a right mess. Sprayed oil over the wheel, callipers, radiator and fan. I think I'm going to remove the cover again and seal it up with a good layer gasket sealer or something.
Almost there.
The engine sounds different now. Will need to get used to it. It changes like expected when it gets warm.
Took it out for a spin and developed some oil leaks! One on the real cylinder at the cam chain tensioner and one at the front cam cover. I've sorted the rear one out but the front has made a right mess. Sprayed oil over the wheel, callipers, radiator and fan. I think I'm going to remove the cover again and seal it up with a good layer gasket sealer or something.
Almost there.
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,707
From: Essex, UK
It's recommended to use some threadlock on the tensioner threads to both make it is oil tight and to ensure it can't unwind. As for the leaky cam cover just apply a few small dabs of silcone on the cam cover gasket to keep it aligned when replacing the cover - no need to smother it.
Make absolutely sure brake discs and pads are thoroughly degreased!
Make absolutely sure brake discs and pads are thoroughly degreased!
Last edited by Wicky; Aug 18, 2014 at 06:17 AM.
European Member
Back Marker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 194
From: Netherlands
Good to hear you got it sorted strathern.
Better than being so long that your spanner/socket keeps getting caught on the brake line or earth strap. LOL Krieger have always had one shorter but recently they have gone even more extreme with how short they can go. I like it, there's no reason for a great big thread that is not used to be sticking out so far.
(:-})
Better than being so long that your spanner/socket keeps getting caught on the brake line or earth strap. LOL Krieger have always had one shorter but recently they have gone even more extreme with how short they can go. I like it, there's no reason for a great big thread that is not used to be sticking out so far.
(:-})
i thougt i put the front cct on the rear but it seems normal
ive put 2 locknuts on the thread, threadlock on the bolts
and heat proof silicone on the gasket (small amount)
and when reusing valve cover gaskets i always use alot of sealent to keep ik in place when mounting mostly and for proper seal
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,871
From: Phoenix, AZ
Highly likely the cam cover rubber gasket just didn't seat properly. No gasket sealer is necessary except in the round part of the little half moons. It can get twisted and the little rib doesn't set right and it dumps all over (ask me how I know). Also, make sure to check that the four gasket cover bolts have the washers with them. Some leakage comes from raw CCT's, so it's good practice to put blue loctite or gasket sealer on them before installing.
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 397
From: UK
It was indeed a little on the slack side when I filmed it. It wasn't meant to be exact as I mainly wanted to show how a ruler can be used and where to take the measurement from, so a little extra slack in the chain exaggerates and shows it clearly. Some folk get confused as to where to start and finish the measurement.
(:-})
(:-})
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,871
From: Phoenix, AZ
I think the metal expands causing tolerances to get smaller, which in turn means the system is "tighter" when it's warm. Hence why properly adjusted ones rattle slightly when they're stone cold. Not that yours are adjusted wrong or Mr Eyeball's are right, just pointing out a correction in the theory.
European Member
Back Marker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 194
From: Netherlands
yeah but everything heats up and expands when the engine is stone cold the camchain is so tight it doesnt touch the cct guide thats why it rattles it just the guide ratteling but when the engine is warm the chain expands and the engine goes quit although thats my theory
as i pulled the cam cover with the engine still somewhat warm
just to put in a new gasket i had laying around and never put in.
but i noticed the chain had more play then dead cold
as i pulled the cam cover with the engine still somewhat warm
just to put in a new gasket i had laying around and never put in.
but i noticed the chain had more play then dead cold
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Squid
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 23
From: Lanark, Scotland
Pulled the front cam cover off today. One of the washers had went AWOL on me. That was the source of the leak. I found it though. No more oil leaks. Just a wee bit of weeping on the rear CCT but I will catch that tomorrow.
Rode it for 10 miles today and only one issue left to resolve. Bike won't rev past 7000rpm. I will check all the hoses and carb rubbers. Think it might be something wrong in there. Prob another hose I missed.
I'm determined to get her perfect for our anniversary!
Rode it for 10 miles today and only one issue left to resolve. Bike won't rev past 7000rpm. I will check all the hoses and carb rubbers. Think it might be something wrong in there. Prob another hose I missed.
I'm determined to get her perfect for our anniversary!
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,871
From: Phoenix, AZ
yeah but everything heats up and expands when the engine is stone cold the camchain is so tight it doesnt touch the cct guide thats why it rattles it just the guide ratteling but when the engine is warm the chain expands and the engine goes quit although thats my theory
as i pulled the cam cover with the engine still somewhat warm
just to put in a new gasket i had laying around and never put in.
but i noticed the chain had more play then dead cold
as i pulled the cam cover with the engine still somewhat warm
just to put in a new gasket i had laying around and never put in.
but i noticed the chain had more play then dead cold
All of the links of metal expanding in the chain (and sprockets) make the chain tighter. This means that the rollers expand and the links expand, which means the tolerances are smaller, which means that the chain actually is shorter. Imagine a standard chain link- as you make the links fatter, they have less room to be pulled apart and so the chain would be shorter (despite the whole system expanding). Same thing happens with the sprockets- as they expand they have a very slightly larger radius and interface, so they make a larger route for the chain to run.
This same theory works in the opposite way in a bicycle or motorcycle drive chain. The system doesn't actually "stretch" over time (as you adjust it) but the rollers and links all wear down from rubbing against each other for a few hundred rides. This slight wearing makes the system ever so slightly loser, which gives a little more tolerance so the chain is slightly longer when you add all of those little gaps up and pull on it. The actual measurement of each link will be the same, it's just wear in the system.
Could just be that your chain was loser because you had it at a slightly different TDC level or rotated the crank bolt backwards a little or something?
Last edited by 7moore7; Aug 22, 2014 at 12:09 PM.
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Squid
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 23
From: Lanark, Scotland
Had a root around and I cannot see anything abnormal.
Took the bike out for a wee run again today and still not getting past 7000rpm. It will rev the full way when on idle but under load I have the problem.
Another issue I am noticing is a lot of vibration at 1200rpm idle. + or - 200 and no shakes. There's no knocking and squealing. Engine sounds good though.
And finally, when decelerating I am hearing a lot of popping from the exhaust. A lot more that normal (pre CCT change).
Opinions?
Took the bike out for a wee run again today and still not getting past 7000rpm. It will rev the full way when on idle but under load I have the problem.
Another issue I am noticing is a lot of vibration at 1200rpm idle. + or - 200 and no shakes. There's no knocking and squealing. Engine sounds good though.
And finally, when decelerating I am hearing a lot of popping from the exhaust. A lot more that normal (pre CCT change).
Opinions?
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 397
From: UK
Your timing is wrong. Do a search for 180 degrees out.
I'll start you off.
www.vtr1000.org • View topic - Help
(:-})
I'll start you off.
www.vtr1000.org • View topic - Help
(:-})
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Squid
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 23
From: Lanark, Scotland
Cybercarl, you're a Cybergod. Thanks for the link!
Took me 45 minutes to do. Took the bike out for a spin and she's working perfectly. No issues at all.
I have the biggest smile on my face now. The bike is ready for our 5th anniversary and the girlfriend is happy cause I saved £240 on labour charges.
Thank you everyone who contributed and helped me through the change over. Wasn't as bad as I thought.
Took me 45 minutes to do. Took the bike out for a spin and she's working perfectly. No issues at all.
I have the biggest smile on my face now. The bike is ready for our 5th anniversary and the girlfriend is happy cause I saved £240 on labour charges.
Thank you everyone who contributed and helped me through the change over. Wasn't as bad as I thought.
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