Technical Discussion Topics related to Technical Issues

How low can you go in 6-th gear, how many revs?

Old 06-28-2010, 12:16 PM
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How low can you go in 6-th gear, how many revs?

hello riders!
i am asking you how low you can go in 6-th gear?
how low the engine is reving before going rough?
i can go below 2500 rpms in 6-th gear.

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Old 06-28-2010, 12:23 PM
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Yea. 2500 is about it before it starts lugging. But why would you want to ride that way? Fuel economy? Just wondering.
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Old 06-28-2010, 12:32 PM
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Well mine will pull cleanly from 1500 rpm but I also have cleaned up ports, a HRC jet kit and a lightened flywheel. Even so it really it's all that happy below 3k and I tend to keep it above 5k when I'm riding
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Old 06-28-2010, 12:35 PM
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Like 8541Hawk my bike isn't entirely stock, and it will pull from around 2000 and up, but why on earth you would go below 3000 in normal riding is a mystery to me... It's not good for fuel economy either... You are defintely not in the part of the powerband that the engine likes...
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Old 06-28-2010, 01:05 PM
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Despite the urban myth about the low-rpm power of v-twins, they do not like to pull from low rpms (the shuddering should be an indication to any sane person). If you want to pull from low rpm, get a Bandit 1250, you will not be disappointed.....
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Old 06-28-2010, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mikstr View Post
Despite the urban myth about the low-rpm power of v-twins, they do not like to pull from low rpms (the shuddering should be an indication to any sane person). If you want to pull from low rpm, get a Bandit 1250, you will not be disappointed.....
+1 Even though mine will pull from that low (and the only reason I know that is from testing the porting job to make sure I didn't get the intakes too smooth which would cause problems with the boundary layer and end up with low end stumble) I never let the RPM's get anywhere near that low.

For me, on "everyday" riding I'm normally between 4-6k and if it's a "brisk" ride well I keep it between 6-9k (well it has seen the 10.3k rev limiter a couple of times....lol), 'cuz that's where the real fun lives.
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Old 06-28-2010, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by mikstr View Post
Despite the urban myth about the low-rpm power of v-twins, they do not like to pull from low rpms (the shuddering should be an indication to any sane person). If you want to pull from low rpm, get a Bandit 1250, you will not be disappointed.....
This is absolutely correct.

I did the Californian Superbike School Level 1 where you ride the track in 3rd gear without brakes. This sometimes makes the engine revs drop low.

The danger is if you snap the throttle open whilst slowing down it can cause engine whip, where the crank slightly over runs the engine speed and as you accelerate it it whips back and can snap the con rod at the piston connection "eye".

RD has seen 3 Firestorms and an SP have this exact problem after doing this drill and thinks it could happen to any V-twin.

So personally, I wouldn't drop the revs low at all....
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Old 06-30-2010, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by steve29 View Post
Yea. 2500 is about it before it starts lugging. But why would you want to ride that way? Fuel economy? Just wondering.
i was worried that my bike has problems.
in my area there is no other honda vtr to compare., there's only straight hondas
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Old 06-30-2010, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by V-king View Post
hello riders!
i am asking you how low you can go in 6-th gear?
how low the engine is reving before going rough?
i can go below 2500 rpms in 6-th gear.

in order to redeem yourself and to prove that you really are the V king, please tell us the most rpms you can get out of sixth gear.
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Old 06-30-2010, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by nath981 View Post
in order to redeem yourself and to prove that you really are the V king, please tell us the most rpms you can get out of sixth gear.
I know that answer.....
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Old 06-30-2010, 08:44 PM
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There is a couple of other issues with the engines when loading them up down low. It places a lot of load on the crank and rod bearings. This load also occurs when there is little hydrodynamic lubrication, this can allow the bearings and journals to come into contact (normal operation they are separated by the oil) and cause premature failure. Another problem is cam chain slap. Singles and v twins are more prone to this than say an IL4. Anyone that works on a lot of agricultural model bikes or quads will see the effects of this one quite often.
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Old 06-30-2010, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by colinlinz View Post
There is a couple of other issues with the engines when loading them up down low. It places a lot of load on the crank and rod bearings. This load also occurs when there is little hydrodynamic lubrication, this can allow the bearings and journals to come into contact (normal operation they are separated by the oil) and cause premature failure. Another problem is cam chain slap. Singles and v twins are more prone to this than say an IL4. Anyone that works on a lot of agricultural model bikes or quads will see the effects of this one quite often.
Can you say hammered bearings and rod knock? Downshift!
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Old 07-01-2010, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by colinlinz View Post
There is a couple of other issues with the engines when loading them up down low. It places a lot of load on the crank and rod bearings. This load also occurs when there is little hydrodynamic lubrication, this can allow the bearings and journals to come into contact (normal operation they are separated by the oil) and cause premature failure. Another problem is cam chain slap. Singles and v twins are more prone to this than say an IL4. Anyone that works on a lot of agricultural model bikes or quads will see the effects of this one quite often.
you've convinced me. With the paultry hydrodynamic lubrication characteristics of the superhawk, I've decided to unhook my plow/mower attachment and vow never to perform ag tasks again. thanks.
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Old 07-01-2010, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by 8541Hawk View Post
I know that answer.....
that info can garner you a hefty fine and a 365 day vacation from riding, huh.
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Old 07-01-2010, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by nath981 View Post
that info can garner you a hefty fine and a 365 day vacation from riding, huh.
Only if someone see you do it.......
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Old 07-01-2010, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by nath981 View Post
you've convinced me. With the paultry hydrodynamic lubrication characteristics of the superhawk, I've decided to unhook my plow/mower attachment and vow never to perform ag tasks again. thanks.
I don't know what it is with farmers, but they do seem to like to lug their engines. My father in law does it all the time. I was talking to a technical trainer from Honda (AU). He was saying that this market sector was where they do experience a lot of timing chain, guides, and CCT failures, mainly because they lug their engines a lot, rather than let them rev. Oh, and just to clarify that slightly, the trainer was talking in general manufacturer terms, not just Honda. He was tech trainer with Suzuki (AU) before moving to Honda.

Just to clarify the hydrodynamic lube remark. My apologies if this old news. Engine slipper bearings are designed to a diameter that will take advantage of this style of lubrication. As the linear speed between the bearing and the journal increases, a wedge of oil is formed. This increases the oil pressure acting between the two moving parts, and keeps them separated. Sort of like water skiing, when you go fast you sit on top of the water, when you slow down you sink below it. With this in mind, engines that are designed to rev slowly will have a larger circumference journal, so that an adequate speed differential can be maintained. Like most things, you can have too much of a good thing, so there will also be a speed differential that will be too high. That's why engines that spin at high rpm have to consider not going too large in circumference.

I sometimes think that the VTR is too good an engine. As has been stated already, Vtwins are usually more snatchy down low. The VTR's willingness to rev low and not become as snatchy could lead people into using this area of operation more than they would with another Vtwin. Whether this will be a problem I have no idea, but it is something I try and avoid. Whether this has had anything to do with my lack of CCT failures (80'000+klm without a problem) I can't say, but I am happy to keep trend going and see what happens.
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Old 07-01-2010, 07:25 PM
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The BMW R100RS that I owned for 15 years would cruise all day at 2500 rpm. But My first ride to work on my SuperHawk in '05 told me, through my seat of the pants dyno, that the VTR prefers to run at 3000 rpm and higher.

My wife's SV650S doesn't like it much below 4000 rpm (11,000 rpm redline). It comes down to...the higher the redline, the higher the cruising rpm. You can run a Harley at 1500 rpm all day, but look at the redline...I haven't checked lately, but I think it's something like 4500 rpm for a Harley.
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Old 07-01-2010, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by VTRsurfer View Post
The BMW R100RS that I owned for 15 years would cruise all day at 2500 rpm. But My first ride to work on my SuperHawk in '05 told me, through my seat of the pants dyno, that the VTR prefers to run at 3000 rpm and higher.

My wife's SV650S doesn't like it much below 4000 rpm (11,000 rpm redline). It comes down to...the higher the redline, the higher the cruising rpm. You can run a Harley at 1500 rpm all day, but look at the redline...I haven't checked lately, but I think it's something like 4500 rpm for a Harley.
Actually I think most of them, the newer at least is somewhere between 5000 and 6000... The V-Rod actually has a 9000 rpm redline...
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Old 07-01-2010, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
Actually I think most of them, the newer at least is somewhere between 5000 and 6000... The V-Rod actually has a 9000 rpm redline...
Thanks for the update Tweety. The only Harley I've ever ridden was a 1980 Low Rider that my former brother-in-law bought out of salvage (it had been hit on the right side) and beautifully put back together. And that was 25 years ago.
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Old 07-01-2010, 08:23 PM
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While not a Harley owner myself.. I do think that Harley bashers should try riding a new Harley at least once. (Rent one some weekend when you are out of town)

They are not the POS bikes of the 80's anymore.
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Old 07-01-2010, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by colinlinz View Post
I don't know what it is with farmers, but they do seem to like to lug their engines. My father in law does it all the time. I was talking to a technical trainer from Honda (AU). He was saying that this market sector was where they do experience a lot of timing chain, guides, and CCT failures, mainly because they lug their engines a lot, rather than let them rev. Oh, and just to clarify that slightly, the trainer was talking in general manufacturer terms, not just Honda. He was tech trainer with Suzuki (AU) before moving to Honda.

Just to clarify the hydrodynamic lube remark. My apologies if this old news. Engine slipper bearings are designed to a diameter that will take advantage of this style of lubrication. As the linear speed between the bearing and the journal increases, a wedge of oil is formed. This increases the oil pressure acting between the two moving parts, and keeps them separated. Sort of like water skiing, when you go fast you sit on top of the water, when you slow down you sink below it. With this in mind, engines that are designed to rev slowly will have a larger circumference journal, so that an adequate speed differential can be maintained. Like most things, you can have too much of a good thing, so there will also be a speed differential that will be too high. That's why engines that spin at high rpm have to consider not going too large in circumference.

I sometimes think that the VTR is too good an engine. As has been stated already, Vtwins are usually more snatchy down low. The VTR's willingness to rev low and not become as snatchy could lead people into using this area of operation more than they would with another Vtwin. Whether this will be a problem I have no idea, but it is something I try and avoid. Whether this has had anything to do with my lack of CCT failures (80'000+klm without a problem) I can't say, but I am happy to keep trend going and see what happens.
thanks for the clarification. I never lug engines with the exception of the 400 Cummins Diesel I had in my big ole Autocar. Lugged that baby down often haulin heavy but it never hurt it. Appreciate the interesting Kevin Cameron type info.
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Old 07-01-2010, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by lazn View Post
While not a Harley owner myself.. I do think that Harley bashers should try riding a new Harley at least once. (Rent one some weekend when you are out of town)

They are not the POS bikes of the 80's anymore.

Contrare my friend. It's like buying a new 1936 ford, but paying the price of 2010 mustang, the exception being the V-Rod which is not a true hog. I have ridden one during a demo ride at daytona and wasn't favorably impressed. They make antiquated, overpriced garbage and should have been bankrupt long ago if not bailed out by tariffs imposed on foreign manufacturers.
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Old 07-02-2010, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by nath981 View Post
Contrare my friend. It's like buying a new 1936 ford, but paying the price of 2010 mustang, the exception being the V-Rod which is not a true hog. I have ridden one during a demo ride at daytona and wasn't favorably impressed. They make antiquated, overpriced garbage and should have been bankrupt long ago if not bailed out by tariffs imposed on foreign manufacturers.
Hmm, they are all fuel injected (unlike our VTR) they last pretty good, they no longer leak, they all (at least stock) handle pretty well, their paint and chrome is better than anyone else, ABS is available, etc etc..

What is antiquated about them? The fact that they aren't OHC? So what? Neither is a Corvette ZR1. The fact that they are aircooled? Again, so what? Less to break.

Sure they could upgrade those things and get more horsepower, but they don't need more horsepower.. You can't expect a train to corner like a lotus.. for their purpose they are good.

Are they overpriced, image bound, status symbols? Yes I will totally agree with that.

But are they 1937 technology?? They are higher tech than the VTR.. So take that as you will.

If you are going to bash them, do so intelligently, not for things they no longer are.
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Old 07-02-2010, 03:02 PM
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Not to get into an argument about OHC vs OHV, but the early '90s ZR1 had a DOHC 32 valve engine. However, down low it didn't perform any better than a standard pushrod V8 Corvette of the same year. Chevrolet dropped it because of the cost of the engine, and because in around town driving it was lacking in low rpm torque. And it cost almost double the standard 'Vette, at $90,000 if I recall.
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Old 07-02-2010, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by lazn View Post
Hmm, they are all fuel injected (unlike our VTR) they last pretty good, they no longer leak, they all (at least stock) handle pretty well, their paint and chrome is better than anyone else, ABS is available, etc etc..

What is antiquated about them? The fact that they aren't OHC? So what? Neither is a Corvette ZR1. The fact that they are aircooled? Again, so what? Less to break.

Sure they could upgrade those things and get more horsepower, but they don't need more horsepower.. You can't expect a train to corner like a lotus.. for their purpose they are good.

Are they overpriced, image bound, status symbols? Yes I will totally agree with that.

But are they 1937 technology?? They are higher tech than the VTR.. So take that as you will.

If you are going to bash them, do so intelligently, not for things they no longer are.
I don't make enough money nor would i if I could spend it on doctored up, dressed up, inferior products made by companies that clearly don't care about putting out quality products, yet have no issues charging exorbitant prices for them. Using those **** engines did Buell in and HD couldn't even build their own V-Rod. They have to let foreign companies or others like S&S do the job right. Compare HD, general motors, ford with honda or any other similar competitive progressive company and the obvious thing that pops out at you is that you don't get what you pay for, you don't get real value for your money in terms of quality, and that's enough of a deterrent for me.

They make high profits for low quality products and that's why companies like these should no longer exist. For example, when the japanese suv's became popular, ford dressed up their explorer and sold it for comparble prices. Of course it was masked junk and it later surfaced that they made $10,000 profit on each Ford Explorer. These things were overpriced, japanese wannabe masqueraders. The japanese did a hell of a lot better than ford at their HD simulations.
It took the american people way longer than me and way longer than it should have to realize the agenda of these second rate companies. HD wouldn't even be here if consumers were at all discerning and/or were looking beyond the name. If you think that HD or these bailed out domestic automakers compare favorably with real companies like Honda, BMW, Aprilia, KTM, Toyota, etc. then that's your perogative. Trade you antiquated SH in for one of those modern high tech hogs with slapped on fuel injection, ABS brakes and superior chrome see if you're happy with what you got for your money.

Argue intelligently! you mean like a lawyer? maximize the importance of little things and minimize the main points. Well it does work I guess...OJ got away with a couple murders.
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Old 07-03-2010, 07:26 AM
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Nath..."Using those **** engines did Buell in and HD couldn't even build their own V-Rod. They have to let foreign companies or others like S&S do the job right. Compare HD, general motors, ford with honda or any other similar competitive progressive company and the obvious thing that pops out at you is that you don't get what you pay for, you don't get real value for your money in terms of quality, and that's enough of a deterrent for me".

Not sure if my Buell Lightning has a **** engine, mine's an 03 1000cc and honestly runs sweet, never been a problem and all I've really done is oil changes! not one oil leak, not one misfire, so no complaints..

That said, I personally am not a HD fan, but you have to say kudos to one of the best marketing and branding turnarounds of the 20th Century. If folks keep buying 'em, they'll keep building 'em, a la GM, Ford and the rest!

Last edited by CANADAVTR; 07-03-2010 at 07:28 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old 07-03-2010, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by lazn View Post
.. You can't expect a train to corner like a lotus.. for their purpose they are good.
And I heard a lotus will corner as if it were on rails...
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Old 07-03-2010, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by CANADAVTR View Post
Nath..."Using those **** engines did Buell in and HD couldn't even build their own V-Rod. They have to let foreign companies or others like S&S do the job right. Compare HD, general motors, ford with honda or any other similar competitive progressive company and the obvious thing that pops out at you is that you don't get what you pay for, you don't get real value for your money in terms of quality, and that's enough of a deterrent for me".

Not sure if my Buell Lightning has a **** engine, mine's an 03 1000cc and honestly runs sweet, never been a problem and all I've really done is oil changes! not one oil leak, not one misfire, so no complaints..

That said, I personally am not a HD fan, but you have to say kudos to one of the best marketing and branding turnarounds of the 20th Century. If folks keep buying 'em, they'll keep building 'em, a la GM, Ford and the rest!
don't mean to bad mouth your bike. I liked the buell and their dedication to light weight, mass centralization and other innovations, however i would not go there with a HD engine. I was encouraged when they adopted the european engine but then they were dumped. sad situation. Oh but they had enough money to buy MV Augusta. **** companies would have been out of business except for crooked gov't officials authorizing bail outs.

As far as people buying them despite their poor value I have to say that these are people who trade in every three to five years meaning that anything will last that long. In spite of this, they still would have went down which would have been justice for all the years they put out poor quality products, bought out patents for fuel efficient technologies and buried them, intentionally programmed failures to encourage buyers to trade more often, etc., etc.
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Old 07-04-2010, 08:35 AM
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Hi Nath...no worries mate! I did'nt take your comments personally, and agree with your thoughts about HD as a brand! And if they would have kept the Buell with the Rotax 1125...

Funnily enough, I needed a new battery for the Buell so went to the HD store in Oshawa yesterday. $143 poorer now! Took a look around all the HD stuff...marketing at its finest..but I agree 100% with you...the bikes are big, lardy and wayyyy too much money! Even the '06's were almost $20K.

So Saturday afternoon, to offset the pain of a $143 battery, I went out on the VTR for 3 hours. Two gas of gas and the best fun you can buy for $3,000. Bargain!
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Old 07-05-2010, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by CANADAVTR View Post
Hi Nath...no worries mate! I did'nt take your comments personally, and agree with your thoughts about HD as a brand! And if they would have kept the Buell with the Rotax 1125...

Funnily enough, I needed a new battery for the Buell so went to the HD store in Oshawa yesterday. $143 poorer now! Took a look around all the HD stuff...marketing at its finest..but I agree 100% with you...the bikes are big, lardy and wayyyy too much money! Even the '06's were almost $20K.

So Saturday afternoon, to offset the pain of a $143 battery, I went out on the VTR for 3 hours. Two gas of gas and the best fun you can buy for $3,000. Bargain!
that's cool. Don't dislike Harley riders, some are very nice people. Personally couldn't buy a ford, chevy, chrysler, harley, et al, unless they were priced well below better brands and only if i couldn't afford to buy better. For example, I'd buy a toyota with 100,000 miles on it before I'd buy a new ford or chevy. People who don't have to keep vehicles over time(those who trade often) often don't notice or care, however those of us who can't or don't, find out the truth through direct experience, i.e., the way that teaches. Well, we managed to highjack this freakin thread, huh!
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