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fuel injection

Old 01-08-2013, 09:12 AM
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fuel injection

so this has been on my mind quite a bit and im wondering if it was possible to convert the carbs to fuel injection? If so what all mods are needed?
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Old 01-08-2013, 09:20 AM
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You just need an air fluctuation valve, fuel pump and flash the ECU. CA models need a new O2 sensor as well, but that's easy to install. Can be done in a weekend. I don't see why more people don't do it myself.
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Old 01-08-2013, 09:35 AM
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any kind of sensors?
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Old 01-08-2013, 09:39 AM
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lol

OP, you could start here:

Amazon Amazon

Or if not, just realize that this is one of those "if you have to ask" questions...if you don't already know what it would roughly take to convert it it isn't a project you are prepared to undertake
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Old 01-08-2013, 09:49 AM
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A VTR1000F... With Fuel Injection?!?!? - SuperHawk Forum

You need a lot of stuff. I've not seen any documentation of it done on a VTR.
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Old 01-08-2013, 09:58 AM
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I figured the RC51 setup would work? similar motors? maybe its worth a try.
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:19 AM
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what you need is the electrics from honda varadeo 1000
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=go...w=1137&bih=534
as its fi and the same engine tho it has a 5 speed box
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:46 AM
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A Greek VTR owner claims to have done it by transplanting in a Varadero engine, FI & electrics, though no pics or any other details were forthcoming.
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by lloydievtr View Post
what you need is the electrics from honda varadeo 1000
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=go...w=1137&bih=534
as its fi and the same engine tho it has a 5 speed box
IIRC, the first editions of the Varadero had a 5-speed, later versions have 6.....
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Old 01-08-2013, 06:27 PM
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but does anybody know if an RC51 setup would work?
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by lloydievtr View Post
what you need is the electrics from honda varadeo 1000
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=go...w=1137&bih=534
as its fi and the same engine tho it has a 5 speed box
The Injected Varadero's are 6 speed
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by mikstr View Post
IIRC, the first editions of the Varadero had a 5-speed, later versions have 6.....
Just noticed....you beat me to it
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:39 AM
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where can i find said parts?
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:04 PM
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Find a late '03> Honda Varadero XL1000V breaking? ebay/gumtree...

Originally Posted by sethnelsonnc View Post
where can i find said parts?
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:12 PM
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Also remember the Valadero used smaller cams and made less HP\Torque than a VTR so you might loose power with this set up as it "might" not have the fuel delivery potential needed.
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by 8541Hawk View Post
Also remember the Valadero used smaller cams and made less HP\Torque than a VTR so you might loose power with this set up as it "might" not have the fuel delivery potential needed.
Nothing that a power commander and some clever mapping wouldn't fix surely??
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by VeeTR View Post
Nothing that a power commander and some clever mapping wouldn't fix surely??
thats what I was thinking. the PC5 works with the FI system on that bike. So an afternoon on the dyno would work magic. any idea what kind of hp gain I would have once tuned?
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:09 PM
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I would imagine very little hp gain or mpg gain, if any, compared to a properly tuned carb setup. FI is easier to map and can really increase mpg in modern cars (when they do things like stop the injection when the car is decelerating and adjust it to temperature/altitude/speed/etc), but once the fuel is in the cylinder, it doesn't care how it got there.

I know I'm missing key points like atomization here, but what I'm really curious about is what you are looking for? Are you just looking for a fun and different project, or looking for performance gains? B/C there are a whole list of performance things that are way above fuel delivery that you can tackle with much more noticeable results IMO.

BTW my first response was tongue in cheek...
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by VeeTR View Post
Nothing that a power commander and some clever mapping wouldn't fix surely??
That will fix the mapping issues as long as the 42mm throttle bodies can keep up. For reference the SP1 uses 54mm throttle bodies and the SP2 had 62mm throttle bodies (and the HRC units were even bigger)

As for power I would expect no real noticeable gains to be had.

If there are any, I doubt it would be cost effective as a STG 1 engine build would probably be less money after you figure in the ECU, wiring harness and all the other bits you would need to source.

I'm not saying it isn't a worth while project, just don't expect any major power gains by doing it.

Last edited by 8541Hawk; 01-09-2013 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 8541Hawk View Post
That will fix the mapping issues as long as the 42mm throttle bodies can keep up. For reference the SP1 uses 54mm throttle bodies and the SP2 had 62mm throttle bodies (and the HRC units were even bigger)

As for power I would expect no real noticeable gains to be had.

If there are any, I doubt it would be cost effective as a STG 1 engine build would probably be less money after you figure in the ECU, wiring harness and all the other bits you would need to source.

I'm not saying it isn't a worth while project, just don't expect any major power gains by doing it.
Agreed,I really can't see there being much(if any?) power gains but I guess the real beauty is in the form of ease of access to fueling changes and also the more direct response you feel through the throttle on a well tuned Fi bike
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:44 PM
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From what I understand, get some FCR carbs if you want immediate direct response... all mechanical linkage and no computer processing to slow it down...
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by 7moore7 View Post
From what I understand, get some FCR carbs if you want immediate direct response... all mechanical linkage and no computer processing to slow it down...
FCR's mmmmm!!!!! haha. Yeah I'm a carb man at heart too
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:26 AM
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I've just been curious about it and it seems like a decent project for the winter. I will most likely end up going with the FCR carbs until I can get the resources for FI. I would just like to improve reliability.
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Old 08-29-2013, 04:17 PM
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Hi All,

Andrew here from Tri Pod Cars. I developed a three wheeler around a Firestorm rear end and engine sometime ago and are now manufacturing them as kits.

One of the biggest pains in the development of this contraption has been the changes that needed to be made to airflow around the airbox and in turn the completely out of proportion trouble that has caused with the way the carbs operate. I am over it and as much as I have the thing running quite well (17,000kms travelled since I put it on the road last October) I know it can be way better.

Injection is the answer!

I have had some SP1 throttle bodies here for a while but haven't really had a close look at them due to time needing to be spent in other areas of development of the Tri Pod 1 but having recently re attempted an improvement in the way the carbs work with the assistance of logging of mixture etc via an Innovate MTS set up. I am now re motivated to get the EFI project underway (ie. These carbs and airbox drive me crazy and i am going to move on...).

Looking closely at the RC51 TBs and he Hawk carbs it is hard to see any similarities. Angle, distance apart, TB size etc are all different. BUT nothing that can't be sorted. At least the throttle cable is in the same place!

On the ECU front a Microsquirt is in order. It will do the job and I have used the MS2V3 before with excellent and stable results. It will be a fuel only set up at this stage but the Microsquirt will handle ignition when I'm feeling brave. I will use an external pump (space not at such a premium on the three wheeler) and the airbox will need to be built from scratch and will no doubt be a job that sucks.

Improvements I am looking for are power, smoother fueling and economy. At the moment I am down in top end, have a few flat spots here and there and the economy is woeful (30MPG).

The Honda carby set up is possibly the flakiest piece of Honda engineering I have seen. It does work quite well when everything is exactly as per orig factory set up and condition but the well known fact that you cannot even change to a different filter without it all going out of whack means its dodgy and surely injection will be an improvement.

I first researched fitting efi to the VTR on this forum probably 5 years ago and it seems still no one has done it?

Now is the time for me either way. If someone has done it I would love to swap experiences and thoughts.

Regards, Andrew.
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Old 08-29-2013, 04:29 PM
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I would like to see a pic of your bike cc Andrew!
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Old 08-29-2013, 05:23 PM
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Old 08-29-2013, 08:08 PM
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That three wheeler is ****!

Edit: For anyone else wanting to see more of the vehicle above Tripod cars

Edit again: I see you still have the factory CCT's. You might want to think about changing them to manuals or do the "stopper mod". Also, I noticed a linear actuator, and I'm assuming it has something to do with engaging reverse. How does it work? You know, you should start a new thread here about your vehicle, so this fuel injection thread doesn't get muddy'd up. I can only assume there are others with a lot of questions.

Edit yet again: Never mind, I found your FAQ page!

Last edited by CruxGNZ; 08-29-2013 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 08-29-2013, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Tri Pod Cars View Post
That's a beaut! Great look machine and thank you for the pic!
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Old 05-04-2014, 02:09 AM
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Ok so I'm back!

I realise its been a while but I have been busy building clients chassis, panel kits etc, oh and running another business that makes enough money to keep me in the kit car business...

Last week I started pulling the carbs off the machine and set them aside for the carb burning party if I could make this thing work.

I had previously designed and had cut on a waterjet machine some brackets (to hold the TBs at the correct angle) and welded and machined some manifolds that bolt to the top of the RVT1000 TBs. They are the appropriate height to allow fitment of the original airbox at the factory installed position.

Anyway I started by sitting the throttle body assembly in place and hoping that one day it would deliver just the right amount of fuel at the right time and save me from the horror of the carby...

I think I mentioned previously the use of the Microsquirt V3 ECU. I hadn't used the uS before but really its more or less the same as a Megasquirt which I was familiar and like most things in the electronic world it had only gotten better.

So wiring began, followed by high pressure fuel plumbing/pumping/filtering. Much arseing around then occurred getting all sensors, ignition signal, etc etc working as needed. Funny how the universe puts up barriers to this sort of project to add some extra frustration (injector dead for no obvious reason, spark plug dead for no obvious reason, firmware gets corrupted for no obvious reason, opto input on microsquirt blows up for obvious reason).

Day by day I progressed until I had it started, then it started without fiddling with the throttle, then it blipped rather nicely, then I drove it 'round the block and today I have done 100kms. 100kms of the best driving I have done in this three wheeled thing.

Much smoother everywhere, no flat spots, soo much crisper in the throttle response department, crisper intake noise, just starts, same crappy fuel economy...

But it is far from tuned yet. So many things to fiddle with and adjust until its just right.

I am incredibly happy with the outcome in the trike. On two wheels I feel the improvement would be greater in some ways. It will change the character of the Superhawk though. It will be a faster more modern feeling machine that may not suit all tastes...?

Kit of parts and pre programmed ECU to save you all the trouble coming soon as a number of my trike customers want to do the mod and I suspect there maybe a few VTR/Superhawk owners looking for a way 'round the road to nowhere that Hondas fueling solution is/was.

Regards, Andrew.

PS. Pic is missing 'horns' that sit inside airbox (that aren't made yet) and some kind of wrap on the wiring loom.

PSS. No have manual CCTs and have also deleted PAIR valve thingies.
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Old 05-04-2014, 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by CruxGNZ View Post
That three wheeler is ****!

Edit: For anyone else wanting to see more of the vehicle above Tripod cars

Edit again: I see you still have the factory CCT's. You might want to think about changing them to manuals or do the "stopper mod". Also, I noticed a linear actuator, and I'm assuming it has something to do with engaging reverse. How does it work? You know, you should start a new thread here about your vehicle, so this fuel injection thread doesn't get muddy'd up. I can only assume there are others with a lot of questions.

Edit yet again: Never mind, I found your FAQ page!
Hi,

Yep linear actuator is indeed to lower the sprocket onto the top of the final drive chain that is in turn driven by a 450 watt 24v motor that does a pretty good job of driving the three wheeler backwards when required. I use the un used wiper switch on the columns original switchgear to change between 12 and 24v (for two reverse speeds) and the squirter button to actually apply power to the motor (via relays of course). All works pretty well with a neutral lockout and manual switch to avoid any embarrassing 'reverse' moments at speed.

Hadn't driven the thing much lately until today as the carbies were extra messed up after the 1500kms of dirt/dust/corrugated road they had suffered on my trek to the northern tip of Australia last year. I had forgotten what a hoot the thing is to chuck around. I'm not stopping riding on two wheels anytime soon but this thing is a great alternative if you need one, and so much more interesting than a so called 'sports car'. My opinion of course is totally unbiased!!

Andrew.
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