CCT has me sick to my stomach
05-16-2007, 06:08 PM
#1
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CCT has me sick to my stomach
Well. I can't say that I am stunned, given all of the CCT threads going on. In one of them, Greg ends up mentioning that the stock CCT's can be tested by pulling the sealing bolt and giving the engine a crank while trying to turn the CCT counterclockwise (with the kill switch off). He also mentioned that it would spring back to its original position if turned clock wise (with the bike off of course). Well, I am sure I am a bit paranoid, what with a new-to-me bike with 33k on the clocks and what appear to be stock CCT's in it, but on my ride home I was sitting at a light and was SURE I could hear cam chain noise. At first I thought I was being paranoid, and my Bandit engine is noisey by nature, so I was trying to deny it at first. I got home and decided to give it the tweak I mentioned above. Got the appropriately short screwdriver out, and decided to give it a tweak counterclockwise before even stabbing the starter button. It turned a bit. Eeek. So I turned it a bit clockwise, and sure enough it sort of sprung back. But not very far. So I hit the starter button while turning it CCW and was stunned when I was able to keep turning it CCW! I thought the freakin screwdriver had slipped out of the slot...but no. Baffled, I stopped. Gave it a turn CW and it doesn't spring back. WTF?!? Broken spring maybe? I am totally paranoid now, and refuse to touch the starter button until I get some feedback...so let me have it. Yeah I know...order the Manual APE ones. I will do that as soon as I get off of this post. I just want to know if I am insane to fire it up before the new tensioners are in my hands...
Help!
-R
Help!
-R
05-16-2007, 06:31 PM
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Well. I can't say that I am stunned, given all of the CCT threads going on. In one of them, Greg ends up mentioning that the stock CCT's can be tested by pulling the sealing bolt and giving the engine a crank while trying to turn the CCT counterclockwise (with the kill switch off). He also mentioned that it would spring back to its original position if turned clock wise (with the bike off of course). Well, I am sure I am a bit paranoid, what with a new-to-me bike with 33k on the clocks and what appear to be stock CCT's in it, but on my ride home I was sitting at a light and was SURE I could hear cam chain noise. At first I thought I was being paranoid, and my Bandit engine is noisey by nature, so I was trying to deny it at first. I got home and decided to give it the tweak I mentioned above. Got the appropriately short screwdriver out, and decided to give it a tweak counterclockwise before even stabbing the starter button. It turned a bit. Eeek. So I turned it a bit clockwise, and sure enough it sort of sprung back. But not very far. So I hit the starter button while turning it CCW and was stunned when I was able to keep turning it CCW! I thought the freakin screwdriver had slipped out of the slot...but no. Baffled, I stopped. Gave it a turn CW and it doesn't spring back. WTF?!? Broken spring maybe? I am totally paranoid now, and refuse to touch the starter button until I get some feedback...so let me have it. Yeah I know...order the Manual APE ones. I will do that as soon as I get off of this post. I just want to know if I am insane to fire it up before the new tensioners are in my hands...
Help!
-R
Help!
-R
05-16-2007, 06:37 PM
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How do you figure I didn't have it engaged? I turned it CCW, which is putting more tension on it while turning it over on the starter. I only turned it CW when the engine wasn't moving.
-R
-R
05-16-2007, 06:42 PM
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05-16-2007, 09:51 PM
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What he is trying to say is you now have no idea if the cam chain jumped a tooth on the sprockets or not and you have two options.
Hit the button and see if you bend a valve or not, Good luck if you try this.
Or remove the valve cover(s) and timing inspection cap and crank cap and manually turn the engine over per manual and check the cam for proper alignment with the top of the head while on the correct timing mark.
You should never be hitting the button kill switch off or not to check timing and or getting the thing around to a timing mark.
Use the manual, use a 1/2" drive ratchet and correct socket to carefully turn the engine over.
Atleast with the vavle covers off and using a ratchet you will know whether you now have atiming problem and hard parts hitting each other.
I just finished installing my APE's last week.
If you don't know what you are doing ask for help or you may cause major engine damage trying to fix a rattle.
05-16-2007, 11:25 PM
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If you think your CCT is stuck or malfunctioning try removing the small 8mm hex bolt in the middle and get a small flathead screwdriver. Stick it in there and turn a bit in the counter-clockwise direction while cranking the motor with the engine cutoff switch OFF. If it moves then it's getting stuck. If not then give it one rotation in the clockwise direction to give it some exercise. It will spring back to it's original position. Replace the bolt. Sometimes mechanical things just like to move to work right.
05-17-2007, 12:29 AM
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Ross, don't worry. I have a full grasp of what you did...since I recommended it. The cam chain has to be VERY loose to skip a tooth. If everyone else needs verification of how this POS OEM CCT works then here is a pic of one taken apart. Only the plunger part moves back and forth. The threaded part is stationary in the body. As you can see turning it CCW moves the plunger OUT, thus tightening the cam chain.
05-17-2007, 06:08 AM
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Hmmm... just curious... should he have done this while @TDC?
In any case, if you're not 100% sure you haven't skipped a tooth, then rather than starting the bike & fragging the valve train... I'd recommend turning the crank by hand first to make sure everything's running in synch first. I'm no mechanic tho', so I share your paranoia.
In any case, if you're not 100% sure you haven't skipped a tooth, then rather than starting the bike & fragging the valve train... I'd recommend turning the crank by hand first to make sure everything's running in synch first. I'm no mechanic tho', so I share your paranoia.
05-17-2007, 08:13 AM
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Ross, don't worry. I have a full grasp of what you did...since I recommended it. The cam chain has to be VERY loose to skip a tooth. If everyone else needs verification of how this POS OEM CCT works then here is a pic of one taken apart. Only the plunger part moves back and forth. The threaded part is stationary in the body. As you can see turning it CCW moves the plunger OUT, thus tightening the cam chain.
i'd probably give it a little turn CCW before starting it up since he now knows it's loose. ( it will however work it's way loose again by the deflection of the chain on that POS spring )
btw: adjusting your APE by the instruction is a starting point - you need to fine adjust it with the motor running. ( you find a middle point from the rattle to the whine )
this is a great tip & test for everyone with stock CCT's. i didn't see it in my reading on this board - would make a good sticky hawkrider !
tim
05-17-2007, 08:19 AM
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I'm confident nothing has skipped. What I am not confident about is how loose the front one is, since I got multiple turns out of the rear one, taking up tension where it had backed off over time. I suspect the front may be the same, and I am not going to go to the trouble of dinkin' around with it, since the APE's should be here in a matter of a few days. My worry was that I am really chancing it by driving it until they show up. So I won't. Besides the Aprilia really is a fun commuter. 
Thanks for the concern guys. I really do appreciate that everyone is looking out for each other on this board! 
-R
Thanks for the concern guys. I really do appreciate that everyone is looking out for each other on this board! -R
05-17-2007, 09:32 AM
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one thought. I looked at these and played around with them when I had my engine apart for a rebuild. The CCTs were working fine, but the tension they apply is preset by the spring tension. You can always turn them CCW beyond when tension the spring has applied - in effect overtensioning the chains. That may be what you experienced. once they are screwed beyond the preset tension, undoing that a little wouldn't be expected to result in them springing back - you are already beyond the perset tension. If you are checking if they are applying the proper tension, I would use the same routine used for the APE tensioners and examine the effect on noise to see if they are too loose or not - again not overtightening them though. If you search I remember a post about simply converting the honda part to a manual adjuster by a bolt and locknut if I recall - simply eliminating the automatic part of the device.
05-17-2007, 10:10 AM
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Been thinking of replacing my stock CCT's (11,500 miles on a RED '98). Called my local bike shop and they quoted me 5 hours at $66 per hour with me supplying the APE tensioners. The mechanic insists the CCT's really don't fail that often. I think I will order some off ebay tonight and swap them myself next weekend (taking plenty of time).
05-17-2007, 10:46 AM
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one thought. I looked at these and played around with them when I had my engine apart for a rebuild. The CCTs were working fine, but the tension they apply is preset by the spring tension. You can always turn them CCW beyond when tension the spring has applied - in effect overtensioning the chains. That may be what you experienced. once they are screwed beyond the preset tension, undoing that a little wouldn't be expected to result in them springing back - you are already beyond the perset tension. If you are checking if they are applying the proper tension, I would use the same routine used for the APE tensioners and examine the effect on noise to see if they are too loose or not - again not overtightening them though. If you search I remember a post about simply converting the honda part to a manual adjuster by a bolt and locknut if I recall - simply eliminating the automatic part of the device.
-R
05-18-2007, 09:43 AM
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Been thinking of replacing my stock CCT's (11,500 miles on a RED '98). Called my local bike shop and they quoted me 5 hours at $66 per hour with me supplying the APE tensioners. The mechanic insists the CCT's really don't fail that often. I think I will order some off ebay tonight and swap them myself next weekend (taking plenty of time).
05-18-2007, 09:51 AM
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I have been wondering if CCT failures are an urban legend and everybody simply replaces them out of fear. If it was true wouldn't your mechanic tell you they needed replaced just to make $300? Anyway, I searched this forum to see if there was ever a poll taken to see how many people have actually had them fail. Did find one from 2004 (I think) but it only had one response. Not sure how to start a poll but would definitely be interested in finding out just how many people have actuall failed their stock CCT's.
Also, some of the signatures list APE tensioners while most don't. I hate to be paranoid about every little noise but I would also hate to lock up my engine.
Also, some of the signatures list APE tensioners while most don't. I hate to be paranoid about every little noise but I would also hate to lock up my engine.
05-18-2007, 10:04 AM
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I have been wondering if CCT failures are an urban legend and everybody simply replaces them out of fear. If it was true wouldn't your mechanic tell you they needed replaced just to make $300? Anyway, I searched this forum to see if there was ever a poll taken to see how many people have actually had them fail. Did find one from 2004 (I think) but it only had one response. Not sure how to start a poll but would definitely be interested in finding out just how many people have actuall failed their stock CCT's.
Also, some of the signatures list APE tensioners while most don't. I hate to be paranoid about every little noise but I would also hate to lock up my engine.
Also, some of the signatures list APE tensioners while most don't. I hate to be paranoid about every little noise but I would also hate to lock up my engine.
my front CCT was a bit loose when i bought the bike & my R/R just went out last month.
if your not a do-it yourself type person have them installed on your next trip to have the valves adjusted , they're going to have to take the covers off anyway so the added shop fee should only be 1 hr. - you can buy the APE's
on ebay for around $100/ set
tim
05-18-2007, 10:05 AM
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I have been wondering if CCT failures are an urban legend and everybody simply replaces them out of fear. If it was true wouldn't your mechanic tell you they needed replaced just to make $300? Anyway, I searched this forum to see if there was ever a poll taken to see how many people have actually had them fail. Did find one from 2004 (I think) but it only had one response. Not sure how to start a poll but would definitely be interested in finding out just how many people have actuall failed their stock CCT's.
Also, some of the signatures list APE tensioners while most don't. I hate to be paranoid about every little noise but I would also hate to lock up my engine.
Also, some of the signatures list APE tensioners while most don't. I hate to be paranoid about every little noise but I would also hate to lock up my engine.
what brings in more revenue? a 5 hour job to replace cct's? Or how many hours for fixing the damage caused by a failed cct? imho, if a mechanic tells you this he is trying to get easy money.
05-18-2007, 11:36 AM
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CCTs apparently DO fail.
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ead.php?t=5689
I'll be replacing mine tonight before the ride to the mountains tomorrow. I was planning on waiting, but after I read the above link, I decided not to wait any longer.
05-18-2007, 11:55 AM
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I would imagine its a very tiny percentage of SH that are affected. the very small percent of SH buyers represented here are real enthusiasts: we worry about things, we spend a lot of money to get 3 more HP, we replace good parts with better parts. maybe we put on enough miles that some might see failures at specific mileages. But I'm betting in real world terms, its insignificant. For what its worth, when rebuilding mine I with mods, I asked someone many of us consider to be one of the US experts on SH about replacing them. He said the stock units are fine. My two cents. In reading posts here it seems checking and replacing them, incorrectly at least, has resulted in at least as many problems as the stock units. And for those non -DIY people, I'm not sure replacing an automatic unit with one that requires a small (but definite) effort to check, is the best solution in the greater good.
05-18-2007, 12:54 PM
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I would imagine its a very tiny percentage of SH that are affected. the very small percent of SH buyers represented here are real enthusiasts: we worry about things, we spend a lot of money to get 3 more HP, we replace good parts with better parts. maybe we put on enough miles that some might see failures at specific mileages. But I'm betting in real world terms, its insignificant. For what its worth, when rebuilding mine I with mods, I asked someone many of us consider to be one of the US experts on SH about replacing them. He said the stock units are fine. My two cents. In reading posts here it seems checking and replacing them, incorrectly at least, has resulted in at least as many problems as the stock units. And for those non -DIY people, I'm not sure replacing an automatic unit with one that requires a small (but definite) effort to check, is the best solution in the greater good.
I would agree that most of you have written, but will say that with an interference motor, and even the POSSIBILITY of catastrophic failure, I will happily check tensions on the cam chain every so often. Ran a car shop for the better part of seven years. Saw way too many shattered bits of valve due to timing belt/chain breakage or tensioner failure. While it may not be in imminent danger of a failure, if it does fail it won't just leave me stranded. It'll leave me stranded and cost considerable $ for me to fix. Piece of mind is worth it to me.
-R
05-18-2007, 01:30 PM
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right, but you are the perfect guy for them. You will do the right preventative maintenance, and will check the tensioners at the required, and infrequent at that, required intervals and adjust properly. Many people don't even check/adjust/lube their drive chains correctly - I'm sure that is why honda went to an automatic system. Some of the people I see riding dirt bikes and their maintenance habits are outrageous (bad and good). So replacing them for that subgroup would be a mistake. It would just be nice if there was a mileage at which they should be replaced etc, like timing belts. But we have no data on failures/mileage etc.
05-18-2007, 01:54 PM
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Cliby,
Again, I agree with you. By an large, I think automatic anything for the average non "enthusiast" may be best. Its like point and shoot cameras. I love photography, and like my cameras fully manual, or at least be able to over-ride the autos. People get the urge come springtime to go buy a bike. They don't want a project, and they don't want to be botherered to learn their machine and all that makes it tick. They want to turn the key, hit the button and ride off into the sunset. Often these types don't have the skills to safely operate a motorcycle...but that's a whole other subject.
Honda, for its part, could have a more fail safe tensioner. That's all there is to it. The one on my Bandit isn't perfect either, and I hear the cam chain, but it at least rachets and wont drop tension entirely. Same on my Kawi. Haven't checked the Aprilia yet. Nonetheless, Its a less than awesome design. If all it does is allow the cam chain to make noise, I can live with that. Unfortunately, every once in a blue moon, it apparently does much worse than that. As I deal with mechanical carnage all day long, the less that happens in my garage, the better!
-R
Again, I agree with you. By an large, I think automatic anything for the average non "enthusiast" may be best. Its like point and shoot cameras. I love photography, and like my cameras fully manual, or at least be able to over-ride the autos. People get the urge come springtime to go buy a bike. They don't want a project, and they don't want to be botherered to learn their machine and all that makes it tick. They want to turn the key, hit the button and ride off into the sunset. Often these types don't have the skills to safely operate a motorcycle...but that's a whole other subject.
Honda, for its part, could have a more fail safe tensioner. That's all there is to it. The one on my Bandit isn't perfect either, and I hear the cam chain, but it at least rachets and wont drop tension entirely. Same on my Kawi. Haven't checked the Aprilia yet. Nonetheless, Its a less than awesome design. If all it does is allow the cam chain to make noise, I can live with that. Unfortunately, every once in a blue moon, it apparently does much worse than that. As I deal with mechanical carnage all day long, the less that happens in my garage, the better!
-R
05-19-2007, 08:22 PM
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I failed.
My R/R was bad when I got the bike, so I replaced it with an R1 R/R. Now the charging system works. Learned that info here.
Yes, I believe the percentage of SH owners who have CCTs fail is small, but telling them that won't cost them any less to fix it. The APE CCT has no spring or pawl/ratchet to fail, thus is destined to last longer than anything else on the bike, as long as it's installed responsibly. Learned that info here.
05-21-2007, 09:52 AM
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I've talked to the parts guy at the local honda dealer about the subject, he knows for a fact that the superhawks and also cbr's have the problem. it's no myth like some mechanics will have you believe.
what brings in more revenue? a 5 hour job to replace cct's? Or how many hours for fixing the damage caused by a failed cct? imho, if a mechanic tells you this he is trying to get easy money.
what brings in more revenue? a 5 hour job to replace cct's? Or how many hours for fixing the damage caused by a failed cct? imho, if a mechanic tells you this he is trying to get easy money.
05-23-2007, 11:23 AM
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Ok. They are in. Between work, a bunch of gigs, and a root canal yesterday, I haven't had the time I wanted to devote to it, but last night was able to fire her off again. Ya-know...the Honda factory manual could be a hell of a lot more helpful than it really is. Oh well. Rode it into work. The front is louder than I want it to be, but I am afraid of getting them too tight. I had the front a little quieter last night, but then it seemed to balk a little bit at wanting to start, so I backed it off a bit. Also with the intake snorkel being right there, its a little harder to discern the cam chain noise than it is in the rear. Also they sound different front to back because on the front the tensioner is on the intake side of the head, which is leaning forward to boot, and on the rear its on the exhaust side and tilted back. That combined with not being able to easily reach the lock nut, makes it a PITA to adjust and tighten the front one. Nevermind the slight oil leak coming from it. I ordered two tensioners off of ebay and noted that I would like gaskets and to charge me for two, but I never got charged and they never got sent. So I used Hylomar, which held fine on the rear, but of course, isn't sealing on the front. I grabbed some gasket paper at work today and will make a couple of gaskets myself. Oh well. I'm getting to where I LOVE pulling the tank on the S-Hawk...Not. Now to get my chain and sprockets on that showed up on Friday....
-R
-R
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