Modifications - Performance Discuss aftermarket and DIY performance modifications

want a little more power

Old 02-05-2008, 02:37 PM
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want a little more power

I plan to do some performance mods to my 04 in the next few months. I have a buddy with a dyno in his garage and he is an excellent bike tuner.
My questions are as follows...

1. Does the K&N actually make more power (with proper tuning) or does it take away some mid giving the impression of more top because of the ramp of power?
2. Are there any air box mods worth doing? Does it need any? My sv had a "de snorkel" mod where you make the 1.25" dia intake hole into about a 4 x 6 hole(the size of the filter itself) which is supposedly the best mod that can be done on it worth nearly 5 hp.
3. Without doing head work or tearing into the engine for pistons/rods/cams, what is the typical best hp and tq #'s attainable? I live at 640ft elevation, so the dyno never has any correction factor unless it is 115 degrees outside. I should be able to see very true numbers and the guy is a good friend so I know they will be accurate.

I plan to do a baseline set of dragstrip runs and dyno session, then do any decided on mods so I can see an actual difference. I don't know what I am making right now, but I hope to gain a little midrange and 5-8 hp and same for torque. Maybe a little more it if is possible.

Do you guys/gals have any advice or suggestion/experience with the same thing in the past?

Thanks, I will update the post when mods start.
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Old 02-05-2008, 02:49 PM
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1) Some folks here say the K&Ns work great but I'm not one of them. My bike would never run right with one, so I'm back to a stock air filter and per HRC and Moriwaki you make the best dyno #'s with the stock filter.

2) Again some folks will say yes, but your best bet is to leave the air box alone. All the mods I have seen are only good for making the intake tract louder. Which might make one believe they are making more power but is not really the case.

3) You should be seeing around 100 hp and between 60-70 ft-lbs of tq
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Old 02-05-2008, 03:35 PM
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i'm looking into the same thing, let us know what you run at the track, i take it you are going to drag race it? good luck with it.

my best is 7.3 @ 99mph
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Old 02-05-2008, 04:33 PM
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1) I've had good results with the K&N. It's been my observation that the people who have issues are running Dynojunk jet kits, which is what I believe to be the problem, not the air filter. Factory Pro jet kits seem to perform better and are easier to tune.

2) Reports by experts like Roger @ Revolution Racing says messing with the airbox actually hurts power. Leave it alone.

You aren't going to get anywhere close to 5-8hp gains out of just an air filter and tuning. Even pipes won't get you in that neighborhood. You need to dig into the engine in order to get more than 2-3hp increase. Your buddy should have already told you this.
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Old 02-05-2008, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by JamieDaugherty View Post
1)

You aren't going to get anywhere close to 5-8hp gains out of just an air filter and tuning. Even pipes won't get you in that neighborhood. You need to dig into the engine in order to get more than 2-3hp increase. Your buddy should have already told you this.
I haven't talked to him about any mods yet so I don't really know what to expect. All I know is my gsxr 750, 98 model, first FI year, we made about 55 dyno passes in one day and managed about a 5hp gain out of just tweaking things like tps, playing with appropriate oil levels, oil viscosity and air box mods. we did all items independeltly of each other and some items by them self did nothing but made good gains in combination with other things.
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by 98honda View Post
i'm looking into the same thing, let us know what you run at the track, i take it you are going to drag race it? good luck with it.

my best is 7.3 @ 99mph

It is solely a street bike, but with a dragstrip 5 miles from you house, why not use it as a testing ground.

Mainly with this thread i was hoping for ideas or suggestions poeple could make that may add a little boost of power.

I was hoping to not have to tear into the internals, but if that is what it takes...I do have the capabilities of milling and my friend is a hell of a cyl head porter. I have seen some substantial gains on his dyno after some port work.
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:12 PM
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The K+N uses plastic or rubber block offs to cover the separate chambers in the air box that provide filtered air for the carburettors as the diaphragms move up and down. I'm sure there are better ways to express that.
The block offs are integral with the stock air filter and the BMC.
I learned the hard way that the two block offs are not identical. While I was in a sleep deprived state I put the block offs on the wrong chambers. The bike ran very poorly which isn't surprising since the carbs were drawing in air that hadn't passed through the K+N.
When I took the bike to a very capable tuner who was not familiar with VTR's and the bike was on the dyno, the tuner lifted the air box lid and filter to see if the bike ran better when it was a bit leaner. It was a great idea but the chamber block off came off when the filter was lifted unbeknownst to the tuner. When I checked the air box a little while later, one chamber had the little foam filter in it and the other didn't. That probably was the cause of a little stalling problem I had.
I eventually got the bike jetted properly. It had a BMC filter in it at the time. When the BMC was dirty, I swapped it with the K+N and made sure that the block offs were installed properly. The performance of the bike was identical.
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:04 PM
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the only reason I would consider a k and n or bmc is because i pulled mine out this weekend to find it is VERY dirty and even a little deformed. i mainly like the ability to clean and re-use the filter. i just wanted to make sure it would either be on par with stock or make more power but not lose.
Where is a good place online to look for internal parts such as pistons, cams, etc?
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Old 02-05-2008, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by 434josh View Post
All I know is my gsxr 750, 98 model, first FI year, we made about 55 dyno passes in one day and managed about a 5hp gain out of just tweaking things like tps, playing with appropriate oil levels, oil viscosity and air box mods. we did all items independeltly of each other and some items by them self did nothing but made good gains in combination with other things.
You can also see a horsepower increase of 1-1 1/2 hp by just playing with the tire pressure. I have seen it done with a Duc 999. The dyno can be fooled.....

If you want a little more power: without cracking the engine, throw in a jet kit.
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Old 02-06-2008, 06:43 PM
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Mine runs a Dynojet kit, K&N filter and has a non standard exhaust.

Installed and tuned by Roger. (he's 30 miles from me, its ace)

It dynoed with Blue Flame cans at 107bhp and with very very restricted MIG cans at 100bhp. Most turn in figures around 105bhp with cans and a jet kit. Saying that though, don't you guys have weird welds in your exhausts?

Stage 1 street tune (with engine mods) ups it to 118bhp and a full stage 1 street tune (with Moriwaki bits) ups it to 125bhp.

Best I've seen is 140bhp from the RUMI built race bike.



Rumi Superbike VTR specs: 140bhp, 163Kg, Moriwaki and Robby Moto Engineering parts, WP suspension front and rear, Arrow pipe, Marvic Penta Magnesium wheels, reinforced rear swingarm, 520 chain, CF airbox, Brembo brake parts, engine heavily modified.

And theres always the Moriwaki bike:



[homer simpson]Mmmm... Moriwaki[/homer simpson]

Still, results from a properly set up aftermarket filter, jet kit and exhaust will give you "only" 5-7bhp gain, the difference in throttle response and engine behaviour is worth more than the power. Much smoother, freer revving and better fuel consumption.
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Old 02-07-2008, 03:21 AM
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nice
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Old 02-07-2008, 04:30 AM
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I would like to see the build sheet on that mtr.

Where can I find Mori parts? When I do a google search, all I find are bikes for sale that have the parts I want on them?
Are there any US distributors for the cams?
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Old 02-07-2008, 05:44 AM
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If you really want to see power output gains, and seat of the pants feel, buy a set of rims. Look at the cycleworld.com article on wheels. You would be very foolish to do engine upgrades (cams, pistons, etc) before doing wheels. They are expensive, but the net result will show dyno numbers, and responsiveness in turning (something engine bits cant do).
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Old 02-07-2008, 07:38 AM
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That's what I was going to say...

Nothing else will make as big a difference in the behavior in acceleration, braking and directional changes as wheels.

Engine work is fun, though. There are a couple sets of Moiwaki cams on ebay right now.
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Old 02-07-2008, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by RCVTR View Post
That's what I was going to say...

Nothing else will make as big a difference in the behavior in acceleration, braking and directional changes as wheels.

Engine work is fun, though. There are a couple sets of Moiwaki cams on ebay right now.

I am not sure if I am spelling the name right or not, but i can't seem to find any on ebay.
searched for Moriwaki, VTR cams, your spelling of Moiwaki and get sorry, no results found.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:16 AM
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Moriw...spagenameZWD1V
Don't know why they're listed in pedals and pegs.
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Old 02-07-2008, 01:43 PM
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So..y my spe..ing was a little off
The cams are a bit pricey. But I paid $750 for mine. Made up for the $50 used pistons I got from Bob.



My inspiration when I was building mine. Before they put wheels, swingarm and superbike exhaust on it. I'll never forget when Bob brought his new, titanium Moriwaki VTR exhaust system over. I haven't been the same since.

Wheels were the 1st thing I bought for my track bike, knowing now what I didnt know then.

Last edited by RCVTR; 02-07-2008 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 02-07-2008, 01:46 PM
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what wheels did you end up with?
were they alum or mag?
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Old 02-07-2008, 02:18 PM
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Actually, I'm not sure that picture is not of a Moriwaki-built street-going replica of their racebike. They may have built it to showcase their streetbike components.

I found a set of forged magnesium Marchesine RC51 wheels on closeout. Mine were $2100. New ones are $2900! Mine are 16.5s, which I didn't want or need. But since it won't see the street, I'll run 16.5 slicks.

I think the aluminum wheels are about $1800-$2000 from the Marchesini distributor. The problem is, they don't make wheels for the VTR. And the V-twin engine has a unique rear sprocket offset. An RC51 rear wheel may fit. The front rotors are different. It won't be easy to find wheels that fit.

I talked with the Marchesini distributor about interchangability between rotor and cush drive adapters. People were saying that the wheels are all the same. Only the adapters are different. I was thinking I could buy a set of GSXR1000 17" mags and sell GSXR 16.5" mags and end up with 17s for my RC51. She told me that was not the case at all. The only thing that would work is a set of CBR1000RR wheels. She said I could buy a set for $2900. I guess magnesium is in short supply. Probably the Chinese again.

RC51 wheels are hard to find. Your best bet may be to find a set of CBR900RR cast mags. I'm pretty sure that's what the VTR race crowd used. I think you have to modify the cush drive to get the chain alignment right. It seems lots of people use the stock CBR wheel and don't worry about chain line. That may be an option. I'm sure there are others.
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Old 02-07-2008, 02:22 PM
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You could look into what was done to this one on page 80 of this pdf: http://eprints.usq.edu.au/54/1/TravisMAUGER-2004.pdf

Still only 130hp though
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Old 02-07-2008, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by lazn View Post
You could look into what was done to this one on page 80 of this pdf: http://eprints.usq.edu.au/54/1/TravisMAUGER-2004.pdf

Still only 130hp though

I am actually shooting to end up with 120-125. At least that is the number in my head and that is if I have a baseline right now of 100-105.
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Old 02-07-2008, 02:41 PM
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118-120 is possible with the stock redline, pistons, porting, decking OS valves and stage 1 cams. Lighten the flywheel too.
130+ HP requires a higher redline and stage 2 cams. Higher redline means rods, crankhaft lightening, valve springs, $$$.
The stage 1 engine is really reasonable for a home builder.

I've spewed endlessly about that engine configuration. I'll spare everyone here

An RC51 engine can make 140 RWHP with stock cams, HC pistons and head work. Just a thought...

I wouldn't build an RC51 street bike. Damn, I miss my VTR...

Last edited by RCVTR; 02-07-2008 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 02-07-2008, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by RCVTR View Post
118-120 is possible with the stock redline, pistons, porting, decking OS valves and stage 1 cams. Lighten the flywheel too.
130+ HP requires a higher redline and stage 2 cams. Higher redline means rods, crankhaft lightening, valve springs, $$$.
The stage 1 engine is really reasonable for a home builder.

I've spewed endlessly about that engine configuration. I'll spare everyone here

An RC51 engine can make 140 RWHP with stock cams, HC pistons and head work. Just a thought...

I wouldn't build an RC51 street bike. Damn, I miss my VTR...
just out of curiosity, why are pistons necessary for the 118-120 range? Is it for compression or strength?
I am absolutely comfortable tearing into the engine, I have built 600+hp/600ftlb V8 motors for my drag car in my garage. I am ok at port work on a car head, but not sure about cycles. never tried.
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Old 02-07-2008, 03:24 PM
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pistons and decking are for higher combustion pressure and faster combustion, which = more torque.

My porting was based on the idea that the basic port configuration is already pretty good. A smaller radius at the bottoms for a flatter floor and lots of blending. People who have done flow testing or lots of dyno testing may have more to offer. That was the methodology passed on to me.

the stock ports look really good when you compare them to some of the car stuff. I built an MR2 engine last year and those ports were unbelievably bad in stock form. I basically made Honda ports out of them. the guy I built it for lost interest in the project. I think the engine is sitting on a pallet in his garage.
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Old 02-07-2008, 03:55 PM
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Here you go. Nothing fancy, but it worked. My RC51 ports came out better. When you get tired of grinding, walk away and come back when you are fresh. I plugged the PAIR port by turning an aluminum rod ~.010 undersize and inserted it from the top of the head. Bonded in place with JB weld and blended it to the port.







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Old 02-07-2008, 05:13 PM
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Nice work. Now what did all those hours give you on the dyno? You probably won't say, but was it worth it at least?

I plan to go see my friend this weekend to see what he suggests doing to it.

I may just have to pick up a vtr engine off ebay for a summer project.
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Old 02-07-2008, 09:06 PM
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It was the full stage 1 recipe, with a full exhaust system. Should have been ~120 HP. I never made the time to test it. The dyno was a couple hours away, and the wife hates everything motorcycle.

AZZKIKER bought my heads, cams and flywheel. He got 114 HP and 79 ft-lbs, with stock bottom end and 2 Bros slip-ons. I had the 2 bros and when I went to the full Moriwaki, the seat of the pants difference was large and obvious. He posted the dyno results here a while back.

The engine had the same torque/power delivery characteristics, but more everywhere.
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Old 02-08-2008, 04:39 AM
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actually it made 114.4 HP and 69ft-lbs of torque and I had a FULL 2 bros exhaust on it.
The guy that bought it from me has a buddy that has an Aprillia RSV 1000. They both went back to the same dyno. His buddy's aprillia dynoed less than the superhawk and he said the Superhawk is faster on the highway doing acceleration pulls.
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Old 02-08-2008, 04:41 AM
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Old 02-08-2008, 04:42 AM
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the last graph is before and after the new heads.
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