Time for Stage I
03-25-2010, 06:35 PM
#331
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sunshine Coast, Australia
Posts: 963
Yep, take your time and you will be fine. Do a dummy assembly, make sure all the bolts are sorted, etc, etc. Here is an old post I found from when I rebuilt my engine.
Conrod big end bearings are different for each rod and have different part numbers. One bearing has a smaller sized oil hole in it to help equalize oil pressure, as both bearings are fed from the same oil gallery. This is the front cylinder rod, the rear has the larger hole.
Both conrods face the oil gallery to the rear of the engine, ie the front cylinder faces into the V and the rear away from the V. The conrods are different, and only go in one spot. This is not evident until you go to fit the bearings.
Crankshaft main bearings are radically different as one side feeds oil to the big end bearings. This is quite obvious when you look at the journals. The trick with the bearings is with the sizing, as you have a crankshaft code (mine is no. 1) and then you have a crankcase code (a letter). These codes cross reference to give a bearing code (a colour). The trick is each side of the crankcase can have a different code and require a separet bearing. My engine crankcase codes are B & C, so I have one green coded bearing and one brown. They are of course different sizes.
Well finally the bottom end is now assembled. So crank, rods, pistons, transmission shafts and selectors etc are all in. It has been a long wait for these pieces to be correct.
A couple of things to note with the assembly if you are doing this. As I have mentioned previously, both conrods face the same way, towards the rear of the engine, and the big end bearings for each rod are different. Beware!
No paper gaskets are used between the crancase halves, just silicone. This needs to be applied sparingly as oil galleries are close by sealing surfaces, so take note from the manual where sealant is required and do not stray from this. Ensure all dowels are inserted before assembly.
The other trouble I had, believe it or not, was to have all the bolts lined up ready to go. There are 10, 8 & 6mm bolts all of varying lengths, and requiring different torque settings. For example in the 10mm bolts of which there are 8 in total, there are 3 different lengths. These of course must go in the correct threads. So I pre-assembled the crankcase halves and sorted out all the bolts before applying sealant, and then putting all the bolts in and torquing up as per the manual. Even doing this, and having a 15cfm twin pump compressor with an air ratchet to put the bolts in before torquing, it took me longer than I would have liked ideally. I wanted it all done asap to ensure the sealant didn't start going off before I was finished.
In reality, there was most probably nothing to be concerned with, but it took longer than expected. I would suggest you be organised before you start.
Conrod big end bearings are different for each rod and have different part numbers. One bearing has a smaller sized oil hole in it to help equalize oil pressure, as both bearings are fed from the same oil gallery. This is the front cylinder rod, the rear has the larger hole.
Both conrods face the oil gallery to the rear of the engine, ie the front cylinder faces into the V and the rear away from the V. The conrods are different, and only go in one spot. This is not evident until you go to fit the bearings.
Crankshaft main bearings are radically different as one side feeds oil to the big end bearings. This is quite obvious when you look at the journals. The trick with the bearings is with the sizing, as you have a crankshaft code (mine is no. 1) and then you have a crankcase code (a letter). These codes cross reference to give a bearing code (a colour). The trick is each side of the crankcase can have a different code and require a separet bearing. My engine crankcase codes are B & C, so I have one green coded bearing and one brown. They are of course different sizes.
Well finally the bottom end is now assembled. So crank, rods, pistons, transmission shafts and selectors etc are all in. It has been a long wait for these pieces to be correct.
A couple of things to note with the assembly if you are doing this. As I have mentioned previously, both conrods face the same way, towards the rear of the engine, and the big end bearings for each rod are different. Beware!
No paper gaskets are used between the crancase halves, just silicone. This needs to be applied sparingly as oil galleries are close by sealing surfaces, so take note from the manual where sealant is required and do not stray from this. Ensure all dowels are inserted before assembly.
The other trouble I had, believe it or not, was to have all the bolts lined up ready to go. There are 10, 8 & 6mm bolts all of varying lengths, and requiring different torque settings. For example in the 10mm bolts of which there are 8 in total, there are 3 different lengths. These of course must go in the correct threads. So I pre-assembled the crankcase halves and sorted out all the bolts before applying sealant, and then putting all the bolts in and torquing up as per the manual. Even doing this, and having a 15cfm twin pump compressor with an air ratchet to put the bolts in before torquing, it took me longer than I would have liked ideally. I wanted it all done asap to ensure the sealant didn't start going off before I was finished.
In reality, there was most probably nothing to be concerned with, but it took longer than expected. I would suggest you be organised before you start.
03-26-2010, 05:02 AM
#332
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lithia, FL
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Yep, take your time and you will be fine. Do a dummy assembly, make sure all the bolts are sorted, etc, etc. Here is an old post I found from when I rebuilt my engine.
Conrod big end bearings are different for each rod and have different part numbers. One bearing has a smaller sized oil hole in it to help equalize oil pressure, as both bearings are fed from the same oil gallery. This is the front cylinder rod, the rear has the larger hole.
Both conrods face the oil gallery to the rear of the engine, ie the front cylinder faces into the V and the rear away from the V. The conrods are different, and only go in one spot. This is not evident until you go to fit the bearings.
Crankshaft main bearings are radically different as one side feeds oil to the big end bearings. This is quite obvious when you look at the journals. The trick with the bearings is with the sizing, as you have a crankshaft code (mine is no. 1) and then you have a crankcase code (a letter). These codes cross reference to give a bearing code (a colour). The trick is each side of the crankcase can have a different code and require a separet bearing. My engine crankcase codes are B & C, so I have one green coded bearing and one brown. They are of course different sizes.
Well finally the bottom end is now assembled. So crank, rods, pistons, transmission shafts and selectors etc are all in. It has been a long wait for these pieces to be correct.
A couple of things to note with the assembly if you are doing this. As I have mentioned previously, both conrods face the same way, towards the rear of the engine, and the big end bearings for each rod are different. Beware!
No paper gaskets are used between the crancase halves, just silicone. This needs to be applied sparingly as oil galleries are close by sealing surfaces, so take note from the manual where sealant is required and do not stray from this. Ensure all dowels are inserted before assembly.
The other trouble I had, believe it or not, was to have all the bolts lined up ready to go. There are 10, 8 & 6mm bolts all of varying lengths, and requiring different torque settings. For example in the 10mm bolts of which there are 8 in total, there are 3 different lengths. These of course must go in the correct threads. So I pre-assembled the crankcase halves and sorted out all the bolts before applying sealant, and then putting all the bolts in and torquing up as per the manual. Even doing this, and having a 15cfm twin pump compressor with an air ratchet to put the bolts in before torquing, it took me longer than I would have liked ideally. I wanted it all done asap to ensure the sealant didn't start going off before I was finished.
In reality, there was most probably nothing to be concerned with, but it took longer than expected. I would suggest you be organised before you start.
Conrod big end bearings are different for each rod and have different part numbers. One bearing has a smaller sized oil hole in it to help equalize oil pressure, as both bearings are fed from the same oil gallery. This is the front cylinder rod, the rear has the larger hole.
Both conrods face the oil gallery to the rear of the engine, ie the front cylinder faces into the V and the rear away from the V. The conrods are different, and only go in one spot. This is not evident until you go to fit the bearings.
Crankshaft main bearings are radically different as one side feeds oil to the big end bearings. This is quite obvious when you look at the journals. The trick with the bearings is with the sizing, as you have a crankshaft code (mine is no. 1) and then you have a crankcase code (a letter). These codes cross reference to give a bearing code (a colour). The trick is each side of the crankcase can have a different code and require a separet bearing. My engine crankcase codes are B & C, so I have one green coded bearing and one brown. They are of course different sizes.
Well finally the bottom end is now assembled. So crank, rods, pistons, transmission shafts and selectors etc are all in. It has been a long wait for these pieces to be correct.
A couple of things to note with the assembly if you are doing this. As I have mentioned previously, both conrods face the same way, towards the rear of the engine, and the big end bearings for each rod are different. Beware!
No paper gaskets are used between the crancase halves, just silicone. This needs to be applied sparingly as oil galleries are close by sealing surfaces, so take note from the manual where sealant is required and do not stray from this. Ensure all dowels are inserted before assembly.
The other trouble I had, believe it or not, was to have all the bolts lined up ready to go. There are 10, 8 & 6mm bolts all of varying lengths, and requiring different torque settings. For example in the 10mm bolts of which there are 8 in total, there are 3 different lengths. These of course must go in the correct threads. So I pre-assembled the crankcase halves and sorted out all the bolts before applying sealant, and then putting all the bolts in and torquing up as per the manual. Even doing this, and having a 15cfm twin pump compressor with an air ratchet to put the bolts in before torquing, it took me longer than I would have liked ideally. I wanted it all done asap to ensure the sealant didn't start going off before I was finished.
In reality, there was most probably nothing to be concerned with, but it took longer than expected. I would suggest you be organised before you start.
RC
03-26-2010, 07:23 AM
#333
Senior Member
SuperSport
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 524
Being a mechanic I can't stress the importance of the sealer being applied properly.
I would recommend either Honda Bond, the grey stuff, or Three Bond 1207B.
Too much sealant can destroy engines when the excess gets squeezed inside the engine and ends up in metering passages.
It should be applied no thicker than a coat of paint would be.
Kai Ju
I would recommend either Honda Bond, the grey stuff, or Three Bond 1207B.
Too much sealant can destroy engines when the excess gets squeezed inside the engine and ends up in metering passages.
It should be applied no thicker than a coat of paint would be.
Kai Ju
03-26-2010, 07:26 AM
#334
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Being a mechanic I can't stress the importance of the sealer being applied properly.
I would recommend either Honda Bond, the grey stuff, or Three Bond 1207B.
Too much sealant can destroy engines when the excess gets squeezed inside the engine and ends up in metering passages.
It should be applied no thicker than a coat of paint would be.
Kai Ju
I would recommend either Honda Bond, the grey stuff, or Three Bond 1207B.
Too much sealant can destroy engines when the excess gets squeezed inside the engine and ends up in metering passages.
It should be applied no thicker than a coat of paint would be.
Kai Ju
RC
03-26-2010, 10:37 AM
#335
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
Posts: 1,689
+1 with Honda Bond. Silicone RTV squeezes out and gets in your oil pickup strainer.
Make sure the rod bearings line up with the oil squirter holes at the base of the rod. they are for cooling the underside of the piston.
Plastigage the clearances. It's not unheard of for the bearings to be mismarked. Also good to check ring end gaps, before assembly.
Use the old rod bolts to check the bearing clearance. Be sure to use new rod bolts on final assembly.
As far as cam timing. I broke the electrode out of a used spark plug, then turned down the head of a socket-head screw so it would fit tightly into the end of the spark plug. Then you can rotate the crank, forward and backward until the bolt contacts the top of the piston. Set your degree wheel so TDC is halfway between. This will probably be more accurate than lining up the mark on the flywheel with the case. Especially since the side case will be off at that point. Do you have a dial indicator, with a mag base? I can let you borrow one, if you need it.
Feel free to contact me (I'm sure others will be glad to help, too), if you get stuck or have any questions. The cam timing will be a bit of head scratcher until you get a feel for it.
Good luck!!
Make sure the rod bearings line up with the oil squirter holes at the base of the rod. they are for cooling the underside of the piston.
Plastigage the clearances. It's not unheard of for the bearings to be mismarked. Also good to check ring end gaps, before assembly.
Use the old rod bolts to check the bearing clearance. Be sure to use new rod bolts on final assembly.
As far as cam timing. I broke the electrode out of a used spark plug, then turned down the head of a socket-head screw so it would fit tightly into the end of the spark plug. Then you can rotate the crank, forward and backward until the bolt contacts the top of the piston. Set your degree wheel so TDC is halfway between. This will probably be more accurate than lining up the mark on the flywheel with the case. Especially since the side case will be off at that point. Do you have a dial indicator, with a mag base? I can let you borrow one, if you need it.
Feel free to contact me (I'm sure others will be glad to help, too), if you get stuck or have any questions. The cam timing will be a bit of head scratcher until you get a feel for it.
Good luck!!
03-26-2010, 10:43 AM
#336
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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+1 with Honda Bond. Silicone RTV squeezes out and gets in your oil pickup strainer.
Make sure the rod bearings line up with the oil squirter holes at the base of the rod. they are for cooling the underside of the piston.
Plastigage the clearances. It's not unheard of for the bearings to be mismarked. Also good to check ring end gaps, before assembly.
Use the old rod bolts to check the bearing clearance. Be sure to use new rod bolts on final assembly.
As far as cam timing. I broke the electrode out of a used spark plug, then turned down the head of a socket-head screw so it would fit tightly into the end of the spark plug. Then you can rotate the crank, forward and backward until the bolt contacts the top of the piston. Set your degree wheel so TDC is halfway between. This will probably be more accurate than lining up the mark on the flywheel with the case. Especially since the side case will be off at that point. Do you have a dial indicator, with a mag base? I can let you borrow one, if you need it.
Feel free to contact me (I'm sure others will be glad to help, too), if you get stuck or have any questions. The cam timing will be a bit of head scratcher until you get a feel for it.
Good luck!!
Make sure the rod bearings line up with the oil squirter holes at the base of the rod. they are for cooling the underside of the piston.
Plastigage the clearances. It's not unheard of for the bearings to be mismarked. Also good to check ring end gaps, before assembly.
Use the old rod bolts to check the bearing clearance. Be sure to use new rod bolts on final assembly.
As far as cam timing. I broke the electrode out of a used spark plug, then turned down the head of a socket-head screw so it would fit tightly into the end of the spark plug. Then you can rotate the crank, forward and backward until the bolt contacts the top of the piston. Set your degree wheel so TDC is halfway between. This will probably be more accurate than lining up the mark on the flywheel with the case. Especially since the side case will be off at that point. Do you have a dial indicator, with a mag base? I can let you borrow one, if you need it.
Feel free to contact me (I'm sure others will be glad to help, too), if you get stuck or have any questions. The cam timing will be a bit of head scratcher until you get a feel for it.
Good luck!!
RC
03-26-2010, 01:19 PM
#337
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Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
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Not talking about a degree wheel.
I was asking if you have a dial indicator to measure valve lift. You'll want to make all of your degree measurements at the same lift on both sides of the cam lobe. ~.040" (1 mm) of lift is normal. Just be sure it's always the same.
I was asking if you have a dial indicator to measure valve lift. You'll want to make all of your degree measurements at the same lift on both sides of the cam lobe. ~.040" (1 mm) of lift is normal. Just be sure it's always the same.
03-26-2010, 02:47 PM
#338
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04-11-2010, 06:56 AM
#343
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Quick question: The rods have different sides where one side rides against the other rod on the inside and one side against the crank on the outside.
Looking at photos on Ron Ayers it seems to look like and it seems logical that the completly smooth sides on the conrods ride against each other in the middle and the sides with gaps go outside against the crank.
It's easy enough to see where the front and rear rods go on the crank to the right or left depending on case orientaion, but their orientation on the crank to each other isn't apparent...
Whattcha think?
Looking at photos on Ron Ayers it seems to look like and it seems logical that the completly smooth sides on the conrods ride against each other in the middle and the sides with gaps go outside against the crank.
It's easy enough to see where the front and rear rods go on the crank to the right or left depending on case orientaion, but their orientation on the crank to each other isn't apparent...
Whattcha think?
04-11-2010, 08:24 AM
#344
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The sides that have the bevel go to the outside. If you flip either one they will not physically fit onto the crank.
When I did mine I placed both rods onto the crank on the sides that they are going to be.
I had to do it like 6 times till I got the plastigage to not smear by turning the rod while torquing the rod bolts.
When I did mine I placed both rods onto the crank on the sides that they are going to be.
I had to do it like 6 times till I got the plastigage to not smear by turning the rod while torquing the rod bolts.
04-11-2010, 08:25 AM
#345
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but it will be infinitely easier on the bench then in the bike! So its a great time to do it and take your time. Are you replacing the cam chains? I could not find any spec on them to know when they are stretched enough to matter and I was worried about effect on cam timing. I suppose you could carefully check various parts of the chains to see if one area is stretched more than others, or simply replace them if they are old. Its certainly the easiest time to do it if you have a lot of miles. Be interested to hear what the others think.
04-11-2010, 09:19 AM
#346
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The sides that have the bevel go to the outside. If you flip either one they will not physically fit onto the crank.
When I did mine I placed both rods onto the crank on the sides that they are going to be.
I had to do it like 6 times till I got the plastigage to not smear by turning the rod while torquing the rod bolts.
When I did mine I placed both rods onto the crank on the sides that they are going to be.
I had to do it like 6 times till I got the plastigage to not smear by turning the rod while torquing the rod bolts.
I tourqed them a little at a time up to 14lbs so no smeard plastigauge, but for the final bit I did have to hold the crank with one hand and tourque it with the other...
04-11-2010, 09:24 AM
#347
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but it will be infinitely easier on the bench then in the bike! So its a great time to do it and take your time. Are you replacing the cam chains? I could not find any spec on them to know when they are stretched enough to matter and I was worried about effect on cam timing. I suppose you could carefully check various parts of the chains to see if one area is stretched more than others, or simply replace them if they are old. Its certainly the easiest time to do it if you have a lot of miles. Be interested to hear what the others think.
04-11-2010, 09:56 AM
#348
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Good luck, you are making great progress. Its more tedious now but also more fun because there is a lot to learn (at least for me).
04-11-2010, 10:54 AM
#349
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for drivetrains, Ok, but for cam chains that is not sensitive enough. It would more be total length. a little stretch will alter the timing. Remember you are going to be slotting your sprockets and maybe moving the sprockets less than a mm and you are talking about the corresponding few degree changes (out of 360 degrees in a circle). Chain stretch will do the same thing and most definitely alters cam timing over the break in and use of a motor. Granted, its less of an issue because you are going to check and set your timing, but if you had uneven stretch the timing would alter. And its one of many parts of the reason why if you only went by the timing marks on cams and sprockets you would not have the ideal cam timing. Again, I don't know the answer. When I asked and was doing mine on a 10K motor from a reliable builder I heard they should be fine, but neither of us could find a wear spec to be sure.
Good luck, you are making great progress. Its more tedious now but also more fun because there is a lot to learn (at least for me).
Good luck, you are making great progress. Its more tedious now but also more fun because there is a lot to learn (at least for me).
Last edited by FL02SupaHawk996; 04-11-2010 at 02:02 PM. Reason: add pic
04-12-2010, 07:44 AM
#350
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I've decided to just order new cam drive chains cuz while I was making sure they were the same length I found that one of the links had frozen...
Here's some more pics.
Check out the difference in OEM & JE High Comp pistions.
I've got the cases back together and you can see that squeeze out from the Honda bond was minimal.
Ring gaps look good, so rings are installed and pistons are going in next!
I installed the slugs on the rods with the intake side of the crown opposite the oil hole side of the rods...does that sound right? (Okay, I figured them out: front is same side as intake and rear is opposite)
Here's some more pics.
Check out the difference in OEM & JE High Comp pistions.
I've got the cases back together and you can see that squeeze out from the Honda bond was minimal.
Ring gaps look good, so rings are installed and pistons are going in next!
I installed the slugs on the rods with the intake side of the crown opposite the oil hole side of the rods...does that sound right? (Okay, I figured them out: front is same side as intake and rear is opposite)
Last edited by FL02SupaHawk996; 04-13-2010 at 05:51 AM. Reason: update
04-12-2010, 08:33 AM
#351
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This might help if you haven't seen it...... http://www.muzzys.com/articles/lobe_centers.html
04-12-2010, 02:00 PM
#352
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Damn I'm jealous I have been waiting for over a month for JE to get back to me regarding my pistons. Turns out they needed approval from a 3rd person to go ahead and make the order 
. So I guess now the pistons are on order and after that I need to get the cylinders bored, then squish set, then... bla bla you all know the rest.
. So I guess now the pistons are on order and after that I need to get the cylinders bored, then squish set, then... bla bla you all know the rest.
04-12-2010, 02:38 PM
#353
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Damn I'm jealous I have been waiting for over a month for JE to get back to me regarding my pistons. Turns out they needed approval from a 3rd person to go ahead and make the order . So I guess now the pistons are on order and after that I need to get the cylinders bored, then squish set, then... bla bla you all know the rest.
. So I guess now the pistons are on order and after that I need to get the cylinders bored, then squish set, then... bla bla you all know the rest.
04-12-2010, 05:16 PM
#354
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04-13-2010, 06:57 PM
#356
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Decided to install pistons tonight, but when I looked around the garage I quickly realized I had no dyno oil...everything I have is synthetic
So I turned to my kegerator and my keg of Stone's Arrogant Bastard for releif
Then threw some dawgs on the grill before going out to the store for a quart of dyno
So I turned to my kegerator and my keg of Stone's Arrogant Bastard for releif
Then threw some dawgs on the grill before going out to the store for a quart of dyno
