Modifications - Performance Discuss aftermarket and DIY performance modifications

Put new sprockets on today. WOW!!

Old 04-09-2011, 04:44 PM
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Put new sprockets on today. WOW!!

so ive had a set of sprockets and a speedohealer for almost a year now and finaly found the time to install it all today. I went down one tooth on the front and up two in the rear. Its like a completely different bike. Today was the first time ive accidently pulled a 2nd gear power wheelie
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Old 04-09-2011, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Bluesuperhawk83 View Post
so ive had a set of sprockets and a speedohealer for almost a year now and finaly found the time to install it all today. I went down one tooth on the front and up two in the rear. Its like a completely different bike. Today was the first time ive accidently pulled a 2nd gear power wheelie
Well that's because your second gear is right about the same as 1st gear on a std geared bike.

I've stated before this is way too low of gearing IMHO. If you want to read all the reasons why I feel this way it is all covered here: https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...eration-24786/
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Old 04-09-2011, 05:13 PM
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Granted that what you say is true Hawk but it is still a matter of personal choice. I have also struggled with the sprocket choice dilemma. I found that becoming more comfortable with the stock configuration is best. However that is my personal choice. As for Blue if this makes you enjoy your bike more than great for you. Keep in mind however you are running your bike at higher rpm's with this setup and it will cause more wear and tear on the bike than the stock setup.
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Old 04-09-2011, 05:16 PM
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I agree with 8541hawk in that it is TOO low. Its cute now but when you realize you now ride a 5 speed bike with a stump-puller gear you will regret the move. If (when) that happens try just one down in the front with stock rear.
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Old 04-09-2011, 05:32 PM
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Well if i get tired of the setup i can always go back to the stock rear and just leave it -1 on the front. I got the sprockets as a package deal and figured i might as well try it out since i had them. Im not a stunter but the extra oomph was a bit of an eye opener. i rarely get over 100mph so as long as i can stand the extra rpms at 70 should be ok.
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Old 04-10-2011, 06:31 PM
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I find the shorter gears aren't bad at all. seems just as long of gears as before (I have the chart, not too significant) but when you're at 11000rpm you have some good speed already. maybe everyone else GRANNY SHIFTS their hawk.
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Old 04-10-2011, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by nothing View Post
I find the shorter gears aren't bad at all. seems just as long of gears as before (I have the chart, not too significant) but when you're at 11000rpm you have some good speed already. maybe everyone else GRANNY SHIFTS their hawk.
Not too significant?? Basically 2nd-6th with the 15-43 gearing is the same ratios as a 16-41 geared bike in 1st-5th. That is pretty significant to me..... Why not just take 6th gear out and run 16-41 as a 5 speed as it is pretty much the same thing??

As for 11000, really??? You do know the rev limiter cuts in at 10300 don't you..... and it you really do rev the engine, why the hell do you need such low gearing??
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Old 04-11-2011, 04:31 PM
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i went -1 on the front and found the front plenty lively for my tastes. perfect.
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Old 04-11-2011, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by nothing View Post
I find the shorter gears aren't bad at all. seems just as long of gears as before (I have the chart, not too significant) but when you're at 11000rpm you have some good speed already. maybe everyone else GRANNY SHIFTS their hawk.
Originally Posted by 8541Hawk View Post
Not too significant?? Basically 2nd-6th with the 15-43 gearing is the same ratios as a 16-41 geared bike in 1st-5th. That is pretty significant to me..... Why not just take 6th gear out and run 16-41 as a 5 speed as it is pretty much the same thing??

As for 11000, really??? You do know the rev limiter cuts in at 10300 don't you..... and it you really do rev the engine, why the hell do you need such low gearing??
Well, since the VTR makes peak torque at 7500, and peak power at 9000, it seems a bit dumb to rev beyond 9500'ish... Unless you are trying to get that last .5 mph out of sixth gear on an undergeared VTR at least...

And yes, hawk is pretty much right... With the exception of first, that ends up significantly different, the rest is pretty much dead on the same as one gear lower at 16-41 if you use 15-43... less than 5% difference between each gear... Ie, 15-43 is a to big change to actually make a net gain... going to 15-41 or 16-43 might actually be a usefull swap though...
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Old 04-11-2011, 06:28 PM
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15/43 is just right.

Don't let the guys who know what's best for you tell you any different.
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Old 04-11-2011, 06:41 PM
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i did the same -1 +2, its alot of fun, for the riding i do with it its perfect, not too much top speed stuff, even with this gearing the bike has a hard time seeing redline in 6th gear on a flat stretch of road. so unless you do alot of long range riding dont re gear, but if you want the bike to be more fun coming out of corners then by all means gear it hot like that and have fun with it
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Old 04-11-2011, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by killer5280 View Post
15/43 is just right.

Don't let the guys who know what's best for you tell you any different.
Actually it is pretty stupid...... like I said earlier why not just leave the bike geared at 16\41 and take 6th out of the transmission and throw it in the trash? Hell you could save on rotating mass that way.....

It is funny, that when asked, the only thing you hear is "it feels good" as a reasoning for running 15\43 gearing but when you do the math 2nd -6th with 15\43 is pretty much the same as 16\41 in 1st -5th. In fact with 16\41 the first 3 gears are a little lower so you actually accelerate faster with 16\41.

It really is just simple math. You can gear down 1 in the front or go up 1 or 2 in the rear. Anymore than that and you are just slowing yourself down. People can say it feels so much better but the math doesn't lie.
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Old 04-11-2011, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by 8541Hawk View Post
Actually it is pretty stupid...... like I said earlier why not just leave the bike geared at 16\41 and take 6th out of the transmission and throw it in the trash? Hell you could save on rotating mass that way.....

It is funny, that when asked, the only thing you hear is "it feels good" as a reasoning for running 15\43 gearing but when you do the math 2nd -6th with 15\43 is pretty much the same as 16\41 in 1st -5th. In fact with 16\41 the first 3 gears are a little lower so you actually accelerate faster with 16\41.

It really is just simple math. You can gear down 1 in the front or go up 1 or 2 in the rear. Anymore than that and you are just slowing yourself down. People can say it feels so much better but the math doesn't lie.
I knew you couldn't resist chiming in again with your "expertise" on what gearing others should run. Run whatever gear you like and talk about your math all you want, but stop passing off your opinion like it's gospel fact because it really is only your opinion. Calling people stupid for liking a certain gearing combination says more about you than it does about anything else.

Last edited by killer5280; 04-11-2011 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 04-11-2011, 10:36 PM
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Oh yeah this is the old mud slinging thread resurrected. Hey killer lighten up. We are all posting our opinions, (you too).

Hey blue83 how does the speedo healer seem to work, I have still not put mine on. Have you checked it against a gps?
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Old 04-11-2011, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by smokinjoe73 View Post
Oh yeah this is the old mud slinging thread resurrected. Hey killer lighten up. We are all posting our opinions, (you too).

Hey blue83 how does the speedo healer seem to work, I have still not put mine on. Have you checked it against a gps?

havnt checked it agianst a gps yet. ive got to find some way to mount my phone in a visible spot since its the only gps i have. the speedohealer is pretty cool though, basicaly you figure how much% its off enter that number in and there you go. it gives you an estimate based on gearing and factory error, but if it turns out thats off you can put in any number you need to. also has a top speed recall button. wife flipped out when she hit that button and the speedometer jumped to 140 although i think that number was a bit high.
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Old 04-12-2011, 04:44 AM
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tell the wife you havent calibrated it yet and its off by about 50 mph at that speed

this is the same as changing rear end gearing in a car. you loose top speed but youll gain acceleration. on paper it seems like its as simple as down shifting and being on pace, but ill tell you, ive got a buddy who i used to be close with when we'd race, after the re gear i threw that guy a beating over and over again.

on my quad i dropped 2 in the front and went up 1 in the rear. that was too much, the top speed was gone, it literally felt like i was riding a 4 speed quad and even though id pull away from my neighbours quad id be sitting at the rev limiter as he pulled me top end every time. that has since been resolved with bigger tires

also back to the gearing, if it was as ineffective as some people believe, cars wouldnt re gear, drag cars wouldnt need it because it wouldnt be useful. why change out the gearing unless you want it to accelerate faster, i went from the lowest gearing ford had for their 5 liter mustang, cant remember what causde its early, up to a 4.10 and it was night and day, the car came to life and was not only more responsive but a hell of alot faster.

like i siad, it all depends what you wanna do with the bike, i wont take mine out for long hauls, if i did id have geared the other way to save on gas, i do enough twisty road roading that it works for me. these bikes from factory are geared out too far anyway, you can never find redline in 6th with stock gearing, you need a big *** hill and a tail wind to do so. so why not adjust it and take advantage of it a little more
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Old 04-12-2011, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by uchi View Post
tell the wife you havent calibrated it yet and its off by about 50 mph at that speed

this is the same as changing rear end gearing in a car. you loose top speed but youll gain acceleration. on paper it seems like its as simple as down shifting and being on pace, but ill tell you, ive got a buddy who i used to be close with when we'd race, after the re gear i threw that guy a beating over and over again.

on my quad i dropped 2 in the front and went up 1 in the rear. that was too much, the top speed was gone, it literally felt like i was riding a 4 speed quad and even though id pull away from my neighbours quad id be sitting at the rev limiter as he pulled me top end every time. that has since been resolved with bigger tires

also back to the gearing, if it was as ineffective as some people believe, cars wouldnt re gear, drag cars wouldnt need it because it wouldnt be useful. why change out the gearing unless you want it to accelerate faster, i went from the lowest gearing ford had for their 5 liter mustang, cant remember what causde its early, up to a 4.10 and it was night and day, the car came to life and was not only more responsive but a hell of alot faster.

like i siad, it all depends what you wanna do with the bike, i wont take mine out for long hauls, if i did id have geared the other way to save on gas, i do enough twisty road roading that it works for me. these bikes from factory are geared out too far anyway, you can never find redline in 6th with stock gearing, you need a big *** hill and a tail wind to do so. so why not adjust it and take advantage of it a little more
Actually uchi, it isn't that easy... I have made this argument before... and you partially made it with your short sentance about your quad... But I'll make it once agian...

Yes, changing the gearing can increase acceleration and you always, without exception loose at least theoretical top speed... That's laws of physics, try arguing with that and see who looses...

But what happened with your quad is a prime example of where you end up with 15/43 and above... You effectively shortened the gears, by increasing the final gearing to a point where you spent the entire time just shifting gears instead of actually accelerating... And once you where out of gears, the other quad went past you... Or, perhaps even sooner? Since he could actually use the accelaration in one gear before needing to shift because he bounced of the limiter...

That happens at the point where one gear actually turns into another... Ie with 15/43 you have turned 2 gear into 1 gear from the stock gearing... And you have effectively created a gearbox with 0-1-2-3-4-5 instead of 1-2-3-4-5-6... Ie the gears are shorter, because the engine spins up faster, and you have just moved the entire chain down one step... First gear, now "0", is almost useless, because you cannot give the bike any throttle in this gear without lofting the front wildly...

The only net gain you have accomplished here is, if you start in second gear, you will reach 6'th a few fractions of seconds faster and have the same speed as the stock bike will in 5'th once it hit's that gear slightly after you, becuase it's longer span between gears due to the longer over all gearing... But once you hit 6'th, the stock bike keeps going...

And if you instead start in 1'st the stock bike will gain back that fraction you have gained to your top speed when you shift from 1'st to 2'nd... And still beat you on top speed...

If you however use 16/43 you have shorter gearing than stock, but not so much that you effectively "loose" a gear... You will beat the stock bike, hands down until he hit's 6'th and in theory has a higher cieling... But yeah, the VTR is unable to hit it's full theoretical top-end completely stock... So that will probably be a moot point unless you have an airfield to play in...

This way re-gearing is usefull, 15/43 isn't unless you do it for a very specific purpose like a very tight and twisty track that has no straights what-so-ever and need that fraction you gain in 2-3-4'th gear...

So no... Re-gearing isn't ineffective... I'm not saying that, hawk isn't saying that... but going to far in re-gearing is actually ineffective, even if by feel it might not be apparent unless you have something to compare too...

To killer... Well, hawk might come of as preaching... But you are doing the exact same thing yourself... It just happens that your opinion and his are differing... Both are opinions, both are based loosely on facts... and both are subjective to some degree... You are yourself guilty of the same thing you are accusing hawk of... No smiley or halfway worded sentence changes that...

My opinions aren't that much different, but for the fact that i can base them to some degree on actual verifiable math... The fact that shifting takes time (loss of traction and drive), and the fact that increasing the overall gearing shortens the effective time in each gear because the engine spins up faster relative to the wheel...

So as a challenge to you... Since you believe you know the right answer... You do the math, you explain in detail why a 15/43 gearing is in fact more effective than a 16/43... Reference verifiable math, and prove me wrong and I'll shut up about this and support you...

If you can't... Well, I'll reserve the right to say you are wrong, and I'll flame your as hard as I like if you say otherwise in half sentences... Doesn't mean you have to change your opinon though... Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but saying that someone else is trying to force an opinon on anyone, doesn't make your own opinion right... Or give you a free chance of doing that yourself without being called on it...

Peace...
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Old 04-12-2011, 07:14 AM
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damn didnt mean to start a **** storm. If it will make both sides happy ill compromise and go 15t front and stock rear
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Old 04-12-2011, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Bluesuperhawk83 View Post
damn didnt mean to start a **** storm. If it will make both sides happy ill compromise and go 15t front and stock rear
Hey, don't worry about it. I like all the back and forth! It is teaching me alot about how I might want to change in the future.
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Bluesuperhawk83 View Post
damn didnt mean to start a **** storm. If it will make both sides happy ill compromise and go 15t front and stock rear
Dude, this ain't no **** storm... This is still considered friendly discussion... And besides, we'd just find something else to disagree on, it usually takes us less than 3 days...

And yeah, the point of it all is that we all learn... It's fully possible that killer can point out something I haven't thought about... Then I learn... If not, I'll get more chances later...

BTW if you want to compromise, I think both sides of the current discussion will agree that since both 15/41 and 16/43 is nearly the same in final gearing, but 15/41 puts more stress on the chain, the better compromise would be 16/43... Same performance, less wear, and marginally shorter wheelbase...

Last edited by Tweety; 04-12-2011 at 08:19 AM.
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:28 AM
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Haha tweety you're a good man. I can't make my reply too long as im using my phone and avoiding work to do this.
First i understand what you're saying and on paper its true. Do the math it makes sense. Fact is these bikes in stock form lack the power to redline 6th gear. Even with a regear like mine its hard to get there and I've lost like 30kph off my top speed. So what's the point of being geared like that if you can't use it?
second. The shift delay and rpm drop don't apply that much with the big twin. Its power band is so fat that anytime you shift gears higher in rpms it'll still be in the power band in the next gear. And having a sequential gear box makes shifting gears fast and easy. Were not working an cars gear box where it would affect acceleration significantly to shift gears every few seconds.
Also if you take a stock gear And a re geared bike start them both at any given speed say 40 mph and have them race to 100 we both know the regeared bike will get there faster. If the regear was so large that the top speed went from 150 mph to 120 then yes the regeared bike would loose once it ran out of gear. But i know these bikes lack the power to use 6th gear fully.

Back to what i said earlier. My buddy had a newer vfr 800. Stock for me exhaust for him wed be dead even from about. 30 to 125 mph. He'd slightly edge me out but that was it. After the regear we ran a few times and id put lengths on him. At 120 mph i was still pulling away from him every time. Aol he sold it and bought a cbr1000 lol

excuse any spelling mistakes and messed up words im on a touch screen phone that thinks it knows what words i wanna use
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:30 AM
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Lol no ones fighting man this is a friendly discussion. I respect tweety too much to fight with him although i do enjoy the odd discussion with him
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Old 04-12-2011, 09:03 AM
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Just to add another example to the arguement, sometimes you can have too much of a good thing.

One of my other bikes is a kasasaki Concours. I recently changed the rear of it to be able to run a more modern 17 inch rear. My original tire was a 150/80-16 and now I'm running at 170/60-17.

The net effect for me was similar to the effect of changing the sprockets. My RPMs are up. While I get a bit quicker launch down low, the net effect I've noticed is that I'm constantly shifting gears. The pull between gears seems to be negatively quick. in other words, I get through a gear and have to upshift very quickly.

To me, this is an inconvenience. I'm going to go to a 160/70-17 for my next tire to reduce the gap between what it was and what it now is.
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Old 04-12-2011, 09:12 AM
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Ok after playing with a gear calculator tweety and hawk are mathematicaly right. Gearing Commander: Motorcycle Speed, RPM, Chain & Sprockets Calculator this weekend if its sunny im gonna play with the other gearing options i have. IE stock front sprocket 43 tooth rear and 15tooth front and stock rear.
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Old 04-12-2011, 10:13 AM
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Agreed you can have too much. As i said my quad was over geared. It was great for hill climbs and tight trails but wasnt good when going between trails

Originally Posted by Old Yeller View Post
Just to add another example to the arguement, sometimes you can have too much of a good thing.

One of my other bikes is a kasasaki Concours. I recently changed the rear of it to be able to run a more modern 17 inch rear. My original tire was a 150/80-16 and now I'm running at 170/60-17.

The net effect for me was similar to the effect of changing the sprockets. My RPMs are up. While I get a bit quicker launch down low, the net effect I've noticed is that I'm constantly shifting gears. The pull between gears seems to be negatively quick. in other words, I get through a gear and have to upshift very quickly.

To me, this is an inconvenience. I'm going to go to a 160/70-17 for my next tire to reduce the gap between what it was and what it now is.
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Old 04-12-2011, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by uchi View Post
Lol no ones fighting man this is a friendly discussion. I respect tweety too much to fight with him although i do enjoy the odd discussion with him
Lol... You know I live for discussions...

Back to it... The difference is that 16/43 gives you a net gain... It does all you say you want out of it... You get to rev it out and reach the the theoretical top end, and you still have a usable 1st gear... 15/43 looses the first essentially...

And yeah, the difference is actually not far from 150 -> 120... 16/43 hit's a theretical 167 at redline in 6'th... 15/43 is 149... And I can personally vouch for the fact that a stock bike can reach redline, albeit I can't say for sure on rev limiter or actual roadspeed at those revs...

But, i can say that with very little work done to the engine, like a lighter flywheel, and stacks and such, you should be capable of combining that with 16/43 and actually get usable redline and increased acceleration, without loosing at the other end ('cept money)...

I'n my particular case, it's fairly moot... I have 120+ bhp at the rear wheel, and I can most definetly hit both redline and the limiter in all gears with stock gearing... Yeah, I have verified that... And I highly doubt I'll be more than marginally behind a stock engined VTR, regardless of gearing... Even the pesky liter 4's have to work a bit to outdrag me... (not too hard though)...

When I did try 15/43 it made my first gear entirely useless... And the bike tried to come up in 3'rd unless I pushed it down...
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Old 04-12-2011, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Bluesuperhawk83 View Post
damn didnt mean to start a **** storm. If it will make both sides happy ill compromise and go 15t front and stock rear
Well it is all about choice and run whatever you like but take the time and make an informed choice. Just because someone on the internet says something is a good choice doesn't always mean that it is.
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Old 04-12-2011, 12:04 PM
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I've read this all with interest and have learned some things and what I'd do if were my choice.

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Old 04-12-2011, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by killer5280 View Post
I knew you couldn't resist chiming in again with your "expertise" on what gearing others should run. Run whatever gear you like and talk about your math all you want, but stop passing off your opinion like it's gospel fact because it really is only your opinion. Calling people stupid for liking a certain gearing combination says more about you than it does about anything else.
Well I guess you felt this little gem was just fine to throw out

Originally Posted by killer5280 View Post
Don't let the guys who know what's best for you tell you any different.
but become a bit upset when you get it tossed back at you?

From my side, this is just like the last thread on this subject. Yes I am defending my opinion using facts and examples. You defend your side with feelings and conjecture. When I don't agree and the facts back me up, you try to turn the thread into a pissing contest.

I guess after 2 threads worth of trying to explain the whole thing and showing the facts behind it. At this point, I am getting a bit tired of hearing that the math and\or facts mean nothing and it just feels better.

I'll ask again, how? I'll give you one last example. Up to now all of these have somehow ended up as standing start acceleration or top speed at red line. Neither of which is "normal" street use.

So for this one you have 2 bikes, one with 15\43 and the other 16\41 (with all other variables the same on both bikes).

Now you are on your favorite back road coming up to a corner. The bike with 15\43 is in 4th. So to be turning the same (or close enough to be called the same for this example but if you really need we can crunch the actual numbers if you need) RPM and to be running the same speed the bike with 16\41 gearing will be in 3rd. With me so far?

Now the 15\43 bike down shifts 1 for the corner. The 16\41 does the same. Now the bikes hit the apex and accelerate out. As both bike are going the same speed, turning the same RPM and have the same (once again the actual number can be posted but for all practical purposes they are the same) overall gear ratio, which one will accelerate faster out of the corner?

As I see it there would be no difference.

If you can explain how one could be faster than the other at this point, I would be very interested in hearing how that could be.

This is one reason why I say that 15\43 is a poor gearing choice. In normal riding conditions you gain nothing over the stock gearing and make too many compromises at the same time.

You even admitted it the last time we went over this :
Originally Posted by killer5280 View Post
My point is that is basically a five speed anyway. So with 15/43 it's a closer ratio five speed, which is fine with me.
Which is fine if that is what you want but to suggest the gearing to someone else and leave that little factoid out is doing them a disservice.

There are also other draw backs to 15\43. You may claim you never use 6th or ride open roads but most people do. I know I end up on the freeway or a Hwy going to my riding spots or even running out for an ice cream all the time.

I these situations running the higher final drive gives you lower engine RPMs and chain speed. Which not only gives you loner chain, sprocket and engine life, you also get better fuel economy.

All things you give up with 15\43 while gaining nothing.

Then again, I'm just a big meanie and am just trying to force things on people.......
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Old 04-12-2011, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by 8541Hawk View Post
Well that's because your second gear is right about the same as 1st gear on a std geared bike.

I've stated before this is way too low of gearing IMHO. If you want to read all the reasons why I feel this way it is all covered here: https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...eration-24786/
haha after that thread I decided to stay stock.
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