nath981

I don't mean to suggest that I'm the only one who uses trailbraking, albeit I do think that those who do are a significant minority.

Also, I do believe that those few who do use trailbraking, probably including you, do not use the brakes like I do. I'm not saying that my way is the correct, proper, accepted, etc., and it probably isn't, but it is the way I've evolved it during the past couple years. If I discover a better way, or find fault with the way i use the brakes, i'll change.

Ignored your post, not intentionally. Somehow missed picking up on it or something.

Might have a suspension problem, don't know. there seems to be a good balance between front and rear in terms working together, i.e., push down on the seat and there is no f/r disparity. Got weight matched RT springs front(light wgt oil), JD's f4i gold mod shock rear.

Set rebound on the soft side, that is, adjust all rebound out, then keep adding until I can feel rebound and stop there, check position, and do it again to double check.

8541Hawk

Not so much around here.... it is rather common. It's just another tool in your bag of trick that you take with you every time you ride.

I'm not really sure what to make of this statement. Why do you believe you brake so much harder than anyone else?

Also by reading the mods you have done, I have to assume you still have the stock brake set up along with the stock forks on your bike. If you haven't ridden a SH with a USD front end and big brake rotors and better calipers & master cylinder, then you have no idea how much more braking ability that set up gives you. Not to brag or any **** like that but i can out brake any stock forked and stock braked SH without even trying.

So not only have I been using trail braking for a good 20yrs, I also have a good 50% more braking power than you have.



No worries, just checking.

None of those things will tell you if you have too much compression damping. Like I asked before, did you mention the light wheels to Jammie when he valved the shock? Are you still running the stock valving in the forks?

By reading your posts about how the bike "feels" to harsh with higher tire pressure points directly to having too much compression damping. I also believe you are masking that issue with low tire pressure.

Setting rebound is normally done a little different than that. The way I set it is by pushing down on the bike. Then when it "rebounds" the bike should come up to the top of the suspension and stop. If it doesn't come all the way to the top, you have too much damping. If it tops out and bounces, you have too little damping. This is just for setting the base line and you adjust it to your liking from there.

In no way am I trying to put you down with any of this, just trying to help you get the bike sorted out.

By the numbers on tire pressure you have posted, you are really overheating your tires.

Getting the suspension sorted will not only give you better tire life, it will also help protect those aftermarket wheels you are running. With the pressure as low as you run it, one good pot hole and those wheels have a good chance of being toast......

Of course you can do whatever you like but IMHO running pressures that low on the street is not needed or a good idea.

nath981

sorry for the poor communication. There's a lot lost in words sometimes. I don't believe I brake harder, as hard or not as hard as others. What I do is ride the brakes before the turn, during the turn and after the turn and even some of the time in between if i think there is a possible hazard. For example, I never crest a hill without covering the brake to the point of light pressure, although I may be going too fast anyway, or if i know there is a spot I encountered a deer or other, etc. Of course the pressure varies from enough to compress the front forks to just lightly enough to take up all the free play. The other thing I do weird approaching a turn is cancel engine braking with neutral throttle unless i'm in too hot and need to slow things up a more than anticipated. Judging by everything i've read on this forum relative to the use of engine braking, I believe this alone qualifies me as a weirdo, then add to that innumerable other unrelated qualifiers and you get the idea, huh. haha

I go through brakes at a rather high rate, esp on the dual sport(XR) which has only one front rotor.

Anyway, that's why i believe my braking is different than the average sport bike rider and that's why i say the brakes are always warm as are the rotors, wheels and tires, not because of harder braking, but more constant. Now I'm not sure what others call trailbraking, but I'm fairly sure it's not what I'm doing.

As far as my suspension, RT springs and Roger Ditchfield's fork mods, rear is best JD mod, brakes are OEM with SS lines, frequent sand blast and pad sanding and cleaning. Setting rebound is like I described, whenever i first detect definite rebound in the bounce, i stop and then double check. I like the earliest detectable rebound which to me feels right, so I wouldn't agree with too much rebound, but maybe not quite enough?

i may be running pressure too low, however, it's usually 4psi increase to hot, 30 quickly increases to be 34. Could this be overheating? Concerning the roughness at higher pressures, it seems common to others using the Pures, but maybe you're right. Something is amiss. DVTR has a good eye in terms of his appraisal of the pics. I checked the tires carefully and both front and rear are chafed at the leading edge. That is, if you rub your down the front of the tires(the direction they are running), it feels smooth; if you rub your hand back up, it catches noticeably on the rear edges of the tread grooves(on the sides where the grooves go out toward the tire edges of). Both front and rear are the same. maybe that's why they feel rougher with more pressure too, but that wouldn't explain less grip at lean. I don't know what's going on, but definitely need to change something to see if I can smooth the tires out.

Don't worry about putting me down but it's nice of you to be concerned. I just wanna learn and am not afraid to screw up to do it if that's what has to be done. That's probably why I've slid down the road so many times, haha, and that doesn't bother me too much because i've got good gear and plenty of practice. It's hitting something hard that concerns me more. Hopefully, none of us have to experience that huh.

8541Hawk

No worries my friend.... I was just making sure as you know how some of these threads can turn into a pissing match real quick.

I do know what you mean by things not always coming through clear on the net...

With that here is what I'm seeing and why.

Does this sound like your bike when you run higher tire pressure:

Hash, hard & has bad grip? It does to me and you know what the next line of the Ohlins manual?? ...decrease compression damping

I know you have a F4 shock but it is a good reference for tuning the shock as the controls all do the same thing.
http://www.ohlins.se/Products/Owners...M_07241-02.pdf

I would also ask what you have the compression damping set at now? and how many total "clicks" does the shock have?

That will get the rear straightened out, the front is going to be harder as there is no external compression damping adjustment.

So you will need to revalve to get things sorted.

The reason you need to do this is because of the light wheels. In simplest terms, because there is now less mass for the suspension to control, you need less damping to control it also.

So how I would start is first find out how many total "clicks" the compression adjuster has and then set it to the middle, if you haven't already done that. Run the pressure up to where it was giving you trouble in the rear and the front at the pressure you like for right now.

Then take 2 "clicks" out (or open) on the compression adjuster. Keep going out 2 "clicks" at a time until the rear just starts to get unstable or feel soft. Then go back in 2-4 "clicks" and see where you are at.

Then talk with Jammie about setting up a shim stack for the forks using the information you get by tuning the rear shock.

Plus it really is time for new forks, you will benefit greatly by doing it. If your wheels are holding you back, put the old conventional 900rr forks on there. Either way, it is time.....

mikstr

Not trying to get into a pissing contest by any means, rather, trying to set things straight in my mind.... it would seem to me that lighter wheels would need MORE damping. My reasoning is that the lighter wheels, which have less inertia, will react more quickly, needing MORE damping to maintain the same movement speed....

8541Hawk

Not at all..... the way see it is, less weight =easier to control =less damping
and the issues he is having are common for too much compression damping.

Tweety

Mikstr, you got the facts right, but the conclusion wrong...

Less weight does indeed mean faster reaction/movement, meaning if you do have to little damping it gets very nervous very quickly... But the smaller mass still needs less force to keep under control...

Think about it... Doesn't matter how you apply physics, less mass always equals less force...

nath981

glad it can be proven through science, that is, that light is right in terms of unsprung weight. Less unsprung weight hitting bumps, less force into the suspension. It's like hitting someone with a brick vs a piece of balsa wood. More weight before the springs adds to the intensity of bumps and irregularities in the road surface, and that's just the tip of the iceburg in terms of it's advantages.

nath981

I believe I have front and rear set in the middle. Front preload is set at 5 lines showing, and the rear is to be determined. Thought I had it written down, but I'll have to check it. I know it's balanced out because I can stand beside the bike, push down on the seat and the front and rear squat together.

I do have the bike raised front and rear, forks are to up to the max(level) 7.5wgt oil, rear is raised 6-8mm+ as per Jamies mod, and this somehow increased the seat height 1+" higher than OEM and of course increased clearance.

I'm going to back off the front preload and rear compress and see if I can get the tires to begin to right themselves since they are equally chaffed at the leading edge. I believe i'll run the present pressures so that I can see if the softer suspension heals the tires. I will increase pressures a little if i need to later, but they don't seem to be overheating and since they come up to 33-34+ hot, I don't believe that pressure is underinflated. I may be wrong, but we'll find out.

Changing forks and swingarm will be the last resort unless i have another git-off in which case I will upgrade w/o question.

With snow, ice , freezing rain and frigid temps, it will be a while till I get to run the bike unless global warming suddenly kicks in. haha

Gotta read the Ohlins manual as well. thanks for the link.

8541Hawk

Well first don't get preload confused with damping.

Get your sag set correctly ( I run 28mm in the rear and between 30-35mm in the front as I do brake hard and I believe you could benefit from running a little less sag in the front also)

Then start adjusting the damping settings.

As you are staying with the stock forks, you have limited options but they can be made to work pretty good. The first step is get a fork brace, yes you really need one.

Then I would switch to 5w in the forks. This might be enough but I really believe you will need to revalve the forks before you are done to get things right.

The rear will be pretty easy to set up.

So after you get the sag set, you first set the base line for the rebound.

I normally start with the forks. I set the rebound to 3 turns out and then push down, on the line of the forks. Then let the forks rebound.

This is actually the hard part to do correctly. Pushing at the angle of the forks, not straight down and letting in rebound without you hands effecting the return all the while holding the front brake takes a bit of practice. I think I sent 3-4 hours getting it right before I could get repeatable results each time. So practice it until you get it or if you just can't get the feel it is worth it to have a suspension shop do the base line setting for you.

Anyways back to the topic..... So what I do is push down on the front end and let it rebound. Then I watch the top of the wind screen. When the bike tops out it should reach the top of the stroke and "bounce" a few times. Start turning the rebound adjuster in until it just stops "bouncing" but instead just comes to the top of the stoke and stops. Then add 1\4 -1\2 a turn more. This is done because when the suspension fluid gets hot it flows easier. Normally you end up in the 1 1\2 turn out range.

The you set the rear rebound the same way. Push down and set it to just top out without bouncing then add 1\4 -1\2 a turn.

As you have no compression adjustment on the forks, there is nothing to set.

On the shock, count the total number of "clicks" of adjustment you have (there are 28 "clicks' on my shock as an example) and set it to the middle (or 14 "clicks" on my shock)

This will be your "base line" so at this point write all the settings down in what us military types call your "D.O.P.E." book. Which would be your Data On Personal Equipment book.

Now that you have the base line set and the information written down, the real work begins.

It would help to read the Ohlins manual I linked as it does explain set up very well.

Now find a section of road that you can "test" on. It should be fairly rough and a place you can do multiple "safe" runs on.

As the fork has the least adjustments I would start there. Do a few passes on your test road. Then turn the rebound adjusters all the way in. Make a few more passes and write down how it worked in your dope book. Then turn the adjusters out to around 4 turns out and repeat the test runs. Then write down how the bike feels.

The one other thing you can adjust on the forks is oil level. By raising or lowering the level you change how the "air spring" works. once again here is a link to an Ohlins manual which explains it much better than I can:
http://www.ohlins.com/Products/Owner...M_07282-05.pdf
and page 14 -15 explains oil levels. With how you brake, I believe you would benefit from a raised oil level to help prevent bottoming under hard braking. That is also why you need a fork brace ASAP.

Now return the adjusters to the base line (from your dope book) and ride it again. Now how does the bike "feel" to you? By reading your notes, would you like it better if it "felt" a little more like the harder or softer setting?

Then experiment from there, just remember to write your setting down and keep notes until you find what works best for you.

Then it's time to repeat it all for the rear set up. The process is pretty much the same but you also have compression adjustment. As the rebound should be kind of close I would start with the compression. After doing the baseline run, turn the adjuster out 2 clicks and try again. Keep doing this (and keeping notes) until the rear "feels" like it is getting "too soft" and then go back in 2-4 "clicks" this would depend on how far out you had to go to get it to the soft "feel".

Then go back and set the rebound, of course keeping notes though out the whole process. Then when you have it where it "feels" the best to you (and everyone's set up is different, that is why you have to keep notes as it's all about how it feels to you) go out and keep experimenting for a while by maybe a 1\4 turn more or less rebound or +\- 1 "click" of compression until you are completely happy then write down all your settings including sag and fork oil level and keep the DOPE book on the bike so you can always return the bike to those settings.

It's a bit of work but well worth the time. By how you ride the bike, it is well worth your time. Not only will you be able to carry the same speed with much less effort, you will be able to do it safer and your tires will last much longer. Win-Win no matter how you look at it.

nath981

well yeah, i am getting screwed up here on the preload vs compression thing and in the Ohlins manual, it says preload controls ride height, geometry(swingarm angle) and chain stretch. So everything is gonna follow preload as all settings are based on correct preload settings.

Accord to my records, I have the sag at 36 rear and 30 front.

Anyway, basically I'm starting over, and it sounds like:

1)the first thing is to take the fork oil out
2)and find the actual fork bottom out point(accord to the OOT video) and record result
3)then put 5wgt
4)determine ride height by adjusting preload front and rear
5)then set sag front and rear
6)get another case of beer and get prepared for stage 2

Does that sound right?

All because of a little chaffing on the leading edge. Dam Pures anyway! haha

speedkelly@aol.com