cliby

here: this should confuse things:

https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ck+ride+height

trinc

Rake: 24.9 degrees
Trail: 97.0mm

tim

thanks Tim,
these measurements are beyond my technical expertise. I'm sure if I had lasers or other geometric tools, a couple more hands, and a description of rake and trail handy to refresh my memory on exactly how to ascertain this info, I might be able to benefit from these figures. However, that's not the case.

I'm functionally geometrically handicapped. I could relate better to a simple ratio---- OEM front:OEM rear as Racetech front:shimmed rear. unfortunately, I neglected to record these settings when I should have. I can wing it by feel, but I'd rather start with settings in the ballpark and tweek thereof.

thanks, nathan[/QUOTE]

just wait to ride it then ( after your sag is set ). you may add a couple mm to the front from replacing the springs & 6mm in the rear by shim washers... so you're basically + a couple mm in the rear. it'll turn in a little lighter.

how much lighter ? it will depend on the tire profile. i run DOT race tires and thought the steering was fine... running +5 mm in the rear with pirelli's dragons and it's really quick, dunlop N-tecs (211's) are a little slower. i run a steering damper ( set pretty tight ) so i don't feel any straight line instability.

in the end there are so many variables & personal preferences that you just need to take the time riding the bike & see how you like it. with the adjustments you made it's not going to be dramatically different.

anybody looking at increased steering speed should think about new head bearings. OEM ones are crap.

tim

RK1

Deciding how and where to measure, how to extrapolate those measurements into what adjustment to make etc. is I think more trouble than it's worth.

The closest thing to a consensus on front height after installing proper weight springs seems to be pulling up the tubes about 10mm.

When all is said and done, you just have to ride the thing and decide what you like.

cliby

I certainly agree that measuring can be a disaster in accuracy and of questionable value if starting near stock. However, setting sag should be easy -- and something is seriously set up funny on the bike if he can no longer use the side stand on level ground. Also remember 6mm at the shock is then progressive at the axle end of things (I don't know the ratio for our bikes but could by as much as 3 fold).

RK1

Bill;

I'm guessing his bike is leaning over way far because he's jacked up the rear 6mm at the shock and his front is up about 10mm with the new springs. He could set the sag now 'cause even if he ended up pulling up the fork tubes later and even if he eliminated or reduced the shock spacer height, it wouldn't change the sag enough to make a difference.

But even if he set the sag now, I'd bet his bike will still be leaning over on the side stand about as much as it is right now.

Like I said, I've got 4mm worth of spacer above my shock, same springs and OAL spring/spacer as his. I pulled up my fork tubes 11mm, set preload same as with stock springs (4 lines showing) and checked my sag. It was spot on perfect. My bike now leans over a bit more on the side stand but nothing to worry about.

nath981

[QUOTE=cliby; and something is seriously set up funny on the bike if he can no longer use the side stand on level ground. .[/QUOTE]

I thought so too until Trinc(tim) said he has a similar ride height(6MM)with OEM fork height(in fork tubes)and lengthened his sisdestand 1/2" as shown earlier on this thread, plus he's using that way for track days. I'm using a
3/4" board under the sidestand and it seems about right.

i just thought, perhaps mistakenly, that there was a general front back attitude, a balance point, a leveling of the bike that should be attained as a first step, but I'm slowly getting the opinion that maybe there isn't.

thanks, nathan

Tweety

Actually since I'm in the process of trying to figure out the linkage ratio for the rear end swap I'm doing I have calculated the ratio... It's very close to 2.7 (atleast with my half forgotten attempt at maths)... So 6 mm should be a 16.2 mm difference in rideheigh... That combined with a rise of atleast 5 mm up front from the springs... (probably closer to 10 mm, mine was atleast that much higher...) would make the side stand close to unusable on level ground...

I started out dropping the front 5 mm (front down, legs up) and testing it... then 10 mm then 15 mm... Ended up at 17 mm down from stock height, and has since replicated that height with the CBR1000RR forks... Altough I'm considering going up to 12 mm which is the highest possible with this fork...

And I did this with my completely unscientific control method of measuring the point of my exhaust that I previously had damaged as I tried the lowering with stock forks... And it's actually rather close to stock ground clearence at that point with my raised rear combined with the dropped front... The angle of the bike is decidedly more forward, but the lowest point was what interested me most, as I'm trying to not bust up another pipe...

nath981

thanks for the link cliby. It was so interesting it made my head hurt. You guys are too wild. I guess I'm going to have to buy a frame shop complete with high tech machines and personnel to match. Then I'll give them the superhawk and instruct them to read these forums and implement the recommendations therein. When they've finished, I'll take her out for a spin and let you know how it works.

thanks, Nathan

nath981

[QUOTE=Tweety;197528]Actually since I'm in the process of trying to figure out the linkage ratio for the rear end swap I'm doing I have calculated the ratio... It's very close to 2.7 (atleast with my half forgotten attempt at maths)... So 6 mm should be a 16.2 mm difference in rideheigh... QUOTE]

2.7 sounds like a reasonable estimate. I'll try it and see how it works out. Is this set up stable without a steering stabilizer? Trinc didn't raise his forks, but uses a stabilizer set very stiff, so I'm assuming his setting requires one to quell headshake. Since I don't have a SS, I'll try your ratio approach.

thanks, Nathan

Firestorm996

I got the same problem with a scary lean angle when i got the 6mm spacer fitted in. It got worse with the Oehlins fork springs, lowering the front for 12mm helped a bit.
The pic shows the angle before the fork springs went in...

RK1

Pardon me for having a few drinks and wanting to have some fun with this thread. I think you should get yourself a slide rule or rent some time on a Cray computer, take a few engineering courses and in consultation with professors of frameology and forkanomics, endeavor to determine the correct interface betwixed the unsprung extremities and overall gestalt of your motorized transportation device.

OR

You could just pull up the fork tubes 5-10mm and see what it feels like. That's what I did. My bike handles very nicely and rests properly on its side stand, thank you. I'm as happy as a clam. That is all.

nath981

yeah, mine looks like about 15 degrees worse with the springs. Hey, from what I can see, looks like an awesome ride you got there.

thanks, nathan

Tweety

[QUOTE=nath981;197559]I'm not sure if we understood each other... The ratio was for calculating the rear rise at the wheel... Ie 6mm rear spacer x 2.7 = how much higher at the rear...

nath981

Believe me RK, if I could get out of my garage right now(as in, snow/ice/freeze), it would be a different story. that said, however, I have not figured how to achieve satisfactory handling on my xr650l after a lowering link, raised forks, and added fork spacer. I know a steering stabilizer would offset or help control my less than optimum settings, but I don't have a thou to by a couple of them. My daughter borrows the xr for work trips to save on gas and because she loves bikes, hence the lowering. I haven't landed on satisfactory settings yet as the stability deterioates at higher speeds.

anyway, I should have learned from that experience that for those of us geometrically challanged trial and error pilots who love to use the sides of our tires, motorcycle suspensions can be perplexing to say the least. For a baseline, i maybe should have deferred to those who have demonstrated that they know, e.g., honda, at minimum for basic balance or front back attitude. The superhawk, and even the xr, in stock form handle road duties fairly well or they wouldn't have been attractive to many of us in the first place. They are, however, no perfect by a long shot either and that's what we're doing here.

I appreciate all the input from you guys who offer your experience, support, and even your sarcasm RK. It's awesome.

thanks, nathan

nath981

[QUOTE=Tweety;197584]you might be right tweety. I just figured you multiplied 6mm x 2.7= 16.2mm, which is the amount you raise the forks to balance out the rear suspension rise considering the increase in height of the stronger springs. is that correct?

thanks, Nathan

trinc

can anybody take some free sag ( no rider ) numbers on stock springs - full soft - full hard ?

tim

nath981

Yo Tim,

i just read your message on the steering stabilizer and your rationale for not raising forks unless for inseam challenge and then it disappeared<WTH happened to it. did you delete it? Anyway, I'm glad you clarified that for me and I do believe that I'll try it w/o raising and see what goes----soon as the weather breaks a little.
I don't have use of a track closeby, but i do ride certain roads consistently to check changes like this out. I just did a bunch of little things that I'll have to get used to, e.g., rotated pegs rearwards about an inch which also lifted them about 1 1/2" cause I always kept moving my feet for and aft, galfer line/brakes, 520 vortex down 1f up 2r, tech spec grip to help you hold on a bit, etc. Anxious to feel the suspension changes.

apersheate the explanations, Nathan

trinc

after i re-read it, it seemed to go over the same points i've made previous so i deleted it.

basically honda engineered the rake & trail and they're smarter than i am. my point can't be made clear until the stock sag settings are known. with a stiff rear spring and soft fork springs i'd have to think honda knew that people would be cranking down the preload on the forks. the geometry of the bike will have a 'range' because of the preload adjustments.

to the point ( kickstand ). i did my front fork springs and the kickstand was fine. i shim'd the rear shock and had to 'fix' my kick stand. seems pretty simple.

how did you rotate your pegs ? i'm thinking of getting rearsets ... but $$$

heres my right peg !


and my toe sliders



tim

RK1

[QUOTE=nath981;197588]Nope. When you RAISE the fork tubes you actually LOWER the front of the bike. And the ratio of fork lift to front bike height change is not one to one 'cause the forks are not perpendicular to the ground.

Most guys compensate for the heavier springs by pulling up the forks (aka lowering the front of bike) 10mm.

In your case it might be less than 10mm 'cause of the 6mm spacer you have over the shock.

And if you stay with a 6mm spacer over the shock you might still have to get used to the bike leaning way over or mod the side stand.

Or you might want to use a thinner spacer or no spacer. That would be the easiest way to solve the side stand lean problem.

nath981

how did you rotate your pegs ? i'm thinking of getting rearsets ... but $$$

heres my right peg !


and my toe sliders



tim[/QUOTE]

nice job on you pegs tim!!! I can see why you don't want to lower anything/

rotate pegs/controls was easy. I saw someone had pics on it and like you, I wanted rearsets.

1)all you have to do is losen the swingarm bolt and remove the other two bolts on each side. losen the lock nuts on shifter are and lengthen a few turns.
2)figure how far up you want your pegs because they go up more than back--mine went back an inch and up an inch and 1/2. The bottom of my peg is almost level with the top of the swingarm, so you might want less.
3)cut some small rectangular pieces of aluminum, hold one behind each bolt as you rotate it back and mark the holes you will drill. Use longer bolts to attach, then do the rear one that attaches to the muffler brace.
4) do other side to match and tighten up swingarm bolt and lock nuts on shifter. adjust rear brake and that's it.

I'll try to find the pics i used and give you the link. the guy that thought of this had a good idea.

let me know if you need anything.

thanks, nathan

nath981

[QUOTE=RK1;197621]
my newest experience with this:

6mm shim raised rear approx 3/4".
RT springs at OEM height(spacer/spring length).
sidestand had to be shimmed3/4".

dropped front end 11mm, and then had to reduce sidestand shim from 3/4" to 11mm for the bike to sit at acceptable angle.

relative to shimming the sidestand, I drilled a hole in the pad at the bottom, cut 3 little circles with a holesaw 1/4" thick of plastic/hard rubber material as in semi-truck mudflap, countersunk the bottom shim so that bottom side was flat with no protrusion. After dropping the front end, I had to take out 2 of the 3 shims out for the bike to rest at a good angle. Appearance hardly noticeable, allows easy adjustibility until you arrive at permanent setting if there is such a thing.

thanks, nathan