kickstand too short after fork/shock mods
 

i put racetech .85 fork springs and cut spacers so that the combined length matched the stock set up exactly. I also put four body washers(6mm) at top of shock mount. Now the bike sits so high that I need to put a 3/4" board under the kickstand to allow it to rest at a reasonable angle. Is this typical? I searched "short kickstand" and came up zip. I have read hundreds of posts and have never heard tis issue discussed other than a couple riders said that their bikes fell after the tire went flat.

I want to ride this thing to find out how it handles but it's 10 degrees with ice everywhere.

can anyone offer some insights on the short stand?

i made mine a little longer by adding some material to the bottom of the stand. IIRC i had 1/2" added.

http://www.pacifier.com/~trinc/images/kickstand.jpg

tim

so your mods added about 1/2" to your height. nice job. what mods did you do that added the height?

The bike will be farther from the vertical on the sidestand when you've put washers between the shock mount and the frame and you're using the same preload with the .85's that you used with the stock springs. Have you checked for the proper amount of sag front and rear? Have you tried raising the forks in the triples?

I can see that there is some sag as i can pull it up about an inch or two after it settles. I didn't want to raise the forks till I saw how it handles, but maybe I should.

i have a penske shock that has a ride height adjustment & am running it about 5-6 mm longer than stock. ( this is the same as using a 5mm shim under the top shock mount on the OEM unit ).

my forks tubes are at OEM height but have .95 straight rate springs.

tim

did you cut the spacers for OEM overall spring/ spacer length as I did? about 16"

yes. i did it a couple years ago so i don't remember the length. it was perfect for me as my sag/preload adjust is at the 3rd line.

tim

thanks Tim,

I tightened the fork caps and backed off the compression and rebound to nothing. I guess I'm surprised that I have never seen any reference to sidestand mods, until yours, or replacement with those that have done these mods.

I'm definitely going to have to do something because it's scary looking. At least I know that if was sitting at this extreme angle and the rear tire went flat, it wouldn't fall over, huh//

thanks, Nathan

As said above, set your sag properly front and back before you mod your kickstand. You don't want to un-mod it later.

okay I'll do this. thanks for the heads-up. Is it common to mod the side stand after these suspension changes?

I don't have enough experience to say if it's common. I put a CBR1000 front end on and a length-adjustable rear shock on (similar to Trinc's). The bike was a little taller, so it leaned more. Shortening the shock put it back to a nice lean. Remember, with the shock linkage, a half inch longer on the shock makes the bike sit about an inch higher.

setting proper sag is very important but will have little to do with this problem: shimming or adding 5mm to the rear shock will make the bike taller thus the stand too short.

before i 'repaired' my stand i'd always make sure i parked against the camber of the road. it did make turning the bike around easier though ( for those that use the stand to pivot the bike )

tim

Nath;

I set my bike up pretty much the same as yours- .85 Racetechs, new springs+spacers same OAL as old springs+spacers. I've got 4mm worth of shim on top of rear shock.

That left the bike way over on the side stand and also left the front end way too high when I test rode it.

If you want to ride it before deciding about lifting the fork tubes, I'd just leave it all alone until you can do that.

I pulled the tubes up 11mm and then set the sag. Worked out perfect for me. My bike leans a bit more on the stand than it did stock, but not enough to worry about.

With the thicker shim over your rear shock you probably wouldn't want to pull the forks up as much as I did.

I'd make sure the front/rear attitude was good and set the sag before I'd think about adding metal to the side stand.

threre are some posts on here with some fixed point measurements as stock. If you are leaning that much you have altered the rear and probably front ride height quite a bit and handling will be changes as a result. Most on this site have raised the rear end a bit (remember what you raise the shock will be amplified at the rear end of the bike) and lowered the front end to improve turn in. I'd check the other posts and see how far off you are. The sag is very important to measure carefully and accurately - if the preload is too stiff it will have the same effect as raising ride height as your static sag will be too low. Important to maintain handling to get this set up properly

One factor that you neglect trinc, when saying sag doesn't affect the stand... With stock forks you have a lot more static sag than when the springs are changed...

That most definetly affects the stand length... And that is also why RK1 ended up pulling up his forks a bit... as well as most others have done... Either up in the rear or down in the front...

if I'm thinking right, sag is when you push the front down forcefully, let it rebound naturally and settle, then pull up on the bars to determine sag. is this correct? If so, I can only pull the forks up a couple inches after it settles and given that the compression and rebound are set at zero, what options are there?

thanks for the feeback, Nathan

Setting sag is a bit more involved than that. It is basically the difference between how the front and rear sit when the bike is upright with nobody on it vs. how it sits with you on it. I'm too tired right now, but if you use the search engine, "setting sag", I'm sure you'll find it explained.

that's okay RK. I did set the sag on my other bike(xr650l) after a Kouba Link and fork spacer insert a couple years ago, so I can retrieve the info(since my memory sucks-maybe too many get-offs) for setting sag/

apersheate the help, Nathan

raise front (or rear) and measure total free length on the slider part of the fork (or from axle nut to fixed point direct above it on the frame for rear). Let bike settle straight up, no rider. Measure new length - the difference is static sag. There is always some stiction in the system so you can measure the static sag by first pressing down on the suspension and letting is rise slowly and second by raising the bike and letting it sink slowly - that should give you a range of as much as 10mm or so - split the difference between the two. Finally, take a third set of measurements with you on board (need helpers) - that is real sag (dynamic or a bunch of other terms). Make sure they are all right for street riding (your choice but around 25-35mm)

Actually Hawkrider has a good howto on http://www.superhawk996.net/...

there are a number of sites that talk about setting suspension ... sportbike
forks are said to have 15-20mm free sag & around 35mm rider sag.

when i first measured my forks ( before buying springs ) i thought i was really close to the free sag numbers ( way off on rider sag ). probably had the preload dialed in.

greg talks about raising the forks but imo he's talking about riding geometry ( rider sag ) which is NOT the same thing as free sag.


tim

Yeah I know it was for riding geometry... but like all other things it's connected...:)

And if your free sag/static sag was "correct" with stock springs you must have cranked the preload to max?! Mine wasn't even close...

And with .1kg/mm springs and the correct sag on my modified forks before doing the front swap my bike looked like a damned chopper... seriously to high up front and in need of a lot higher stand... I ended up dropping it down 14 mm in the front... was a good geometry for riding and as a side effect the stand was also reasonably right...

i probably had it all the way, which may be why i didn't think it changed much ? but for anybody that is going to change springs wouldn't they have it cranked down also ?

no matter though. set up your bike to how you like it & ride. i do trackdays so i wouldn't lower the front end & loose ground clearance. another reason why aftermarket shocks are great - easy rear ride height adjustments !

tim

Oh don't worry about the groundclearance... I made a hole the size of dollar on my pipe...:( Then I had all the clearence I needed...:) But my engine needed adjusting for the "modified" exhaust...

My front now isn't dropped at all (besides the fact that the CBR1000RR forks are a tad shorter than stock...) And yes it was cranked all the way for me and still not close when I was on it with stock... Now I have it raised about 7 mm in the rear (at shock) so now the stand is a tad short for me...

sounds like my '62' 750cc Norton Atlas. I had reverse cone megaphones ground flat on the sides-who need knee pucks, huh!

Seriously, I think RK is onto something with getting the front back attitude right first before anything. This is something I thought about too late. I should have taken measurements before the mods so I could have some frame of reference for front back attitude. I need to do this I believe to find out if I need to shorten the fork spacers or whatever.


Is there some guideline for proper front back attitude since mine is now gone?

is there a rule of thumb for front/back attitude?
 

RK)I'd make sure the front/rear attitude was good and set the sag before I'd think about adding metal to the side stand.[/QUOTE]

is there a good starting point for front rear balance? I know it's a personal thing based on feel. trinc(tim) is doing track days and left his front high after mods, while others have raised forks to compensate for newly spring front end.

I didn't measure the front before modding, although I felt that the OEM front end was a bit low. That said, I never experienced any instability except for a couple get-offs which I attributed to a 7000mi front tire(OEM dunlop 204).

anyway, can anyone offer a starting point for front/rear attitude or balance.

thanks, Nathan

is there a good starting point for front rear balance? I know it's a personal thing based on feel. trinc(tim) is doing track days and left his front high after mods, while others have raised forks to compensate for newly spring front end.

I didn't measure the front before modding, although I felt that the OEM front end was a bit low. That said, I never experienced any instability except for a couple get-offs which I attributed to a 7000mi front tire(OEM dunlop 204).

anyway, can anyone offer a starting point for front/rear attitude or balance.

thanks, Nathan[/QUOTE]

Rake: 24.9 degrees
Trail: 97.0mm

tim

anyway, can anyone offer a starting point for front/rear attitude or balance.

thanks, Nathan[/quote]

Rake: 24.9 degrees
Trail: 97.0mm

tim

thanks Tim,
these measurements are beyond my technical expertise. I'm sure if I had lasers or other geometric tools, a couple more hands, and a description of rake and trail handy to refresh my memory on exactly how to ascertain this info, I might be able to benefit from these figures. However, that's not the case.

I'm functionally geometrically handicapped. I could relate better to a simple ratio---- OEM front:OEM rear as Racetech front:shimmed rear. unfortunately, I neglected to record these settings when I should have. I can wing it by feel, but I'd rather start with settings in the ballpark and tweek thereof.

thanks, nathan

SET YOUR SAG FIRST, that is largely going to be independent of where you set your ride height (within reason). Once your sag is right, the rest is getting back to stock ride height (with rise in the rear from your spacers). Then you can make minor adjustments by riding it and testing.

The measurements on on this site somewhere - somebody was asking after a frontend swap last year, might have even been greg. If you want some specifici measurements and can't find them on search maybe start a new thread with the specific question. Be prepared though - you need to specify what you want measured on a stock set up bike with sag set to a known amount - otherwise it will just be wasted measuring as there are too many variables. Pick a couple of fixed points to measure to.