J&E 11.5 to 1 CR pistons
09-19-2013, 04:09 PM
#1
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Squid
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J&E 11.5 to 1 CR pistons
Have any of you guys replaced your stock Honda 9.4 to 1 compression ratio pistons with J&E 11.5 to 1 pistons when you re-built your Superhawk? How did it run with them?
J&E only makes these in standard bore size, no oversizes, so I guess a worn cylinder would have to be replaced or horrors, sleeved, to use these high compression pistons.
J&E only offers these for 1998 thru 2001 Superhawks, what is the difference in pistons in 2002 and later Superhawks from the 2001 and earlier bikes?
J&E only makes these in standard bore size, no oversizes, so I guess a worn cylinder would have to be replaced or horrors, sleeved, to use these high compression pistons.
J&E only offers these for 1998 thru 2001 Superhawks, what is the difference in pistons in 2002 and later Superhawks from the 2001 and earlier bikes?
09-22-2013, 01:35 PM
#2
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Whatever you do - choose a different brand. JE is horrible to deal with. Plus, as you have noticed, they only make (made) standard bore. Try Arias or Weisco instead, I think you'll be much happier. They are technically "custom" from those places so you would need to buy 4 pistons. I'm sure you would have no problem peddling off the extra two.
09-22-2013, 07:54 PM
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an overbore may require a rejet though not always. I'm not sure if the VTR cylinder is a coated cylinder or not but if it is it needs to be recoated after the bore, if not you just need to drop the cylinders off at a good machine shop and have them punched out and throw some new pistons in it along with some new head gaskets and base gaskets.
A good machine shop will want the pistons before they bore the cylinders so they can match the cylinders perfectly to the new pistons, at least thats the way the machine shop I always work with works, but they build race engines there for people so they are perfectionists and want to make sure everything is 100% all the time for everybody, and bonus they are fairly cheep. I had them punch out a set of cylinders for a jet ski for me and they only charged me $30 for it
A good machine shop will want the pistons before they bore the cylinders so they can match the cylinders perfectly to the new pistons, at least thats the way the machine shop I always work with works, but they build race engines there for people so they are perfectionists and want to make sure everything is 100% all the time for everybody, and bonus they are fairly cheep. I had them punch out a set of cylinders for a jet ski for me and they only charged me $30 for it
09-23-2013, 09:26 AM
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Really two choices if the bores are worn or damaged.
Bore over size, use custom pistons.
Bore, sleeve, use 98mm off the shelf pistons or larger if desired.
Secondary question is, do you update old tech iron liners to Nickel Silicon Carbide coated.
For me the answer is simple.. why go though all that and not do it the better way.
Others will say the old school, iron liner works well enough, why spend the money. To each his own.
Bore over size, use custom pistons.
Bore, sleeve, use 98mm off the shelf pistons or larger if desired.
Secondary question is, do you update old tech iron liners to Nickel Silicon Carbide coated.
For me the answer is simple.. why go though all that and not do it the better way.
Others will say the old school, iron liner works well enough, why spend the money. To each his own.
09-23-2013, 10:51 AM
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09-23-2013, 01:59 PM
#9
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personally proper tuning of both engine and suspension are better places to start than high compression pistons.
One of the guys that got me into SH's has a stock hawk, except for HC pistons 107hp to the wheel with a tweeked version of (Hawk8541) carb set up, and I am putting down 108hp to the wheel, a flatter toque curve and can take him in the straights and corners. i weigh about 50lbs more and have all stock internals on my motor, just a DJ kit, K&N and full DMr suspension.
Only difference is i spent alot of time dyno tuning because i was bound and determined to get the Dynojet kit and K&N to work properly together and finally did, and it paid off.
I feel like anything more than 110hp is useless on the street for this bike.
But again it may be off topic and is definatly just my opinion.
One of the guys that got me into SH's has a stock hawk, except for HC pistons 107hp to the wheel with a tweeked version of (Hawk8541) carb set up, and I am putting down 108hp to the wheel, a flatter toque curve and can take him in the straights and corners. i weigh about 50lbs more and have all stock internals on my motor, just a DJ kit, K&N and full DMr suspension.
Only difference is i spent alot of time dyno tuning because i was bound and determined to get the Dynojet kit and K&N to work properly together and finally did, and it paid off.
I feel like anything more than 110hp is useless on the street for this bike.
But again it may be off topic and is definatly just my opinion.
Last edited by sailorjerry; 09-23-2013 at 02:04 PM.
09-23-2013, 03:07 PM
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Ahh my bad sorry. Every other motorcycle I've ever worked on the cylinders are separate from the transmission case and I just assumed the hawk was the same. Haven't dove that far into the engine and hopefully will never have the need.
09-23-2013, 03:36 PM
#11
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High comp pistons
I have 2 seasons on my SH since I completed my engine upgrade: Moriwaki stg 1 cams, JE pistons +.25mm, lightened flywheel, ported heads and full ti Morwaki exhaust. Lots of other details but you get the idea, does all this make sense? Economically it's pretty dumb, but I like working on the bike and, with the exception of the machining, I did all my own work and really enjoyed doing it.
To answer how it runs, it's really strong and is a blast to ride. I have not dynoed it, and it took some trial and error to get it tuned correctly, but the jetting is not terribly different than when it was stock with slipons.
When I started the engine build, the hawk was my street bike and I'd track it occasionally. I have since dedicated another bike for my track days. It's now my do-everything bike, and it brings a smile to my face every time I ride it. Would I recommend it? Absolutely. Is it for everyone? Don't think so.
To answer how it runs, it's really strong and is a blast to ride. I have not dynoed it, and it took some trial and error to get it tuned correctly, but the jetting is not terribly different than when it was stock with slipons.
When I started the engine build, the hawk was my street bike and I'd track it occasionally. I have since dedicated another bike for my track days. It's now my do-everything bike, and it brings a smile to my face every time I ride it. Would I recommend it? Absolutely. Is it for everyone? Don't think so.
09-23-2013, 03:58 PM
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For most it is about service replacements... Iron cylinders are crap, have been for many years. They wear, they oval.. they are better crap then what we had before, but still crap in compare with what is available now.
And As all cylinder liners will.. they wear.. as there is no oversize piston available...... you have to address that when you need a service replacement.
So... .. replace the entire cylinder/case with new and use OEM sized pistons? Bore the cylinders to clean up and re-size then purchase a set of custom pistons? or have sleeves installed and bored to 98mm then use OEM sized pistons, or larger if you want.
Plating the iron liner is a secondary decision.
I've only had two VTR engines apart,, both had worn cylinders, oval and tapered. Perhaps those were teh exception and everyone else has perfectly round used cylinders 98mm in diameter, no taper.. And can clean the bore with a light hone and use new OEM sized pistons and rings.... I doubt it,, but sure it could happen.
So anyone that has had a VTR engine apart and measured the cylinders with a bore dial gauge.....speak up
Last edited by E.Marquez; 09-23-2013 at 04:01 PM.
09-23-2013, 07:12 PM
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I have the heads off mine right now, I will take a pair of calipers out there at some point and measure if you would seriously like me too. Engine has 35k on it right now
09-23-2013, 07:24 PM
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I have one apart but unfortunately i don't have a bore dial gauge. I used the spring loaded things and a mic which is not as good and it shows them straight. Now I am not saying they are as i want to have it done with a bore gauge will have to take it to the machine shop to find out. That said if it is out of spec what is the right way to bore it out. I have a set of new J&E 11.5 to 1 98mm pistons that I got from someone not on the forum. If I need oversize piston what is the right way or is it better to use the 98mm and sleeve them?
09-24-2013, 12:09 PM
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Just thought that I would bring you guys up to date as someone reminded me honda makes over-sized pistions for the VTR so why could you not bore it out that is why I posted above. Did not know if there was a weakness in the casing from cylinder wall to thin or something like that. here is a link to over-sized pistons out to .50
CRANKSHAFT PISTON
CRANKSHAFT PISTON
09-24-2013, 12:54 PM
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Just thought that I would bring you guys up to date as someone reminded me honda makes over-sized pistions for the VTR so why could you not bore it out that is why I posted above. Did not know if there was a weakness in the casing from cylinder wall to thin or something like that. here is a link to over-sized pistons out to .50
CRANKSHAFT PISTON
CRANKSHAFT PISTON
So send yer cases off to someplace like millennium technologies Millennium Technologies LLC: Cylinder Plating and Repair Services, Head Repair, Head Porting and Big Bore Kits
Have it bored to fit the pistons you supply (send cases first, have them tell you if you can use the .25 or need the .50)
09-24-2013, 05:09 PM
#18
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When I did my build I recall at least one previous thread where the bores looked good but when measured the builder found excessive taper. That is why I measured before I purchased the pistons, I could still see the cross hatched patern in the bore yet the front cylinder had excessive taper, rear was fine. I would recommend checking with a bore gauge. I was concerned about engine temp so I only went oversize enough to ensure a good bore.
09-24-2013, 05:34 PM
#19
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Don't mean to be argumentative but taper is only relevent if it's in the stroke of the piston. VTR's have a 68mm stroke which is a little over 2.5 inches, any taper below that is really irelevent provided there is no scoring on the cylinder or piston skirt.
Granted in the best of all possible worlds (forgive me again Voltaire) everything would be balanced and blueprinted. But many/most can't afford that so a little common ense and review of the specs can take you a long way.
I'll give you a tuning trick from the 70"s. You can take stock rings and put them in the cylinder (after deglazing the first few millimeters. Meaure the ring end gap in as many points as you want, if it's in spec pop a piston in and go about your business!
I believe in the KISS principle, Keep It Simple Stupid!
Granted in the best of all possible worlds (forgive me again Voltaire) everything would be balanced and blueprinted. But many/most can't afford that so a little common ense and review of the specs can take you a long way.
I'll give you a tuning trick from the 70"s. You can take stock rings and put them in the cylinder (after deglazing the first few millimeters. Meaure the ring end gap in as many points as you want, if it's in spec pop a piston in and go about your business!
I believe in the KISS principle, Keep It Simple Stupid!
Last edited by HRCA#1; 09-24-2013 at 05:36 PM. Reason: Spelling
09-24-2013, 06:34 PM
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Short cuts about,,just because the motor ran well enough after such "tuning tricks" does not mean it ran well, or as well as it should have.
Some do a leak down and are ok with 10~15% .. I like to see 3% or less.
Last edited by E.Marquez; 09-24-2013 at 06:39 PM.
09-24-2013, 06:48 PM
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Erik, as I said in the best of all possible worlds we would balance and blueprint everything, although my bore spec would be on the looser side of stock because race bikes generate much more heat than street bikes, for a street bike and street riders it simply isn't necessary.
Will it make max HP probably not but it will run reliably. Don't disregard what us old folks have learned over years of experience and in my case years of roadracing and working for two race teams.
Will it make max HP probably not but it will run reliably. Don't disregard what us old folks have learned over years of experience and in my case years of roadracing and working for two race teams.
Last edited by HRCA#1; 09-24-2013 at 07:00 PM. Reason: spelling
09-24-2013, 07:26 PM
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Erik, as I said in the best of all possible worlds we would balance and blueprint everything, although my bore spec would be on the looser side of stock because race bikes generate much more heat than street bikes, for a street bike and street riders it simply isn't necessary.
Will it make max HP probably not but it will run reliably. Don't disregard what us old folks have learned over years of experience and in my case years of roadracing and working for two race teams.
Will it make max HP probably not but it will run reliably. Don't disregard what us old folks have learned over years of experience and in my case years of roadracing and working for two race teams.
Ya ok that came across harsher then I intended it to be received.
I've only been doing this 30 or so years, and only about half of that for others.
For sure... more then once I've taken those very same short cuts because that is what there was money for, and need outweighed a better way.
And with just a bit of common sense it can be made to work as long as the owner understands the risks involved..
Reusing rings and even .......parish the though piston pin clips or valve cotters.. because it was that or not race / ride...
So Im not saying short cuts and reusing used parts that are basically still serviceable will not get a motor running again
Just that, an eyes wide open approach needs to be taken.. As you said, in a perfect world..... or as I would say, the better way...... a new motor would be new when reassembled... not a mix of worn but serviceable used parts and new to build a run-able motor.
09-25-2013, 06:45 AM
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To me, installing a used piston that's only "worn to within the limits" in a cylinder that's only "worn to within the limits" is the same thing... Not bad or wrong in itself, so long as all understand what you are getting in the end.
The other thing I also keep in mind.. for many, a complete motor tear down, clean and inspect is a major deal,, wither they attempt it themselves or pay a shop. Why do all that if your not going to rebuild it with new parts where worn ones are found or parts that are not just "Worn to within the limits" ?
Seems like a waste of time, effort and money.. ... Piston, rings, valves, all service wear items...replaceable and disposable.
For sure if a part is not worn past service limits it can be reused... just consider the life remaining in that part and the hassle, time, expense in replacing it a short time later with it's worn past the limits.
Those that do there own work, I think often forget that.... .. I have my sons, mine and three others dirt bikes that are apart sometimes weekly, but at least every few months... So yes... leaving a piston that has 10 hours and is only worn say 1/2 way to the limit makes sense as I'll be back into it in a few months at most anyway.
When I split the cases on my SH this winter.... after 4X,XXXX some odd miles... I do not plan on going back into it for another 10-20 years...so it'll get something better then pistons and cylinders that are just "not worn out"
To each his own...
Last edited by E.Marquez; 09-25-2013 at 06:54 AM.
09-25-2013, 08:24 AM
#25
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Again I think you're reading something into what I said. I advised Stumpy that if his bore was truly straight and within spec he could bead hone it and pop in his "NEW" HC pistons. If the bore is out of spec it's a different conversation!
09-25-2013, 09:23 AM
#26
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I'd call that a short cut and or a cheap thing done in the 70's, 80's and 2013 because someone is unwilling or able to correctly build the engine.
Short cuts about,,just because the motor ran well enough after such "tuning tricks" does not mean it ran well, or as well as it should have.
Some do a leak down and are ok with 10~15% .. I like to see 3% or less.
Short cuts about,,just because the motor ran well enough after such "tuning tricks" does not mean it ran well, or as well as it should have.
Some do a leak down and are ok with 10~15% .. I like to see 3% or less.
Well yes, but that statement is not entirely true..
Me Being a technician in this day and age, checking ring gap is still a preliminary test to measuring cylinder with a bore guage. Ford, international, cummins, and catapillar all use this test still and want the mesurements for waranty claims.
So just for the record it is not a 1970's short cut as you put it. If ring gap is out, cylinder is out, then you mesure the cyl to find out how much.
09-25-2013, 09:49 AM
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Well yes, but that statement is not entirely true..
Me Being a technician in this day and age, checking ring gap is still a preliminary test to measuring cylinder with a bore guage. Ford, international, cummins, and catapillar all use this test still and want the mesurements for waranty claims.
So just for the record it is not a 1970's short cut as you put it. If ring gap is out, cylinder is out, then you measure the cyl to find out how much.
Me Being a technician in this day and age, checking ring gap is still a preliminary test to measuring cylinder with a bore guage. Ford, international, cummins, and catapillar all use this test still and want the mesurements for waranty claims.
So just for the record it is not a 1970's short cut as you put it. If ring gap is out, cylinder is out, then you measure the cyl to find out how much.
Measuring the bore IS how you measure the bore.... Measuring ring gap is ,,,well how you find out what the ring gap is.
If the tech working on the worn motor is the same tech that built it (Common on a engine used in a race bike,.. an engine that is torn down often.. ) then sure a down and dirty ring gap measurement will give you an indicator of bore condition..
BUT the time it takes to get rings in the cylinder at a set depth, and square in the cylinder no more or less then taking a real measurement with a dial bore gauge.
Sailor , your comparing apples to fruit cake here
What is needed to satisfy a warranty repair to "Ford, international, cummins, and catapillar" has little at all to do with what we are talking about here.
I've clocked a few hours doing Warranty stuff for more then one shop.. I'f failure with the crap required to justify a warranty parts claim... as well as the times we could not get an associated part covered even though we knew the warranted covered part was the cause.. and many other nonsense that is part of a warranty job.. though never done in the powersports arena.. for that i get to listen to my wife who is a Service adviser ...and gets to deal with it every day.
Last edited by E.Marquez; 09-25-2013 at 09:56 AM.
09-25-2013, 10:09 AM
#28
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I never mentioned it was a better check to use than mesuring the bore properly, I stated myself it is used in conjunction with mesuring with a bore guage.....
I also never stated that Honda would give you the min and max specs for ring gap, where as Ford, Cummins, Caterpillar and others do. I was simply stating that is usefull as a preliminary check, and also a good place to start if you do not have the proper tool on hand which 90% of the world does not have a bore guage lying around, but is more likely to have a feeler guage laying around.
I will be the first to say it the bore should be mesured properly no matter what, especially if new pistons, rings, and/or rods are being installed.
But no matter what this test is still used and usefull for average Joe in his garage trying to do minor prelim testing.
P.S. I LOVE CAKE!!!!
I also never stated that Honda would give you the min and max specs for ring gap, where as Ford, Cummins, Caterpillar and others do. I was simply stating that is usefull as a preliminary check, and also a good place to start if you do not have the proper tool on hand which 90% of the world does not have a bore guage lying around, but is more likely to have a feeler guage laying around.
I will be the first to say it the bore should be mesured properly no matter what, especially if new pistons, rings, and/or rods are being installed.
But no matter what this test is still used and usefull for average Joe in his garage trying to do minor prelim testing.
P.S. I LOVE CAKE!!!!
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