Modifications - Performance Discuss aftermarket and DIY performance modifications

CBR Stick Coils

Old 06-03-2010, 01:09 PM
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CBR Stick Coils

This is going to sound ridiculous... But I actually gained ~2 bhp from it...

I was expecting it to start easier, and it does... Much easier...

Now before you go buy them on eBay, a small disclaimer here... My engine is modified slightly and made at the last attempt on a dyno 116.5 bhp...

Today I put them in and it made 117... After some fiddling with the FC and needles it made 118... With better AF in some points... Not much but enough so that I suspected the stock coils might not have been performing at peak power...

So I stuck the old ones back in there and ran it again... This was fairly easy as I made the connectors/wiring so I can just swap them and I hadn't even removed the old coils from the frame at that point... And as suspected it managed 116 this time, the difference most likely my small adjustments and or differences since the last day... And it's repeatable... I can swap those coils over the whole day and it still shows 2 bhp more with stick coils... I did it 2 more just because I couldn't believe it...

So no, I don't belive you will all gain magically 2 bhp with stick coils... But if your old stock coils are a bit tired like my 13 year old ones was, it might make more of a difference than you might think... I'm fairly sure a pair of good replacement stock one's would be just as good...
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Old 06-03-2010, 01:20 PM
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Indeed old-worn coils could provide some unintended timing retardation plus a sub optimal spark..

How hard was the conversion to stick coils?
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Old 06-03-2010, 01:20 PM
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Interesting... I put in my stick coils at teh same time as I did the BMC filter sawp and can honestly say the bike runs soooooooooooooooo nice now.

Thanks for sharing the info Markus

Oh, and by the way, you lost 0.8 lb in weight too, lol (I weighed everything on a small digital scale)....
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Old 06-03-2010, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by lazn View Post
Indeed old-worn coils could provide some unintended timing retardation plus a sub optimal spark..

How hard was the conversion to stick coils?
Yep, that would be my guess too, didn't bother measuring the spark though... I'm lazy...

You get the coils and a coil harness... Then you clip the wires and splice on the connectors that fit the VTR's main harness... You could just cut them from the old coils if you aren't planning to go back to stock...

I'd say it takes 5-10 minutes or so... Getting it tucked in nice in there once you are at that point is a bitch and a half tough... Takes longer than making the harness...Atleast it did for me...
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Old 06-03-2010, 01:33 PM
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Of course you guys come up with all this info right after I finally broke down and replaced my coils..... and yes I could feel a slight difference.

My old coils still "tested" fine and I had no operational issues, it's just I couldn't justify running 13yr old plug wires and as there is no easy way to just change the wires..... I guess there is always next time......
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Old 06-03-2010, 10:00 PM
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Coil Testing

The manual on Pages 17-4 & -5 only offers testing primary peak voltage using the (Honda? USA Only) "Peak Voltage Tester (USA only?) or the Honda peak voltage adapter 07HGJ-0020100 with a commercially available 10M / DCV impedance minimum multimeter. I have a couple multimeter (have to check their impedance) but not a Peak Voltage Tester or the adapter. peak voltage should be greater than 100 V.

The manual does not however provide primary and secondary coil resistance in Ohms. Normally, primary resistance should be between .4 ~ 2 ohms and secondary anywhere from 6,000 to 15,000 ohms to as much as 30,000 ohms.

I did find this thread

https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...testing&page=2

but it did not really help other than to clarify (if I understand correctly) "But think of this system as having two coils. The converter is the first coil, which has 12v at all times and the ground is switched by the icm. As you know, the reason we went to groundside control of circtuits with the computer was to avoid harmful voltage spikes going back into the fragile computers. And this IS the case with our bikes. The converter is a coilpack, and the icm controls it. The so when the icm grounds the converter, the coil inside the converter saturates, and when the ground is broken the converter sends a spike of 100v out.

Now the other coil is the one on the side of the bike. Because the ICM is controlling the ground of the converter, we don't have to worry about voltage spikes hurting it, and therefore it doesn't matter which side of the coil is controlled. So the converter briefly sends out 100v to the coil, which saturates the windings, and then the positive is broken, creating a much higher secondary voltage. This way the coil only has to step up a 100v charge rather than 12v. I'm not sure if this is to make life easier on the coil, or so that it can step it up much higher, but thats how it is.

If you see battery voltage at the coil when the bike is not running, I would have to say something is not right... you should have ground at all times and no voltage with the key on and the bike not running."

Both my spare coils read about .45 ohms primary and 20,000+ secondary. I have not checked the coils on the bike but last it ran it ran pretty well.

Anyone know where I can borrow or buy an equivalent of the Honda peak voltage adapter 07HGJ-0020100 with a commercially available 10M / DCV impedance minimum multimeter? Also, does anyone have any idea what the specific resistance should be?

The point of this is whether to try the stick coil mod or be happy it runs OK. No links have been offered where to buy what (on fleabay)

I'd like to check actual secondary voltage output for example per the attached diagram.
Attached Thumbnails CBR Stick Coils-coil-test-diag.jpg  

Last edited by skokievtr; 06-03-2010 at 10:38 PM.
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Old 06-04-2010, 01:11 AM
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Well... I have a peak voltage tester... I was just to lazy... I measured resistance and it was not to my liking at ~1.5 ohms primary on one and ~2.1 on the other ie not at all balanced... As you said, no specs in the manual, but from what I know of coils from other vehicles it along with my other results confirmed to me that my coils was old and tired...

The primary resistance is fine at .45 on yours... I think anything below 1 is fine as long as they are in balance... Dunno about specific numbers on secondary resistance though...
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Old 06-04-2010, 03:13 AM
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Dynatek coils are a popular replacement for the stock VT500FT Ascot coils. The 2.2 Ohm model is the correct replacement coil for the Ascot, (click on "Buy Product" tab to see different the differrent models). The general consensus is that they are no better than the stock coils, but just as good and cheaper.

http://www.dynaonline.com/skins/prod...rtbikes/coils/
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Old 06-04-2010, 05:16 PM
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Why not just do the stick coil mod and do away with the high tension lead. There's a reason virtually every new high perf engine uses them......
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Old 06-04-2010, 05:28 PM
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Total cost of stick coils... $108 to my door for four of them... So $54 once I sold the remaining pair... Which took me all of 5 minutes...

That's a third of the cost of the "cheaper" replacements... And while I'm not going to claim they are better until I can prove it, they most certainly are as good as a pair of new OEM or Dynatek coils...

To me the math on that is simple... But I flunked basic math twice... Surprisingly I aced non-linear algebra and the ******* imaginary equations... Even though I still refuse to acknowledge their existance...
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Old 06-04-2010, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
Total cost of stick coils... $108 to my door for four of them... So $54 once I sold the remaining pair... Which took me all of 5 minutes...

That's a third of the cost of the "cheaper" replacements... And while I'm not going to claim they are better until I can prove it, they most certainly are as good as a pair of new OEM or Dynatek coils...

To me the math on that is simple... But I flunked basic math twice... Surprisingly I aced non-linear algebra and the ******* imaginary equations... Even though I still refuse to acknowledge their existance...
Where can I get them here (web link) and why did you need to buy 4? If someone else wants to join me in buying 4 if that is what is required, I'd consider it. I'm sure my coils are tired after 11 years and 60k+ miles and though I already have a spare used pair, and they check out, I like the idea of it.
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Old 06-04-2010, 06:03 PM
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Skokie,

The harness has 4 because of the bike it comes off of. Buy the whole set on ebay, then split and sell the remainders.

If I had the money, I'd split with you, but for now, it's food and gas.

Harness $18.95
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/06-07...Q5fAccessories

Coils $20.95
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/06-07...Q5fAccessories

The whole search:
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trk...All-Categories

Last edited by Erik S.; 06-04-2010 at 06:14 PM.
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Old 06-05-2010, 04:51 AM
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Actually pretty close, but not completely correct Eric... The CBR1000RR coils will fit, but they are longer and will be a PITA to get in there... And they will probably require you to seal a gap with some O-ring or electricians tape...

The CBR 600RR coils are the same electricly but a bit shorter and a nicer fit... Less work and no need to seal anything...
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Old 06-05-2010, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
Actually pretty close, but not completely correct Eric... The CBR1000RR coils will fit, but they are longer and will be a PITA to get in there... And they will probably require you to seal a gap with some O-ring or electricians tape...

The CBR 600RR coils are the same electricly but a bit shorter and a nicer fit... Less work and no need to seal anything...
Tweety,

Do you have the link for the 600 coils and harness if also required?

Eric, I KNOW what you mean about having just enough money for food and gas, AND a lot more necessities!

I was planning on going this route hopefully in a few weeks when I'm more flush.
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Old 06-05-2010, 05:36 AM
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Here's a link... Yes, you need both coils and harness, to get the plugs...

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=hon...4.l1581&_pgn=2
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Old 06-05-2010, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
Actually pretty close, but not completely correct Eric... The CBR1000RR coils will fit, but they are longer and will be a PITA to get in there... And they will probably require you to seal a gap with some O-ring or electricians tape...

The CBR 600RR coils are the same electricly but a bit shorter and a nicer fit... Less work and no need to seal anything...
Oops, should've looked back to the original thread, I thought I remembered them being 1000s.

I'll look up some 600s later.
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Old 06-05-2010, 05:42 AM
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It looks like the coils are built into the spark plg caps. Is this correct? JB
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Old 06-05-2010, 05:52 AM
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Correct... You need to have sparkplugs with screw on tops...
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Old 06-05-2010, 06:43 AM
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Just one questions, have you ridden it in rain? I know that I have had friends with this issue on front cylinders when the rain is heavy or the drain in the head is not clear. I just want to make sure we are prepared for this as the original setup has a seal directing fluids away.
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Old 06-05-2010, 07:27 AM
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I'm in Sweden... Of course I have ridden it in rain... My first testride started at 24C blazing sun and ended with me wringing water from my underwear... Ie fairly normal... Haven't had had them long enough for more than one ride in rain though...
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Old 06-05-2010, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
Here's a link... Yes, you need both coils and harness, to get the plugs... ]
This is what I found for $50
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/IGNIT...Q5fAccessories
Should I jump on them for the price?

(http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/IGNIT...Q5fAccessories)

Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
Correct... You need to have spark plugs with screw on tops...
When you mean the above, the VTR OE plugs can be used but may need the aluminum internally threaded adapters or do the OE plugs just insert without them?

From what I can see, I can cut the wires off my spare OE coils (green & black/yellow) and splice them to the cut off CBR coils that MAY have the same color wires, or plug n play? In other words are the two (2) CBR color wires the same, or if not do you have the cross-match colors?

It also appears from the photo of the CBR coils that I need to cut out two hi-temp neoprene rubber (say 0.60" thick), punch the proper size hole to the OD of the coils, flange the rubber and zip-tie it to the coils just where they extend out even with the cylinder head covers to serve as rain covers. No?

Last edited by skokievtr; 06-05-2010 at 09:38 AM.
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Old 06-05-2010, 10:02 AM
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Tweety - any chance of some photos? Looks like a few of us are interested in this mod. Thanks. JB
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Old 06-05-2010, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by skokievtr View Post
This is what I found for $50
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/IGNIT...Q5fAccessories
Should I jump on them for the price?

(http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/IGNIT...Q5fAccessories)



When you mean the above, the VTR OE plugs can be used but may need the aluminum internally threaded adapters or do the OE plugs just insert without them?

From what I can see, I can cut the wires off my spare OE coils (green & black/yellow) and splice them to the cut off CBR coils that MAY have the same color wires, or plug n play? In other words are the two (2) CBR color wires the same, or if not do you have the cross-match colors?

It also appears from the photo of the CBR coils that I need to cut out two hi-temp neoprene rubber (say 0.60" thick), punch the proper size hole to the OD of the coils, flange the rubber and zip-tie it to the coils just where they extend out even with the cylinder head covers to serve as rain covers. No?
Any price at or below $50 is decent... Usually less shipping if you get them as a set...

The plugs need to have the threaded part at the top, threads into the CBR stick coil... Most have a thread and then a **** threaded on, on some the **** is permanent, no thread... For obvious reasons avoid those... I used NGK's... This was mostly a heads up to check the one's in there if you are interested in re-using them or check the one's you are buying to make sure the **** isn't permanent...

For matching wires... Pretty easy, on the VTR wiring ground is green... On the CBR wiring it's easy to find ground, since the plug has five wires, one is a common ground going to all coils (I think it was black/white?), the others are individual... Look at it and figure out which is which and then connect ground to ground and signal to signal for each respective coil...

For rain protection I used a rubber grommet, used mainly for sealing around wiring going through chassie holes, dunno if it has a special name... It fit snugly around the coils and needed a bit of coaxing to go into the hole...

Well, since I really cant figure out how to photograph it in place without disassembling half the bike (Which I have done a couple of times the last days, so I'm kind of done with) all it looks like is two of the coils in the eBay auctions with a VTR connector on them and a rubber ring... Not too exiting I'm afraid... But If you want I'll pull one out tomorrow and snap a pic of it...
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Old 06-05-2010, 09:27 PM
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Would F4I coils work? Just asking because i already have a set.
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Old 06-08-2010, 01:25 PM
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tweety, see my questions in red

Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
Any price at or below $50 is decent... Usually less shipping if you get them as a set...

The plugs need to have the threaded part at the top, threads into the CBR stick coil... Most have a thread and then a **** threaded on, on some the **** is permanent, no thread... For obvious reasons avoid those... I used NGK's... This was mostly a heads up to check the one's in there if you are interested in re-using them or check the one's you are buying to make sure the **** isn't permanent...

As I said before, the VTR OEM spark plugs DO have a threaded end, so I presume one installs the spark plug and threads the coil onto the spark plug and then snaps the wire connector into the coil

For matching wires... Pretty easy, on the VTR wiring ground is green... On the CBR wiring it's easy to find ground, since the plug has five wires, one is a common ground going to all coils (I think it was black/white?), the others are individual... Look at it and figure out which is which and then connect ground to ground and signal to signal for each respective coil...

As I also said, I know green is ground and would splice the VTR OEM coil wires to the stick coils so they "plug n play"

For rain protection I used a rubber grommet, used mainly for sealing around wiring going through chassie holes, dunno if it has a special name... It fit snugly around the coils and needed a bit of coaxing to go into the hole...

What I think your saying is the OD of the coil is such that a simple O=ring will seal the annular space between the coil and ID of the cylinder head cover. personally I'd use an O-ring AND a rain flab as I described previously. as I'm a belt and suspenders type of guy.

Well, since I really cant figure out how to photograph it in place without disassembling half the bike (Which I have done a couple of times the last days, so I'm kind of done with) all it looks like is two of the coils in the eBay auctions with a VTR connector on them and a rubber ring... Not too exiting I'm afraid... But If you want I'll pull one out tomorrow and snap a pic of it...
Not necessary for me
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Old 06-18-2010, 02:02 PM
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Doh... Sorry I spaced this a bit...

Threaded end... Correct...

As for the wiring, yeah, I just cut the connector of the VTR coils and used it on the CBR coils... green to black/white... and the other just doeasn't matter...

As for the sealing... No, a normal O ring isn't enough... What I used is a rubber grommet used to protect cables going through a metal sheet... Like a large o ring with an outside groove for the metal... I found one in the right size and convinced it to go on there... Then I used a rubber glue to seal between the coils plastic/rubber finish and the rubber grommet... That means there are now two flaps in the perimeter of the hole and about 10 mm of glued rubber against the coil... That's enough of a seal for me...
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Old 06-18-2010, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by skokievtr View Post
This is what I found for $50
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/IGNIT...Q5fAccessories
Should I jump on them for the price?
I would...

Just as a current today type update.. $54 dollars delivered to my door for a brand new old stock 2007 harness, and 4 2007 coils that look new, reported to have come from a bike with only 9544 miles at it's demise.

Once I get done with my MOD, I'll have a spare set up, one up for sale.. You cant beat the cost.

Prices have come down on these parts
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Old 06-19-2010, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by E.Marquez View Post
I would...

Just as a current today type update.. $54 dollars delivered to my door for a brand new old stock 2007 harness, and 4 2007 coils that look new, reported to have come from a bike with only 9544 miles at it's demise.

Once I get done with my MOD, I'll have a spare set up, one up for sale.. You cant beat the cost.

Prices have come down on these parts
Not really... The $108 I mentioned was at least half shipping to Sweden...
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Old 06-24-2010, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by 8541Hawk View Post

My old coils still "tested" fine and I had no operational issues, it's just I couldn't justify running 13yr old plug wires and as there is no easy way to just change the wires.....

Actually, the 7mm spark plug wires screw onto pointy threaded studs in both the ignition coils and the plug ends. So you could swap just the plug wires very easily.

As long as you use full metal wires (as are the OEM items) and not the carbon core radio-friendly type, you will be good to go. You could prolly round up some sexy color other than basic black!

Just for grins, I checked the original wires for resistance... 0.001 ohms for both, so I don't think anyone has to worry about degraded voltage carrying capacity.

I just finished a stick coil install and used the sheathing from the original plug wires to run the newly spliced harnesses through.


Rex
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Old 07-11-2010, 08:52 PM
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I'm really interested in doing this MOD but I really would like to see some pics posted as to how they look and how the wires were connected. If someone who has done this MOD and who does have some pics could you post them with a nice li'l write up....please and thank you
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