Modifications - Performance Discuss aftermarket and DIY performance modifications

Brembo Calipers vs RC51s

Old 12-12-2009, 11:29 AM
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Brembo Calipers vs RC51s

It would probably be a cry for attention to run these plates:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...K%3AMEWAX%3AIT

And 916 calipers in place of the RC51s, right? Anyone have experience running a Ducati superbike side-by-side against a SH w/ the upgrade?

It;s so easy to debate this stuff when you're broke, isn't it?

R.
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Old 12-12-2009, 11:51 AM
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That's sweet. Now you just have to shell out another 96586596588325 dollars for the brembos. Lol
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Old 12-12-2009, 12:02 PM
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Well if you are running a RC51 front end you could always spring for this neat little kit:
Brembo Calipers vs RC51s-brem_4p_upgrade.jpg
These Brembo upgrade brake kits have been designed to give you similar braking performance to the brakes fitted to the majority of GP and World Superbikes. Many components come directly from the track. The discs are up to 320mm in diameter and manufactured from stainless steel with a high carbon content to increase friction. The CNC machined carriers are a work of art, machined from alloy billet and hard anodized. Kits include: 4 piston 4 pad calipers w/pads, front SS brake lines, high performance rotors, and front master cylinder.

$1245 from EMA
BREMBO Performance brake kits - $1245.00
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Old 12-12-2009, 12:32 PM
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But consider the bragging rights! I bet almost no one here is running Brembos!
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Old 12-12-2009, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Crashrat View Post
But consider the bragging rights! I bet almost no one here is running Brembos!
Not worth it on our bike.
Maybe on a rc51, but not ours.
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Old 12-12-2009, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Just_Nick View Post
Not worth it on our bike.
Maybe on a rc51, but not ours.
Ok I'll bite...... Why not? How could better brakes not be a good thing??
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Old 12-12-2009, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by 8541Hawk View Post
Ok I'll bite...... Why not? How could better brakes not be a good thing??
Because the stock brakes are damn powerful as it is, it's the feeling that makes it seem otherwise.
With the rc51 calipers it should be even more powerful.
Add this to the fact that our bikes aren't race bikes, they can be raced though, but you really don't need carbon rotors and brembo calipers.
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Old 12-12-2009, 01:39 PM
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I think irl there's probably little difference between the RC51s and the Brembos that appear on 916s, say. For me it comes down to cost and added weighs of the brackets. Strangely enough, it looks like 916 take offs go fairly cheaply on Ebay compared to RC51s...

The stock calipers have been debated here elsewhere, so I won't rehash. Personally I feel that OEM are good, but not great. With so many bolt-on calipers that are better, it's really a matter of looks anyhow. For pose value, are 6p GSXR calipers more bling than RC51 ones or Brembos? I don't know.

I always go for the best brakes I can afford and get to work, considering my utter lack of mechanical skills.
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Old 12-12-2009, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Just_Nick View Post
Because the stock brakes are damn powerful as it is, it's the feeling that makes it seem otherwise.
Sorry to disagree but the stock set up sucks big time. There is a reason that upgrading the brakes is a very common mod.

Originally Posted by Just_Nick View Post
With the rc51 calipers it should be even more powerful.
Yes the RC calipers work very well as long as you upgrade the master cylinder.


Originally Posted by Just_Nick View Post
Add this to the fact that our bikes aren't race bikes, they can be raced though, but you really don't need carbon rotors and brembo calipers.
You lost me here. Who said anything about a "race bike"? You are correct in the statement that a SH is not a race bike, hell it's not even all that good of a track day bike but good brakes are a benefit to any bike. Also where the hell did carbon rotors come from?

Last edited by 8541Hawk; 12-13-2009 at 07:40 PM.
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Old 12-12-2009, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by 8541Hawk View Post
Sorry to disagree but the stock set up sucks big time. There is a reason that upgrading the brakes is a very common mod.



Yes the RC calipers work very well as long as you upgrade the master cylinder.


Add this to the fact that our bikes aren't race bikes, they can be raced though, but you really don't need carbon rotors and brembo calipers.
The stock Superhawk stops in 112 feet from 60-0. That's quicker than most other sport bikes out there. Only thing that sucks about them is the lever travel required.
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Old 12-12-2009, 04:04 PM
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Quoting a magazine and living with them in the real world is a much different thing.
How many miles have you put on the bike with the stock brakes?? You had the bike for what, 5 months? I have put at least 45-50k on the bike with the stock calipers before I switched them and I can tell you they suck.
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Old 12-12-2009, 04:14 PM
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you always think new stuff is a much bigger improvement than it is tho, just cos your stoked about it being new and you want to think that you spent a load of cash on something that is awesome and worth it


hell, a change could even be worse and just cos it feels different your mind thinks its better but sometimes it actually isnt!!!!

i want to upgrade my calipers though. im sure it will make an improvement, just not as vast an improvement as some people think.
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Old 12-12-2009, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Forde View Post
you always think new stuff is a much bigger improvement than it is tho, just cos your stoked about it being new and you want to think that you spent a load of cash on something that is awesome and worth it


hell, a change could even be worse and just cos it feels different your mind thinks its better but sometimes it actually isnt!!!!

i want to upgrade my calipers though. im sure it will make an improvement, just not as vast an improvement as some people think.
Well here is the problem, as I see it. Both you and Nick are going by assumptions, as neither of you have done any brake upgrades.

I have run the upgraded set up for around 35k (yes my bike is rolling up on 80k) and while you are correct that some changes might degrade performance, upgrading the brakes does not fall into this category.

So you guys can assume all you want. I have years of experience with this change and there is a major difference to be had with this mod.

As for the spending a load of cash.... my whole set up (RC calipers and master cyl) ran a whole $70 so that argument has little to do with it.
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Old 12-12-2009, 04:27 PM
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well, I can tell you the set-up I am running now is light years ahead of the stock set-up (and second only to a 1098 Duc from the bikes I have tried in terms of power but with easier modulation). Whether anyone chooses to question that is their business but with over 125,000 km on the bike, I think I have a pretty good idea....

Last edited by mikstr; 12-12-2009 at 04:30 PM.
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Old 12-12-2009, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by mikstr View Post
well, I can tell you the set-up I am running now is light years ahead of the stock set-up (and second only to a 1098 Duc from the bikes I have tried in terms of power but with easier modulation). Whether anyone chooses to question that is their business but with over 125,000 km on the bike, I think I have a pretty good idea....
Had to do a quick miles to Kilometers conversion..... I better start riding more as you're catching up..... 80k miles is 128,000 kilometers.
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Old 12-12-2009, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by 8541Hawk View Post
Had to do a quick miles to Kilometers conversion..... I better start riding more as you're catching up..... 80k miles is 128,000 kilometers.
well, you have until April or so to pull ahead as mine is in storage for winter.... MInd you caffeinracer had us both beat a few years back with obver 100K miles....
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Old 12-12-2009, 05:02 PM
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I owned a rc 51 before I bought this Superhawk. I also rode it on the track quite a bit. The brakes on the rc51 in stock form are superior to the vtr brakes in every way. I have not rode the vtr on the track but I can tell by riding it on the road they will fade quickly on the track. I also have a f4 that I used to race but just use it for track days now. I upgraded the brakes with steel brakelines and race brake pads. It was a big improvement. I never had a problem with the f4 brakes on the track. I will try this with the vtr. I already have the steel brakelines just need the pads and to install them. I figure it can only improve them.
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Old 12-12-2009, 05:25 PM
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The stock VTR calipers can be made to work well with good pads, but those choices are more limited than the choices for other calipers. Another reason for going with 929, 954, F4, F4i, 600RR, RC51 calipers is that current top notch brake pads like the Vesrah RJL can be gotten for them. Properly set up with good brake pads, the VTR will stop like it should have from the factory.
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Old 12-12-2009, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by 8541Hawk View Post
Well here is the problem, as I see it. Both you and Nick are going by assumptions, as neither of you have done any brake upgrades.

I have run the upgraded set up for around 35k (yes my bike is rolling up on 80k) and while you are correct that some changes might degrade performance, upgrading the brakes does not fall into this category.

So you guys can assume all you want. I have years of experience with this change and there is a major difference to be had with this mod.

As for the spending a load of cash.... my whole set up (RC calipers and master cyl) ran a whole $70 so that argument has little to do with it.
I'm running 954/RC51 calipers, just an FYI Mike.
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Old 12-13-2009, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Just_Nick View Post
The stock Superhawk stops in 112 feet from 60-0. That's quicker than most other sport bikes out there. Only thing that sucks about them is the lever travel required.
thats once. just like my old fox body mustang, it would stop great, once, after that good luck. having ridden a few ss bikes i can tell you that they have a much better feel and stop alot better than the vtr brakes ever did.
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Old 12-13-2009, 07:33 AM
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Thanks for the direct feedback, Mikstr. 'guess I'll stick with the RC51 upgrade.
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Old 12-13-2009, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by 8541Hawk View Post
Well here is the problem, as I see it. Both you and Nick are going by assumptions, as neither of you have done any brake upgrades.

I have run the upgraded set up for around 35k (yes my bike is rolling up on 80k) and while you are correct that some changes might degrade performance, upgrading the brakes does not fall into this category.

So you guys can assume all you want. I have years of experience with this change and there is a major difference to be had with this mod.

As for the spending a load of cash.... my whole set up (RC calipers and master cyl) ran a whole $70 so that argument has little to do with it.
just to reply to all your points

1st - who said i was assuming? you are the one assuming, that we are assuming. just cos i havent upgraded my superhawks brakes (YET THAT IS BECAUSE IF YOU ACTUALLY READ MY POST I SAID IT WAS A GOOD MOD DONE RIGHT, JUST THAT SOMETIMES THE DIFFERENCE ISNT AS BIG AS PEOPLE LIKE YOU THINK) doesnt mean i havent in some way on nearly every other bike and car ive had....

2nd - obviously changing brakes does not degrade performance if you do it properly, but it can. putting the wrong calipers with the wrong master cylinder for example. or some calipers that you would think are better off a different bike but actually have smaller combined piston size or something.

3rd - again, you are the one who is assuming that we know nothing and you know everything

4th - $70 is enough cash to want a big difference, plus the time and effort you spend fitting it. also anything you do yourself you do have a big desire for it to be a good thing. a lot of it has to do with feel of the brakes too.

All im saying is, i bet if you did a controlled test on your bike before and after the change, it would be an improvement but maybe not as vast an improvement as you like to think.
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Old 12-13-2009, 09:35 AM
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what it comes down to is this. you can only stop as hard as traction will permit. either youre locking up the front tire or your going *** over tea kettle. but its achieving that point. do you really want a soft lever that you have to depress more than halfway to make the bike stop hard? and a brake setup that even when depressed hard will have a hard time lifting the tail? sure if youre new and havent developed the hand control yet. but id personally prefer to have a slightly stiffer lever, something that doesnt need to be pulled in half way to make me stop. just means i have to be a bit more careful. also fade comes into play. example, gsxr 750 4 pots vs the 1000 6 pots. really a personal preference on these. but from what im seeing guys who race prefer the 4 pots over the 6's. my understanding is that even if it has only 4 pistons it still holds more fluid and fades less. so guys seem to upgrade to the 4 pots. it really isnt about how well the bike can stop once but how well it can stop multiple times continuously
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:33 AM
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I think that's it exactly, Uchi. I don't feel like the stock calipers have much feel or feedback to them. I was surprised when I tested a F3 around the time I got the SH and found the old 2p brakes a bit better. This is just personal feeling, of course, and the CBR does weigh about 40lbs less than the VTR. My old M2 60 PM caliper stopped that bike much better than these OEM calipers on the SH...

I was running a GSXR 6p on my old Trident 900. (Same deal as the RC51 calipers on the VTR -- more or less a bolt-on.) They worked fine except in the wet, when they'd fade pretty badly. The six shooters were also quite a lot heavier than the four-piston ones.

Weird that modern Triumphs always get high marks for their 4p calipers, but I think they're just re-badged Tokicos like the Kwaks and GSXRs run.
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:35 AM
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I think the Triumphs run Nissins (at least that is who makes the MC on a newer Speed TRiple)
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:50 AM
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Jesus Tap Dancing Christ you guys are damn funny..... but here you go....

Originally Posted by Just_Nick View Post
I'm running 954/RC51 calipers, just an FYI Mike.
So Nick did the bike come with upgraded calipers or did you change them?
The reason I ask is, If the bike came with them, how do you know how well the stock set up works? If you did change them, why? If the stock set up is so good why did you waste your money on them?

Originally Posted by Forde View Post
just to reply to all your points

1st - who said i was assuming? you are the one assuming, that we are assuming. just cos i havent upgraded my superhawks brakes (YET THAT IS BECAUSE IF YOU ACTUALLY READ MY POST I SAID IT WAS A GOOD MOD DONE RIGHT, JUST THAT SOMETIMES THE DIFFERENCE ISNT AS BIG AS PEOPLE LIKE YOU THINK) doesnt mean i havent in some way on nearly every other bike and car ive had....
Here is what you said:

"i want to upgrade my calipers though. im sure it will make an improvement, just not as vast an improvement as some people think."

So you are saying something you haven't done isn't going to return much of a benefit for the cost or effort. Isn't that assuming on your part?? Sure you have done other bikes and cars but not the set up we are talking about so IMHO you are trying to argue something that you have no facts to back up.

Originally Posted by Forde View Post
2nd - obviously changing brakes does not degrade performance if you do it properly, but it can. putting the wrong calipers with the wrong master cylinder for example. or some calipers that you would think are better off a different bike but actually have smaller combined piston size or something.
And your point is???


Originally Posted by Forde View Post
3rd - again, you are the one who is assuming that we know nothing and you know everything
Once again....Fail
I never said you guys know nothing, thanks for trying to put words in my mouth. I also never said I know everything. What I did say was I have done some extensive testing (and thanks for asking what I have done to qualify this as a major upgrade) and the data I have collected proves that the improvement is well worth the cost and effort.

Originally Posted by Forde View Post
4th - $70 is enough cash to want a big difference, plus the time and effort you spend fitting it. also anything you do yourself you do have a big desire for it to be a good thing. a lot of it has to do with feel of the brakes too.
Hell a set of front brake pads will set you back more than the complete brake system I picked up, so I don't think the cost was much at all. If I had not been able to prove the increase in brake performance, I would have pulled them and resold them ASAP.

Originally Posted by Forde View Post
All im saying is, i bet if you did a controlled test on your bike before and after the change, it would be an improvement but maybe not as vast an improvement as you like to think.
Well let me ask you this?? You say " i bet" which to me means you assume the outcome but don't really know as you have no real world data to back it up. Is that correct or did I miss something?

I guess I'm with Mikstr on this. I have done many miles and a lot of testing on this bike. If you chose to question or berate someone who is trying to pass on a bit knowledge relating to "this" bike, so be it.

Have a nice day.
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:52 AM
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Re: mikstr: Yep, I think you're right. So... I wonder if a Daytona 955i caliper would bolt on to the SH, too...?

Last edited by Crashrat; 12-13-2009 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 12-13-2009, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Crashrat View Post
I think that's it exactly, Uchi. I don't feel like the stock calipers have much feel or feedback to them. I was surprised when I tested a F3 around the time I got the SH and found the old 2p brakes a bit better. This is just personal feeling, of course, and the CBR does weigh about 40lbs less than the VTR. My old M2 60 PM caliper stopped that bike much better than these OEM calipers on the SH...
The reason for this isn't found in the calipers... It's the wimpy master cylinder that is the culprit making you use a lot of lever travel and making it either locked front or nothing... (feeling wise)

Upgrade the master cylinder alone and you will get a lot more feel from the stock calipers...

I can say without guessing, because I did the whole evolution thing... I upgraded with better pads, SS lines on the stock system... Then a larger M/C and stock calipers, then larger calipers and M/C... And finally a whole front end swap... And it got progressively better in both feel and performance...

With the setup I have now, it's very easy to lock the front... But you will never ever do it unless on purpose (or if you panic) as it's also extremely easy to modulate the brakes...
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Old 12-13-2009, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by 8541Hawk View Post
Jesus Tap Dancing Christ you guys are damn funny..... but here you go....



So Nick did the bike come with upgraded calipers or did you change them?
The reason I ask is, If the bike came with them, how do you know how well the stock set up works? If you did change them, why? If the stock set up is so good why did you waste your money on them?



Here is what you said:

"i want to upgrade my calipers though. im sure it will make an improvement, just not as vast an improvement as some people think."

So you are saying something you haven't done isn't going to return much of a benefit for the cost or effort. Isn't that assuming on your part?? Sure you have done other bikes and cars but not the set up we are talking about so IMHO you are trying to argue something that you have no facts to back up.



And your point is???




Once again....Fail
I never said you guys know nothing, thanks for trying to put words in my mouth. I also never said I know everything. What I did say was I have done some extensive testing (and thanks for asking what I have done to qualify this as a major upgrade) and the data I have collected proves that the improvement is well worth the cost and effort.



Hell a set of front brake pads will set you back more than the complete brake system I picked up, so I don't think the cost was much at all. If I had not been able to prove the increase in brake performance, I would have pulled them and resold them ASAP.



Well let me ask you this?? You say " i bet" which to me means you assume the outcome but don't really know as you have no real world data to back it up. Is that correct or did I miss something?

I guess I'm with Mikstr on this. I have done many miles and a lot of testing on this bike. If you chose to question or berate someone who is trying to pass on a bit knowledge relating to "this" bike, so be it.

Have a nice day.
Came with stock, upgraded because the Sumohawk project needs them and I put them on for the hell of it. My brakes are now spongier, probably my bleeding and the MC is too small, but I didn't notice too much difference.
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Old 12-13-2009, 07:27 PM
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just to add some more, anyone whos ever driven a car with upgraded brakes knows what stock vs upgraded feels like. ive driven cars with big brembos on them and they stick you to the dash when you hit the brakes. but as mentioned above its the complete system that needs upgrading in order to take full advantage
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