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Ignition Advance

Old 01-22-2014, 07:24 PM
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Question Ignition Advance

I have searched and only found a couple guys that mention the "early" VTR's benefit from the +4 Ignition Advance. And they also go on to say that, the "later" years already have it.

That's pretty much all the information you can find in a search here. I just want to know if this is indeed correct? Like, all 2000-2005 models have the ignition advanced by 4 degrees, when compared to the 1998 & 1999 models.

I was hoping to have a thread for others that search for this topic.

In a recent thread, one of our members mentioned having his 2005 with an "ignition advancer". Will the VTR's engine benifit from having the timing advanced even further on the 2000-2005 model?

Found some info on the vtr1000.org site.
The +4 ignition advance has two different part numbers. Acording to Rodger D., "Although the part number changed it is the same part. it changed due to a change in the material used and the outside supplier to Honda"

Last edited by CruxGNZ; 01-23-2014 at 09:48 AM. Reason: Fixin' a couple words & adding stuff
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Old 01-24-2014, 01:52 AM
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I have a 2005 with motion pro 4 degree advancer.

In my opinion it is different to the standard one I took out. I did compare them and the splines seem different.


The bike seemed smoother and responded to the throttle better, but the noise of the engine changed.


It was noisier at first but now I am used to it.


It's been in for about 18 months and all is well!


I believe they are hard to get now. I am on fleabay regularly and have only seen 2 Degree ones lately and they are scarce as well.
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Old 01-24-2014, 07:29 AM
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Interesting on two fronts.

In the US, Motion Pro is a Motorcycle tool controls company and does not make ignition advances for any bike that I know of>>

Do you have a link?

Secondly ... In the US, it is commonly thought, the later model SH do not benefit from the Factory Pro ignition advancer


Originally Posted by kenmoore View Post
I have a 2005 with motion pro 4 degree advancer.

In my opinion it is different to the standard one I took out. I did compare them and the splines seem different.


The bike seemed smoother and responded to the throttle better, but the noise of the engine changed.


It was noisier at first but now I am used to it.


It's been in for about 18 months and all is well!


I believe they are hard to get now. I am on fleabay regularly and have only seen 2 Degree ones lately and they are scarce as well.
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Old 01-24-2014, 09:42 AM
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If the later year VTR's have the ignition advanced by 4 degrees, can I swap out the Ignition Control Module in my '98 VTR for the Ignition Control Module from a 2005 VTR? Will the ignition now be advanced by 4 degrees?

Damn. Just found a post by Tweety, "The boxes are the same 97-01 and 02-> but not interchangeable between the two generations, the plugs don't match"

Would've been great if you could just swap one for the other.
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Old 01-24-2014, 01:22 PM
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The advance is mechanical.

It's done by replacing the gear that triggers the pulse generator.


All of this is located on your primary drive at the end of your crank under the right hand side clutch cover.


I compared the splines on the advancer plates and it was different.


I think that the change in splines moves the gear forward and that triggers the pulse generator quicker and that is what gives you the advance.


I wish I had pictures.


I bought mine 18 months ago from E Bay.


Another thing is that I fitted a lightened flywheel , electric water pump, and removed the anti rattle gear from the primary drive as well as the water pump drive gears and chain.


It's all been done in the effort to decrease reciprocal mass and get the motor to spin up quicker.


There seems to be two schools of thought on the advancer for later models, but what have you got to lose except for a few bucks and some time.


Also just remembered it was Factory Pro, not Motion Pro!
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Old 01-24-2014, 01:32 PM
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^

I think what was found though, that the 2001+ models had a different ignition map in which the mechanical advance didn't benefit as much on the 98-00 models. Both came with the same advancer (meaning you could mechanically upgrade all of them with the +4 degrees)... anyway none of this is known from first hand experience by me; just wanted to point that out.
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Old 01-24-2014, 02:29 PM
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Oh sure, I'm aware that the ignition advancer that's sold, or was sold, is mechanical.


I was just kind of thinking out loud. If the '98-'01 VTR's have the same ignition pulse generator rotor as the '02-'05 VTR's, that means the ignition is advanced by the ignition map in the '02-'05 VTR's. Anybody know by how much?
I just thought a person could swap ignition boxes. But, the '02-'05 VTR's have a electronic theft system that is part of the ignition. So, they're pretty different.

I remember someone trying to figure out the ignition map of our VTR's. Not sure if anything came of that. Would be interesting to know!

As a person said, "If your VTR1000F has a fuel gauge, it will not benefit from having the ignition advanced." This is true then?

Last edited by CruxGNZ; 01-24-2014 at 02:49 PM. Reason: Adding stuff
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Old 01-25-2014, 01:54 AM
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I would be interested as well.

My 2005 is a digital bar guage.
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Old 01-25-2014, 01:56 AM
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Should read gauge I think.

Can't blame spell check this time!
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Old 01-25-2014, 01:51 PM
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I put 4 degree advance from Motion pro in my 2003 VTR back in 2004. I did notice some change and also, then engine noise changed as well. I wonder how this ethanol and the advance timing is effecting my engine. hmmmm....
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Old 01-26-2014, 01:07 AM
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We have a choice between 91 with 10 percent ethanol, straight 95 and 98.

Bike runs better on 95 funily enough.
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Old 03-04-2014, 02:51 PM
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Just a thought!

With mechanical advance changed to 4 degree, and ignition module supposedly at 4 degrees does that mean I now have 8 degrees advance?


Silly thought maybe!
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Old 03-04-2014, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by CruxGNZ View Post
Oh sure, I'm aware that the ignition advancer that's sold, or was sold, is mechanical.


I was just kind of thinking out loud. If the '98-'01 VTR's have the same ignition pulse generator rotor as the '02-'05 VTR's, that means the ignition is advanced by the ignition map in the '02-'05 VTR's. Anybody know by how much?
I just thought a person could swap ignition boxes. But, the '02-'05 VTR's have a electronic theft system that is part of the ignition. So, they're pretty different.

I remember someone trying to figure out the ignition map of our VTR's. Not sure if anything came of that. Would be interesting to know!

As a person said, "If your VTR1000F has a fuel gauge, it will not benefit from having the ignition advanced." This is true then?
Just pointing out that the model changes were of 1997 - 2000 initial release / 2001 - Last Model Upgrades if you want to call them that.
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Old 03-04-2014, 04:10 PM
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And to confuse matters in the UK a lot of pre '01 models weren't registered by dealers until after '01 so have later plates. Easily differentiated by fairing and tank decals and engine cover paint.
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Old 03-10-2014, 03:15 AM
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Still no hard evidence that I have found that answers the question " does the later model not benefit from 4 degree advancer."

I know when I fitted mine the engine sounded different, noisier in fact and others report the same.


It runs smooth and there are no flat spots. I use 95Ron fuel and actually get better mileage and overall performance as opposed to 98Ron fuel.


Would like an answer as to wether the advancer helps or not, but I could swear that the bike runs better with it in rather than the standard.




The only reference that I have is that the splines on the 4 are different to the standard, and that is what gives the advance, and also wonder why the engine as others that have fitted is noisier than with the standard advancer.


As I often say, I very confusion!!
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Old 09-11-2014, 03:31 PM
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I still very confusion!!!
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:45 PM
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This will always be guessing game until a Late model and early model bike have the cams degreed, and then run on a dyno capable of tracking timing advance. Until then, guess on...

What if it's not ECU changes, but a difference in mechanical timing other than the timing wheel for the ignition pickup?

As simple as a different index key, or as complicated as an ECU change
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Old 09-11-2014, 10:33 PM
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As I recall the 4 degree only works on 98 and 99 and that changes in the ignition module in later models made it obsolete!
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Old 09-12-2014, 11:15 AM
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This will always be guessing game until a Late model and early model bike have the cams degreed, and then run on a dyno capable of tracking timing advance. Until then, guess on...

What if it's not ECU changes, but a difference in mechanical timing other than the timing wheel for the ignition pickup?

As simple as a different index key, or as complicated as an ECU change
Exactly!!!

personally I don't believe there are any changes with the ignition rotor itself between years. At a guess I would say the changes where made on the map as Honda do advertise the fact that there where some ignition and fuelling changes, though they don't say what exactly. It could be nothing to do with advancing the timing but something else. Ignition change could mean the HISS security system and fuelling could be the larger 48 pilot jet or even slightly different needles....who knows :shrug

Just a thought!

With mechanical advance changed to 4 degree, and ignition module supposedly at 4 degrees does that mean I now have 8 degrees advance?
You could always point a timing light at it to see where things are at. Don't forget your other mods will also have an effect on timing, for example the lightened flywheel will change the speed of the piston travel which in turn effects the position of the piston when the charge gets ignited.

As a person said, "If your VTR1000F has a fuel gauge, it will not benefit from having the ignition advanced." This is true then?
An advancer does not give better fuel economy as such. Better fuel economy is a side effect off advancing or even retarding for that matter in some cases. The cleaner the burn the better the economy, it's all about igniting the charge at a point so when the charge burns and builds more pressure, the piston is just ATDC with the crank ready to accept a downward force without too much resistance. If you get things right then the charge will have reached max peak pressure by this stage and you get an efficient clean burn with very little waste. There's where the better economy comes in. It may be the case that one has higher cylinder pressures, different cams, a hotter running engine or other mods which affects the speed of the burn, so retarding may be a benefit.

www.vtr1000.org • View topic - Ignition Timing Advance or Retard The Why's and How's

Personally I think one would benefit more from degreeing the cams and playing with the valve timing side of things more than the ignition timing side, but that can get expensive if going down the new cams route. Don't get confused with ignition timing and valve timing as they are two totally different things though they are related as in one controls the charge in and out and one lights it.

(:-})
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Old 09-12-2014, 03:44 PM
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FYI... the '99 and '05 rotors are the same part number, 30291-MBB-010. This leads me to believe that the FP rotor would advance the ignition 4 degrees from stock in each situation. The bit map of each would finish this answer. IMHO.
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