pbfiredawg22

What would be a good sprocket conversion to go to if I want better low end power, but don't want to sacrifice too much top end (mabie even get more out of 6th gear)? I have read the posts on the 15/43 conversions, and also the ones about 6th gear being almost useless. What would be a good happy medium? Thanks for your help!

mikstr

16/43 or 15/41 are good compromises (the latter being slightly lower than the former).....

pbfiredawg22

Do you think that the 16/43 would allow me to utilize 6th gear more effectively on the HW or would the 15/41 be better for this?

uchi

i spin about 1000 rpm higher with the 15/43. that being said shes a blast to run and i can come out of corners lower in the rpms and when i snap the throttle she wakes up and takes off. you get used to the rpm increase. i wish i would have regeared and retained my stock 6th gear or even over driven it more to get better milage on those long hiway rides. but really thats why i have a trailer

if your worried drop 1 tooth up front, it shouldnt raise the rpm more than 5 or 600

pbfiredawg22

Thank you for all of your help! I'm going to give the 15/41 a shot and go from there. Thanks again.

8541Hawk

Well I do like 16\43 but won't get into all the reasons once again. I have been thinking about what has been said about 15\43 to try and figure out why it is so popular.

Hearing things like "it moves the power band" it makes me think that what is really being said is that folks like the fact that the motor revs quicker. While that is a good thing, there is a why to have that and run a higher gearing (16\43).

If you really like that punchier feel then lighten the flywheel. You can then run the higher gear and get all the benefits from it and also have the quick revving of the lower gearing.

It is very easy to do and works much better in the long run than gearing so low.

mboe794

I've got 15/43 and a lightened flywheel (amongst other things). My dad also has a bone stock SuperHawk to compare to. It's an absolute night and day difference. Mine feels almost like a MX bike, the way it runs through the gears, when compared back to back with his.

IMO 15/43 is the way to. Unless you mainly cruise the freeways. And if that's the case then I'd say go get a gold wing, not a sport bike.

mboe794

I came up with about 750 or so rpm difference in 6th gear. This is not exact but close as I added a speedo healer during the gear change. RPM to actual speed was slighly skewed prior to the change, now it's dead on.

8541Hawk

Well why is it so good? What advantages do you get from it?

IMHO 15\43 is just too low of a gearing set up for this bike. There are are couple other disadvantages to it also.

First, by running a smaller diameter counter shaft sprocket you increase chain wear.

Second, you make first gear all but unusable for anything but getting the bike rolling.

So while you hear claims of how much punch the bike has with a 15\43 set up, you can have about the same results with 16\43 gearing. The only thing you might need to do is downshift one gear. That and you do have a few other advantages by running 16\43.

First, you do get longer chain life.

Second, when running 16\43 you can still run a stock 102 link chain. What this does is move the rear axle to the front of the adjusters. This shortens the wheel base by approx. 5mm which give you better turn in.

Third, you can actually use first gear. It does take a bit of throttle control as it is a bit touchy. While some if not most of you guys don't ride on stuff tight enough to actually need first, it is quite nice to have if you do need it.

So for these reasons, I believe 15\43 is just too low a gearing for this bike. I have all the punch of that gearing by just using the gearbox a little more but can still cruse @ 5k on the freeway with no issues. Throw in better turn in and longer chain life and to me it really is a no brainer....

So IMHO 16\43 is a much better all around gearing for this bike.

(and yes I just copied this from the other day as I didn't feel like writing it all again)

8541Hawk

or you can go to this thread:
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ad.php?t=23390

and see what has been discussed up to this point and we can go from there.
Also if you think I just ride on the freeway google map Mount Hamilton and follow hwy 130\Mines road from San Jose to Livermore.

This is a pretty tight in places and is where I did my gearing testing at. 16\43 works the best on this road.

RWhisen

I bumped my rear up to a 42 with a Stealth Sprocket and left the front alone. I have a bit more juice coming out of the hole or off of turns. I found it for 89 bux at Indy Superbikes. Didn't have to do anything to the chain other than adjust it.

8541Hawk

I guess I've just been bored lately and talk too damn much but you did hit it right on the head.....

8541Hawk

But if anyone really wants to have this discussion, I would be more than happy to explain why the bike is quicker just about everywhere with 16\43 gearing (there is one small spot in the gearbox where 15\43 would help out but then you loose out everywhere else so it's not worth it IMHO)

osage kid

Those were the days...
When I lived in CA I'd do that ride on a Sunday morning once a month or so on my Yamaha Seca II. Bone stock on that little thing except for better tires; that was one of the few roads where I could actually drag my toes. I could never stop grinning when the "big boys" (e.g. squids with too much money in their pocket when they told the sales guy that they wanted a fast bike) tried to keep up. Better rider + no straightaways + lighter bike = almost no advantage to liter-bike horsepower... I still daydream about it 15 years later.

8541Hawk

So you can imagine how much fun it can be on a well set up SH......
And just to give you a little more to remember it by, or for those who don't know about it here is a quick vid. It's from one of the guys on my local forum. It is a bit of a sedate pace but it does give a good feel for the front side of Mt Ham. and @ 4:20 you see a good example of why I need a usable 1st gear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7a4E...layer_embedded

killer5280

There is no top end penalty paid by going to 15/43. There are lots of reasons for liking different gearing combinations, and each is valid, but going to 15/43 doesn't sacrifice top end speed.

8541Hawk

Umm yes it does, it's simple mathematics. You have a limited number of RPM to work with and if you go a shorter distance for each given RPM you will have less speed.

Now the real thing I've been trying to find out is what is the advantage of running such a low gearing?

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what the reasons are for liking the real low gearing.

So I'll break it down once again.

In 1st I see both set ups having the same acceleration potential. The reason I say this is, that with this bike the acceleration in 1st is limited to how much throttle you can give it before it flips over backwards. With the higher gearing you are able to give it more throttle.

I tend to short shift into 2nd. This would be the only place I can see any advantage to the lower gearing. You can get a touch more punch here but not very much.

Anyplace else the difference between the gearing is between 500-750 RPM or about the same spacing as the gearing in the trans on a SH. What I mean by this is that if you are in say 3rd and you shifted to 4th without changing speed, you would be turning 500 RPM or so slower.

What this means, in the real world, with the higher geared bike, you would just run 1 gear lower in the gear box. So the acceleration in almost all situations is the same.

The two places that are different are:

1) that shift between 1st & 2nd. The trade off there is if you do need to go slow enough for a 1st gear corner throttle control is much easier. If you have run your bike up to 7-8K in first, you know how touchy the throttle can be.

2) On the top end. With 15\43 gearing your in 6th 500 RPM early and the bike with 16\43 will just pull right past you when it hits 6th and has a good 10mph on you at top end.

While absolute top end speed is not really applicable on the street (but why slow the bike down if you don't have to?) where it comes into play in daily life is that you will be turning 500RPM lower at cruising speed saving fuel and wear.

Then add in that the 15\43 set up will wear out faster due to accelerated wear due to the small front sprocket. Also the bike will turn slower, as running 16\43 with a 102 link chain makes the wheel base as short as possible.

With all that, like I've stated a few time, makes me believe that 15\43 gearing is just too low. If I have missed something I really would like to hear someones opinion.

All I have heard is there are lots of reasons for running it or it works really good, hell I even saw an ad on E-Bay say it was the ultimate gearing for this bike. That's fine but could anyone tell me what advantages can be had by running it, as I just don't see it.

Erik S.

Hawk,

I think the wording is what might be throwing off potential believers.

Too Low? This is the potential wrong words. It's not too low. It causes the bike to do everything you've stated without any ill effects.

Can it perform better with 16/43 or maybe 16/44? Perhaps.

I think you have given more than adequate reasons for why the 16/43 should be a better choice.

I also think, and I could be wrong, that some of the changes that you have made to your bike are part of the reason that 16/43 works better.

I plan, not sure when, but I plan on going back to 16/43 from 15/43 to feel the difference. Then, I'll put in a lightened flywheel with 16/43. I have a gut feeling that the 16/43 might perform like a stock 15/43. We'll see.

I'm a potential believer!

Part of my liking of the 15/43 is the ability to dig it out in 2nd. 1st isn't totally unusable, it is short, but not unusable.

This may be a carry over from my Jeeping, that I like lower gears. Dunno.

I am however, reading what you're writing, thinking and analyzing, and wiling to give it a shot. A potential believer.

It's not "too low", just may not be optimal.

RCVTR

Nobody has even mentioned 15/42. The best combination of all, if you ride 2 lane mountain roads and don't spend a lot of time droning on the freeways.

Erik S.

To answer part of the original question, that I haven't seen answered yet, all of these changes will improve 6th gear, you won't lose anything, in fact, you'll be able to use 6th to redline.

15/42 sounds good, only slightly taller than 15/43 and a fair lower than 16/43.

Mike's best reason for the 16 tooth counter-sprocket is the 5mm shorter wheelbase, if cornering is your thing.

Now, i'll only post the numbers, don't know if they'd work or not.

For the 16 tooth countersprocket with the much taller rear sprocket (16/45, 16/46) would the chain be longer and the wheelbase shorter?

REMEMBER, the HIGHER the number, the LOWER the gearing

15/42 = 2.8 also 16/45 = 2.8125
15/43 = 2.866 also 16/46 = 2.875

additional ratios

16/41 = 2.5625
16/42 = 2.625
16/43 = 2.6875
16/44 = 2.75

I think one of the key factors is, if you have tweaked your engine in any way, you might be able to get away with a taller gear.

This is good discussion. Can we get the same punch from a 15/43, but shorten the wheelbase with a 16/45 or 16/46?

RCVTR

The thing to think about there, is that 2 teeth (front, rear, or combination of both) is one link (1/2") shorter wheelbase.

*edit* sorry, that's 5/8" shorter wheelbase - that's what the 5 stands for in 520 or 530 chain.

I find the 15/42 to be a good combination because I have enough torque at the rear wheel to top out in 6th gear - not that I need to, except on the front straight, on the track - and in the slow corners, 2nd gear has me at a good engine speed for drive off the corner. 15/43 starts to be a bit short, because you will start to have to shift more often, which begins to negate the benefit of a broad, flat torque curve. At least that's been the recommendation I've been going on, without my own experimentation.

8541Hawk

I can buy that and do see what you are saying. It is good to see a bit of discussion on the subject and that was the whole point to begin with.

Erik S.

I like your reasoning for the gearing choice. I'm assuming it's very applicable to the track near you.

Personally, I think that will be the deciding factor for any change. Type of riding, personal preference. I mean, in this same conversation last year, I noted that Autoteach rides a 17/41. He likes it for his type of riding.

As to the chain lenght, I'm trying to wrap my head around what you wrote. If you stayed with a 16T countersprocket, but went up 2 teeth to a 43 rear, you would use a 104 link chain? If I recall correctly, 8541Hawk said the 16/43 uses stock chain length, as does the 15/43.

Hawk8541, see, I can listen and learn, this squid is trainable. Conversation is good. I think I'm going to experiment for you tonight. Have my buddy ride the bike with 15/43, change to 16/43, then install the lightened flywheel. See what results he experiences, since he doesn't ride it everyday, it should be a little more objective.

killer5280

There are lots of factors at work here, from performance to personal preference. Gearing for the track depends on several factors which include acceleration off of important corners to gearing for top speed. Ideally, you would select the gearing that gives the lowest elapsed time from the start to finish of the longest straightaway on the track, which might not be the gearing that gives the highest top speed and would vary from track to track. Of course gearing for important corners would be another thing to consider. Since the Super Hawk is not and has never been a competitive track bike this is a somewhat moot point, although for each track there would certainly be a correct gearing setup.
For the street it's a tradeoff between acceleration off of corners and how much buzzing on the freeway an individual is willing to put up with in exchange better performance on twisty roads. There is no "correct" answer in a street situation. The answer is highly subjective and dependent on rider preference.

Because a Super Hawk will not pull to redline with stock gearing in 6th gear, and actually goes faster in 5th than in 6th in stock configuration, there is no top speed penalty to be paid for shorter gearing. What gearing combination gives the absolute top speed for a Super Hawk I can't say and I don't really care much since I never go that fast anyway, but it must be said (again) that a Super Hawk will go as fast on top with 15/43 gearing as it will with the stock 16/41 gearing. It just does it in 6th rather than in 5th, but will accelerate to that speed quicker. I like the 15/43 combination and don't consider it too short for my preferences, but I haven't tried 16/43 or 15/42.

mboe794

I like killer's point. Some of you are talking like you you are top fuel dragster teams...trying to get gain every last tiny fraction of a second there is to be had. For most of us this doesn't matter. Mostly it's just preference. I've tried stock, 16/43, and 15/43. I like 15/43.

And the whole smaller sprocket deal... Yes, it may cause faster wear but I don't think there is any way in hell you are ever gonna notice it. It is way to small of a difference by only changing one tooth. If we were talking about 12 or 13 tooth sprockets then the story would be different.

Besides, bikes are toys. They should receive a little wear, maybe even some abuse. If not, you are not doing it right.

8541Hawk

Well I'm just an old Jarhead and still find it hard to communicate with out just using grunts and snarls....

I would like to here what he says after your experiment. It does sound like you should get some good information.

8541Hawk

I do agree with you here.


Well on these points we do disagree. I do believe there is a "correct" gearing for the street. It would be the one that gives you the most usable power overall.

Your second point is also incorrect. Yes with a 16\41 you can not pull to rev limiter. You can get to 9800 RPM though. With 15\43 gearing you will be turning right around 1000 RPM more for a given gear and at a given speed.

So even though you will end up spinning 500RPM more in 6th with the lower gearing, you will still be going slower than 16\41 gearing.

8541Hawk

Well you point doesn't make much sense as you are the one suggestion lower gear for better acceleration. Also I'm not looking to gain a fraction of a sec. instead I am trying to do is make the bike have the best overall performance possible.

Still you just say you like the gearing but not why you like it. As you should know by now, I just don't see what advantage you have with it.

A 15T sprocket is a pretty tight turn for the chain to make. You may think "there is any way in hell you are ever gonna notice it" but it actually accelerates chain wear quite a bit.

Well I've put over 80K miles on mine...... and it's not so much a toy as an obsession, so maybe I spend too much time figuring out what works the best.

RCVTR

I just like the way the bike runs with shorter gears, and I don't think I need to go taller or shorter. That's about as scientific as I need to get.

As far as wheelbase/chain length is concerned, just picture the chain coming off the chainrings tangentially, at a point perpendicular to a line passing through the axle. It's not exactly that, because of the angle of the chain, but pretty close. There is a top and a bottom section of the chain. If you add 2 teeth to the chainring, you will move the axle forward by the length of one chain link.

killer5280

A stock Super Hawk will not pull 9800 rpm in 6th gear. That translates to about 177 mph, and the Hawk in stock form simply will not even come close to that. Top speed for a stock Hawk is approximately 152-155 mph, which is about 9500 rpm in 5th gear with stock gearing. 9500 in 6th gear with 15/43 gearing is about the same speed--perhaps 1 or 2 mph faster.

I don't know how one would define most usable power overall.