Traction Sense
03-03-2005, 10:50 AM
#1
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SuperSport
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Location: Nananimo, B.C.
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Traction Sense
This is embarrassing to admit but I have zero traction sense. This scares me cause I dont know the limit of my bike. The chicken strips are nearly gone on my back tire. The only time I've had a tire break loose, other than decelerating in a straight line, is when I cranked a 90 degree corner on cold tires and the front end slid out a bit. Once the tires are warm, the bike seems to have no cornering limit, regardless of pavement condition, corse or smooth. No, I haven't dragged a peg yet and the feelers are still there but I expect that to change this season.
So, other than low siding my bike, how do you guys know if your approaching the traction limit?
Is this something that only "track day" people need/should worry about?
- Running Bridgestone Batlax (spl?) tires
- there are no race tracks anywhere near or far around where I live
So, other than low siding my bike, how do you guys know if your approaching the traction limit?
Is this something that only "track day" people need/should worry about?
- Running Bridgestone Batlax (spl?) tires
- there are no race tracks anywhere near or far around where I live
03-03-2005, 11:55 AM
#2
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Re: Traction Sense
The best thing about riding on a track is that it makes you realize how stupid it is to try to ride fast on the street. In my opinion a fast street pace should be nowhere near the limit of your tires.
If you think you're fast, go to a track and find out what fast is.
You'll have a look on your face like this!
Have fun. Ride safe.
03-03-2005, 01:28 PM
#3
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Re: Traction Sense
Thats what I'm asking. I dont know what the limit of my tires are. If I have rubbed off the chicken strips, am I close? If I'm scraping the foot peg feelers is that still considered safe or am I at 90/80/70% still?
How do you guys know when your about to break loose other than having the experience of actually breaking loose, which I would imagine was a VERY scary thing the first few times you did it?
I can't get to a track so I don't have anything to judge what "fast" is.
My skiing "fast" is absolutely mental to a lot of people but grandma slow to pro down hillers.
How do you guys know when your about to break loose other than having the experience of actually breaking loose, which I would imagine was a VERY scary thing the first few times you did it?
I can't get to a track so I don't have anything to judge what "fast" is.
My skiing "fast" is absolutely mental to a lot of people but grandma slow to pro down hillers.
03-03-2005, 01:41 PM
#4
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Re: Traction Sense
I know what you're saying. The thing about riding on the street is that traction is so unpredictable and varies so widely. sliding on the street is most likely going to be caused by sand, gravel, oil, radiator fluid, a sudden evasive maneuver, or a million other variables. Of course you know this. If you are riding comfortably and defensively you are most likely nowhere near traction limits on dry clean pavement. My main point about the track, besides being more fun than should be legal, is that it's there that you really see how high the traction limits are for sport tires under controlled conditions. Much higher than you might think. I found the Pilot Sports rather "squirmy" on the street unless I pushed them pretty hard and got them warm. I really liked the Metzeler Sportec M1 on the steet and the track. But I've started running only DOT race tires for higher margin of safety at the track. I don't get near the limit on them.
03-03-2005, 01:46 PM
#5
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very good question.
Let me put in my 2 cents, which is mostly based on street riding and various readings: Today's tire technology is such that street tires provide levels of grip that were unheard of a few years back. Good old softer tires that you can buy today, like M1 or BT014 or D208, provide enough grip that on dry, warmed up conditions, at street speeds, you won't be able to break them loose, unless of course you do something stupid. With street speeds, I am talking about taking a 30 mph turn at 60 mph max, for example.
That being said, your style of riding and the lines that you take through the turn also play a big role on how much tire you are using. I normally make the same turn, choosing a different line, with a lot less lean than some others do in a group ride. I have a bigger margin of error that I can use, if I need to.
The best way you can find out about the tire's limitations is to slowly and gradually increase your speed. Most tire slides are momentary and can be handled by throttle control and weighing of the outside peg. If you gradually push the bike more, you may get to a point where you will notice slight slides and you can learn about the limits. I don't recommend getting there on street, as something as small as a few pieces of gravel on the road can put you well beyond those limits.
Wet conditions are different, but still today's tires provide excellent grip in wet conditions as well. I still ride at about 50% when it is wet out there.
Let me put in my 2 cents, which is mostly based on street riding and various readings: Today's tire technology is such that street tires provide levels of grip that were unheard of a few years back. Good old softer tires that you can buy today, like M1 or BT014 or D208, provide enough grip that on dry, warmed up conditions, at street speeds, you won't be able to break them loose, unless of course you do something stupid. With street speeds, I am talking about taking a 30 mph turn at 60 mph max, for example.
That being said, your style of riding and the lines that you take through the turn also play a big role on how much tire you are using. I normally make the same turn, choosing a different line, with a lot less lean than some others do in a group ride. I have a bigger margin of error that I can use, if I need to.
The best way you can find out about the tire's limitations is to slowly and gradually increase your speed. Most tire slides are momentary and can be handled by throttle control and weighing of the outside peg. If you gradually push the bike more, you may get to a point where you will notice slight slides and you can learn about the limits. I don't recommend getting there on street, as something as small as a few pieces of gravel on the road can put you well beyond those limits.
Wet conditions are different, but still today's tires provide excellent grip in wet conditions as well. I still ride at about 50% when it is wet out there.
03-03-2005, 05:42 PM
#6
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Re: Traction Sense
Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to me that rider position would also impact the traction limits--at least the top-speed part of them--, i.e., leaning and shifting one's axis on the seat, in the old "knee dragger" position, increases the safe speed at which you can traverse aggressive turns, because, with the shift in the axis of the rider, you don't have to lean the bike as far to get the same results.
When my friend Alex took me to motorcycle Nirvana near Suches, GA and showed me how to lean and tuck my head and torso, I found that I was moving plenty fast through curves--75-90 mph--and was coming nowhere near the handling limitations of the bike, though not with stock suspension (with the Fox TC-1 and Race Tech fork springs on SuperChicken II).
Speaking of which, I would also guess that aftermarket shock (Fox/Penske/Ohlins) and Race Tech fork springs would enter the equation. For example, I've noticed how much more confidence-inspiring SuperChicken III is with the Penske 8100 installed and tuned to my weight than it was with the stock Showa shock and WimpMaster OEM fork springs, now replaced with Race Tech fork springs and also tuned to my weight: The stock setup seemed comparatively wobbly for a rider of my limited talent. It seems to me that a VTR with tricked-out suspension is capable of much higher speeds during cornering than most riders would likely ever attempt off of the race track.
cheers,
--HotStreetVTR
When my friend Alex took me to motorcycle Nirvana near Suches, GA and showed me how to lean and tuck my head and torso, I found that I was moving plenty fast through curves--75-90 mph--and was coming nowhere near the handling limitations of the bike, though not with stock suspension (with the Fox TC-1 and Race Tech fork springs on SuperChicken II).
Speaking of which, I would also guess that aftermarket shock (Fox/Penske/Ohlins) and Race Tech fork springs would enter the equation. For example, I've noticed how much more confidence-inspiring SuperChicken III is with the Penske 8100 installed and tuned to my weight than it was with the stock Showa shock and WimpMaster OEM fork springs, now replaced with Race Tech fork springs and also tuned to my weight: The stock setup seemed comparatively wobbly for a rider of my limited talent. It seems to me that a VTR with tricked-out suspension is capable of much higher speeds during cornering than most riders would likely ever attempt off of the race track.
cheers,
--HotStreetVTR
03-04-2005, 08:27 AM
#7
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Yes it is. Put a fork brace on to really make the forks work. I followed a Ducati 998 over Monitor Pass a couple of years ago. Actually, I led over the top then he came by and started riding much faster than I thought was safe, so I let him go. There is a corner that changes radius and flattens out at the same time. He went in too hot and when I came around he had wadded his brand new Ducati and dislocated his elbow, on clean, dry pavement. He was trying to figure out what he did wrong. He didn't know the road and was riding too fast. A guy on an SV650 did the same thing on a different corner last year. Forunately there were no serious injuries. If you want to know the limits of your bike, you have to go to the track. It'll keep you from trying to find it on the street. Street racing is crazy and drives up my insurance rates!
03-04-2005, 10:37 AM
#9
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I agree with what faz said about increasing your speed slowly & gradually. Not that the bike or tires care, but just so you become comfortable with the increased speed incrementally. And you can't do that when you're riding over your head.
07-20-2006, 09:32 AM
#11
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Squid
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Wittmann, Az
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old school new world
In 1987 I bought my first brand new sportbike, a Yamaha FZ700, the stock Bridgestones were so slippery I was a burn out king when I wanted to do a wheelie, I was so uninformed that a fellow rider told me the wheelbase of the bike, (he had one too), was too long to do a wheelie, I fell for it. A short time later I moved to Gainesville Ga and met up with a bunch of guys who roade GSXR 750's. Oh you gotta get Dunlop K591's on your bike. K591's!!! Look those up on Dunlops website. So I did, back then a stock rear wide tire was a 130 and I upped mine to a 140, ooooh such big tires. I had no problem at all dragging my knees around every corner, even with a girl on the back, no problems with wheelies or stoppies, I learned stoppies by accident but it was impressive. That was with a tire that would last 20,000 miles or more. Now fast forward, I have a superhawk, bought it last February with 2000 miles on it, I have 21,000 now. I have run D208's on it since ownership. These tires are so sticky I can barely hold myself up when stopping really really hard, Now that I'm 40 I don't drag my knees anymore, I love the curves, but something about not knowing what's around the curve scares me, and I have a mortgage and four year old, anyone can be a Doug Polen in the straights, it's the curves that seperate that fast from the faster, I do scrape my boots or pegs on Sunday rides without really even trying and the tires have been worn to within a few millimeters of the edge. Tires are amazing creatures, in my opinion they can be a second pair of gonads, like leathers are. I've never been to a track day, a dream of mine though. For fathers day my kids took me and the bike to Bristol Dragway, first time drag racing, I'm 40 years old 230 lbs and was running in the 11's, and I didn't even know where to stage or what to expect. It was definitely fun. My bike is stock except for TBR high mounts. I get about 118-121 miles before the low fuel light comes on and I run the least expensive grade of regular gasoline, and Rotella oil.
07-20-2006, 01:34 PM
#12
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Squid
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: City By The Bay
Posts: 75
Those of us that live in N. California a extremely spoiled by our year 'round riding and availble race tracks. There are 5 full race tracks within 4 hours of San Francisco, one of which I'll be at this weekend watching the worlds best do their thing. So we tend to be track biased in our opinions. Poor Noorth lives in the artic circle and only gets to ride a couple months out of the year, and has to maximize the time he has. Go ride the snot out of it. On a good clean road lean 'til you are dragging hard parts and still have plenty of traction.
But I don't recomend it. On public roads the variables are too great to know what your tires are relly capable of. It takes very little dirt or sand or oil or whatever to spit you off at extreme lean angles.
But I don't recomend it. On public roads the variables are too great to know what your tires are relly capable of. It takes very little dirt or sand or oil or whatever to spit you off at extreme lean angles.
07-21-2006, 01:30 AM
#14
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I find the stock 2005 tires are pretty poor compared to my recently installed Pirelli Diablos. Tire choice makes a big difference. I could never get past pinky-width, 1/3 inch chicken strips on my OEM tires without the rear end going out on me under any conditions.
07-28-2006, 10:45 PM
#15
Seņor Miembro, Ay Caramba
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Originally Posted by NOrrTH
No, I haven't dragged a peg yet and the feelers are still there but I expect that to change this season.
So, other than low siding my bike, how do you guys know if your approaching the traction limit?
So, other than low siding my bike, how do you guys know if your approaching the traction limit?
07-29-2006, 10:38 AM
#16
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Squid
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Maple Valley, WA
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this is probably preaching to the choir, but here it goes...
when coming to a corner brake early, smooth through the corner and accelerate out. just 3 days ago a friend (on my 2nd bike, of course) was trying to keep up with better rides than himself, downshifted MID-CORNER, lost the rear-end and punched a hole in scenery. he was ok, a few scratches. bike was mechanically fine, it lost some plastic and the shift lever. he is now the proud owner of my slightly used, newly naked suzuki 600
he was lucky it was just pride and plastic lost, accidents of all kinds happen verrry quickly. please get to know your own limits before testing the limits of your equipment.
when coming to a corner brake early, smooth through the corner and accelerate out. just 3 days ago a friend (on my 2nd bike, of course) was trying to keep up with better rides than himself, downshifted MID-CORNER, lost the rear-end and punched a hole in scenery. he was ok, a few scratches. bike was mechanically fine, it lost some plastic and the shift lever. he is now the proud owner of my slightly used, newly naked suzuki 600
he was lucky it was just pride and plastic lost, accidents of all kinds happen verrry quickly. please get to know your own limits before testing the limits of your equipment.
07-29-2006, 11:12 AM
#17
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Down shifted in mid corner don't ever do that!! Talk about a quick way to disturb your bike, if anything I'll shift up in mid corner but never down. BTW I recomend nonclutch up shifts on the track, it makes it a lot smoother, just blip and shift. As far as knowing when the tire will break loose, it really is something you just get a feel for and race tires usually give more warning then street tires. However I don't recommend race tires for street use.
don't ever do that!! Talk about a quick way to disturb your bike, if anything I'll shift up in mid corner but never down. BTW I recomend nonclutch up shifts on the track, it makes it a lot smoother, just blip and shift. As far as knowing when the tire will break loose, it really is something you just get a feel for and race tires usually give more warning then street tires. However I don't recommend race tires for street use.
07-29-2006, 04:32 PM
#18
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Wow someone dug up what I think is my very first post from about 2ish years ago :P
To update I've been riding with very experienced maniacs since then (they ride beater bikes because they go down so much). I've learned a ton and managed to stay alive and relatively uninjured (2 lowsides and bruised ribs).
I can't recall sliding a tire around a corner once although I have slid the front and back when they're cold. One thing that amazes me is that you can lean pretty good in the rain.
To update I've been riding with very experienced maniacs since then (they ride beater bikes because they go down so much). I've learned a ton and managed to stay alive and relatively uninjured (2 lowsides and bruised ribs).
I can't recall sliding a tire around a corner once although I have slid the front and back when they're cold. One thing that amazes me is that you can lean pretty good in the rain.
07-29-2006, 08:37 PM
#19
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Stock tires (Dunlop D204s) on my '02 sucked monkey *****. I'd have it heeled over and on the way out of one particular onramp at the beginning of our local "ramp loop", I'd regularly begin to walk the rear end with the throttle. Kinda felt like being on a white line while leaned over in the rain. First time it happened that's what I thought it was, second time I realized I was a couple feet from the line and it really was the tires sucking. Now I have a set of Pilot Powers. Whoah. Hit the same corner and the first time through I was about 10% faster on the exit just because I didn't have to feather the throttle. They stick pretty good in the rain too. I did manage to spin up the rear on a corner exit in the rain, but that was intentional. Now if you're ham-fisted and an idiot, you could overspin tires made out of stick-em in the rain, but with modern tires you'd be hard pressed to get beyond their limits on the street.
07-29-2006, 11:00 PM
#20
Seņor Miembro, Ay Caramba
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It's always good to hear positive stories about stickies holding up in the rain.
It was first gear, but still, a less-than-eighth throttle blip got the rear tire spinning in the rain.
I love this bike, but I can't wait to do suspension, brakes, and sprockets... and maybe most importantly, the stock tires have got to go.
.. plus not being a back marker is nice ..
It was first gear, but still, a less-than-eighth throttle blip got the rear tire spinning in the rain.
I love this bike, but I can't wait to do suspension, brakes, and sprockets... and maybe most importantly, the stock tires have got to go.
.. plus not being a back marker is nice ..
07-30-2006, 12:29 AM
#21
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Downshifted mid-corner by mistake once. I was trying to shift to 1st at around 30mph from second into a 90 right-turn but the not-so-good shifter notched into Neutral. Halfway thru I thought it -might- be okay (still at 30) to shift to first. Nope. I ended up using -all- of the rear tire and the bike forcably wobbled but luckilly I weigh 185 pounds and was able to swing my fat majestically enough to right the bike as it swung back (and still maintained the turn).
I don't recommend this manuver.
OEM tires take about 5 minutes to warm up at about 30mph. Pirelli Diablos take about 1 minute.
I don't recommend this manuver.
OEM tires take about 5 minutes to warm up at about 30mph. Pirelli Diablos take about 1 minute.
07-31-2006, 07:43 AM
#22
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I think suspension has so much to do with it.
I recently purchased a Super Hawk, and got rid of an '03 SV650S. The suspension on the SV was super soft and crappy.
I had Metzler M-1's on the SV and I liked them. I have Dunlop 204's on the Super Hawk.
Having said that, I get way more lean angle out of the Super Hawk. I get within less than a 1/4 of an inch to the edge of the tire, whereas on the SV, I would get only an inch from the edge of the tire. The difference, I think is suspension. The SH is much more planted, even on inferior tires.
I got some Sonic Springs, .95/, for the SH I'm going to install. Should be even better.
I recently purchased a Super Hawk, and got rid of an '03 SV650S. The suspension on the SV was super soft and crappy.
I had Metzler M-1's on the SV and I liked them. I have Dunlop 204's on the Super Hawk.
Having said that, I get way more lean angle out of the Super Hawk. I get within less than a 1/4 of an inch to the edge of the tire, whereas on the SV, I would get only an inch from the edge of the tire. The difference, I think is suspension. The SH is much more planted, even on inferior tires.
I got some Sonic Springs, .95/, for the SH I'm going to install. Should be even better.
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