Report from the Track and some ???s
05-15-2007, 01:20 PM
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Report from the Track and some ???s
Yesterday was my first opportunity to take my VTR to the track. The decision to purchase a new bike (which turned out to be the Hawk) was motivated by my first track experience on my highly underpowered, undersprung, overweight Seca 2. So after 3-4 months of street riding and getting to know the VTR's character I took her to Buttonwillow to ride in the B group at a Red Shift track day. Red Shift puts on a nice track day with instructors always available for all levels of riders; breakfast snacks, water, Gatorade, and lunch provided; and a safe and fun atmosphere to ride in. Prepping the Hawk for the day didn't require much; I taped the indicators and lights, removed the mirrors and license plate, and made sure everything was in good working order. This generally took about an hour or two to accomplish, and I had no problem passing tech inspection. Getting on the track in the first session, I found myself surrounded by the usual contingent of GSXR, YZF, and CBRs of various displacements; along with the odd Mille, FZR400, Guzzi, Daytona, and Motard. My first couple laps were overwhelmed by newness. Everything was new to me. The bike, the track direction, the group of riders, the speed, the handling, etc. It actually took 3-4 sessions to get comfortable with everything, so I pushed through it all with a goal of being smooth and finding the lines. Nothing clicked until the afternoon's second session when I started feeling real comfortable with the other riders, the bike's handling, and the track configuration. Don't get me wrong, the bike was handling great all morning, but I had not pushed those types of lean angles and cornering speeds on the street, so I was much more uncomfortable with it than the bike was. But once I found some of the limits (approached with caution), I became comfortable with what I had to deal with and started laying down some smooth (and much faster) laps. I found my rythm, and nobody (instructors excluded) was passing me. It certainly wasn't a race, but after a morning of getting passed by guys with some ugly riding styles and rather poor technique; I was glad to be able to hang in front of them and let the torqy hawk pull away at corner exits.
Which brings me to some key points about the VTR. I found that I could get away with 2 gears around the track and not feel terribly slow. In fact, I think I stayed in 3rd gear for the entire warmup lap of each session. The torque was a great tool when I went hot and late in to a corner and was afraid of disrupting my (already botched) corner entry by down shifting, I just cracked open the throttle when the time was right, and used that awesome low end to pull me out of the hole. Which also brings to light the engine breaking which was so handy, as I wasn't very confident in the brakes (especially trailing into a turn). I think the brakes need improvement. I am going to put new pads on tonight, and change out the fluid; but I feel an upgrade might be needed. A couple of things that caught my attention that may also need to be addressed are the rear sets, and the throttle. I don't know if I need to improve my riding technique or what, but I was dragging the pegs (and my toe sliders) far more frequently than my knee. Having relatively short legs (I am about 5' 6 5/8" with a <30" inseam), getting a knee out in the wind isn't super easy. I am thinking I would be an ideal candidate for aftermarket rearsets. Any suggestions? The throttle wasn't a big deal, but I seamed to have to really turn it around to get it wide open. I felt like I had to twist it beyond the normal motion of my wrist to get to full throttle. Is this a common upgrade? Is there a 1/4 or 1/5 turn throttle that is suggested for the VTR?
Beyone these couple things, everything ran great! The suspension (racetech springs in the fork only) seemed work well enough for me; the Dunlop Qualifiers felt confidently stuck to the ground, even with me banging the pegs into the asphalt, and wagging unsmooth downshifts into the slow corners! Steering is a bit slow, and there were a couple turns that required a bit of effort to get her over; but all in all the bike felt very stable to me.
It was a great day of riding and I left the track inspired, confident, happy, and satisfied; thanks to the performance of my now broken in SuperHawk.
If anyone has suggestions regarding the front brakes (I know, the search function will reveal quite a bit on this topic), the rearsets, or the throttle; please let me know as these are the areas of improvement I would like to focus on.
Which brings me to some key points about the VTR. I found that I could get away with 2 gears around the track and not feel terribly slow. In fact, I think I stayed in 3rd gear for the entire warmup lap of each session. The torque was a great tool when I went hot and late in to a corner and was afraid of disrupting my (already botched) corner entry by down shifting, I just cracked open the throttle when the time was right, and used that awesome low end to pull me out of the hole. Which also brings to light the engine breaking which was so handy, as I wasn't very confident in the brakes (especially trailing into a turn). I think the brakes need improvement. I am going to put new pads on tonight, and change out the fluid; but I feel an upgrade might be needed. A couple of things that caught my attention that may also need to be addressed are the rear sets, and the throttle. I don't know if I need to improve my riding technique or what, but I was dragging the pegs (and my toe sliders) far more frequently than my knee. Having relatively short legs (I am about 5' 6 5/8" with a <30" inseam), getting a knee out in the wind isn't super easy. I am thinking I would be an ideal candidate for aftermarket rearsets. Any suggestions? The throttle wasn't a big deal, but I seamed to have to really turn it around to get it wide open. I felt like I had to twist it beyond the normal motion of my wrist to get to full throttle. Is this a common upgrade? Is there a 1/4 or 1/5 turn throttle that is suggested for the VTR?
Beyone these couple things, everything ran great! The suspension (racetech springs in the fork only) seemed work well enough for me; the Dunlop Qualifiers felt confidently stuck to the ground, even with me banging the pegs into the asphalt, and wagging unsmooth downshifts into the slow corners! Steering is a bit slow, and there were a couple turns that required a bit of effort to get her over; but all in all the bike felt very stable to me.
It was a great day of riding and I left the track inspired, confident, happy, and satisfied; thanks to the performance of my now broken in SuperHawk.
If anyone has suggestions regarding the front brakes (I know, the search function will reveal quite a bit on this topic), the rearsets, or the throttle; please let me know as these are the areas of improvement I would like to focus on.
05-15-2007, 01:37 PM
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once you go to rearsets, you'll start draggin the side stand and side exhausts (if you have standard/low mounts), You'll have to learn to hang off more, or raise the rear ride height (which would make it harder for you to touch ground since you are shorter).
I've got Gilles rearsets and love the adjustability, I can mount the pegs low/forward for street riding, then move them up/back for track days in short order.
Yes, sometimes the VTR's throttle does feel like you run out of wrist before hitting full throttle, (I think honda did this as a cheap fix to limit wheelie-ing), the only solution I know if is to make sure you have no slack in your throttle cables, and to position your wrist higher up when starting out, so that full throttle doesn't put your wrist at such an angle.
You're right on the torque aspect. I usually do Spring Mountain Motorsports track in Paharump, NV, and I can get around on 2 gears(2nd and 3rd) with the exception of the back straight which requires a short stint into 4th gear.
Glad you had a good time!
I've got Gilles rearsets and love the adjustability, I can mount the pegs low/forward for street riding, then move them up/back for track days in short order.
Yes, sometimes the VTR's throttle does feel like you run out of wrist before hitting full throttle, (I think honda did this as a cheap fix to limit wheelie-ing), the only solution I know if is to make sure you have no slack in your throttle cables, and to position your wrist higher up when starting out, so that full throttle doesn't put your wrist at such an angle.
You're right on the torque aspect. I usually do Spring Mountain Motorsports track in Paharump, NV, and I can get around on 2 gears(2nd and 3rd) with the exception of the back straight which requires a short stint into 4th gear.
Glad you had a good time!
05-15-2007, 01:54 PM
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i've gotten in 2 trackdays in the past 2 weeks 
( the bad part is i still had my spring tires on bt014's - normally i only run dragons on the track ).
to your questions:
i'm 5'8" ( 30" inseam ) and only deck my toe sliders when my inside foot isn't in the ideal position. normal i see people dragging their foot before their knee because of poor body position. if you get your butt off the seat but keep your upper body inline with the tank your basically rotating your knee forward. you need to move it sideways - which means your whole body need to move. hopefully somebody took some pictures that you can look at.
throttle: i turn my idle up to 2.5k to 3k rpms. it cuts down on engine braking ( the twin can engine break too much ) & also reduces the rotation of the stock thottle.
brakes: i have braided lines and HH pads & have no problems braking for T1 at PIR 's loooong straight ( rev limiter in 6th to about a 70-80 mph first turn ).
i've regeared mine -1+2 and love the drive out of corners. the front end often gets light, so this year i bought a steering damper and just love the stability.
welcome to the addiction
tim
( the bad part is i still had my spring tires on bt014's - normally i only run dragons on the track ).to your questions:
i'm 5'8" ( 30" inseam ) and only deck my toe sliders when my inside foot isn't in the ideal position. normal i see people dragging their foot before their knee because of poor body position. if you get your butt off the seat but keep your upper body inline with the tank your basically rotating your knee forward. you need to move it sideways - which means your whole body need to move. hopefully somebody took some pictures that you can look at.
throttle: i turn my idle up to 2.5k to 3k rpms. it cuts down on engine braking ( the twin can engine break too much ) & also reduces the rotation of the stock thottle.
brakes: i have braided lines and HH pads & have no problems braking for T1 at PIR 's loooong straight ( rev limiter in 6th to about a 70-80 mph first turn ).
i've regeared mine -1+2 and love the drive out of corners. the front end often gets light, so this year i bought a steering damper and just love the stability.
welcome to the addiction
tim
05-15-2007, 02:34 PM
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I did get my knee down a few times without dragging my pegs/toes, so I am sure that body position and hanging off is most of the battle; however it does seem like rear sets would be a good upgrade. My research is showing that Gilles, Morawaki, WR, make rearsets; any others?
Nobody does partial turn throttles?
I am going to do the brake pads tonight, and already have stainless lines; but I may be looking at some other types of upgrades.
Nobody does partial turn throttles?
I am going to do the brake pads tonight, and already have stainless lines; but I may be looking at some other types of upgrades.
05-15-2007, 02:44 PM
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o.k. here is a great example. this is me on my first track day ( last year )
you can see how in getting my butt off with my head still over the tank what i am actually doing is rotating my hips ( & moving my knee forward & out vs. straight out ), this prevents you from getting your knee on the deck ( unless you have really long legs )
hope this helps
tim
you can see how in getting my butt off with my head still over the tank what i am actually doing is rotating my hips ( & moving my knee forward & out vs. straight out ), this prevents you from getting your knee on the deck ( unless you have really long legs )
hope this helps
tim
05-15-2007, 02:50 PM
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And don't forget to keep your toes up on the pegs unless you are actually changing gear or using the back brake...
My stock VTR can corner with almost any standard GSXR at trackday/playdays. It's a question of reading the manual very carefully about set-up, then trying to apply and learn. As you have a new VTR, I suggest that you play with the stock equipment first before buying too much aftermarket gear.
And once again: "It ain't what you got, but the way that you use it..."
My stock VTR can corner with almost any standard GSXR at trackday/playdays. It's a question of reading the manual very carefully about set-up, then trying to apply and learn. As you have a new VTR, I suggest that you play with the stock equipment first before buying too much aftermarket gear.
And once again: "It ain't what you got, but the way that you use it..."
05-15-2007, 05:25 PM
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Which equipment are you refering to? I feel like I have the suspension set up as good as it can be with the given parts. I have Racetech springs, but I still bottom out the front (which isn't a big deal because I was happy with the suspension). I don't know what else I can adjust to improve the braking, clearance, or throttle; but I am open for suggestions. My feet were not hanging out too much, but obviously enough to hit the ground when the peg did. I am new to the hanging off process, but I have learned some things about correct body positioning and typically ride with the ***** of my feet on the pegs. I am off to change my pads. Thanks for the input.
05-15-2007, 05:30 PM
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"Which equipment...?" - any and all equipment.
And a tip from an old professional racer who still does some racing - change one thing at a time so you can analyse your changes properly.
And a tip from an old professional racer who still does some racing - change one thing at a time so you can analyse your changes properly.
05-15-2007, 06:41 PM
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you can order a throttle from an rc45. honda still make them and they just slip on over the bar. be careful what you wish for though, it needs alot of control because your very close to WOT on it. it takes alot of getting use to. it's a little less the 1/4 trun.
05-15-2007, 08:45 PM
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Drop your head and shoulders inside and forward and you can get thru the turns better and keep from draggin parts.
I looked at a lot of still photos (the AMA website is a GREAT place to look) and studied what the real racer guys do. It helps me see what I do wrong.
Good advice on the toes. Keep them on the pegs, especially in turns.
I once got caught in a low side (pretty minor) crash on the track with my toe under the shifter.
Neither the shifter nor my toe faired very well.
CORRECTION: edited because I lost track of which photo was of who, and my comments were out of whack anyways.
(bad hair day?)
I looked at a lot of still photos (the AMA website is a GREAT place to look) and studied what the real racer guys do. It helps me see what I do wrong.
Good advice on the toes. Keep them on the pegs, especially in turns.
I once got caught in a low side (pretty minor) crash on the track with my toe under the shifter.
Neither the shifter nor my toe faired very well.
CORRECTION: edited because I lost track of which photo was of who, and my comments were out of whack anyways.
(bad hair day?)
05-16-2007, 07:22 AM
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one of the best tips I got for getting my upperbody in the right position was to make sure your head is inline with where you inside rear view used to be. buying the little $15 aftermarket pegs will raise up you clearance by about 1'' and should get the pegs off the deck.
05-16-2007, 03:27 PM
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One thing I was told was to give yourself space between you and the fuel tank. This will help you hang off the bike easier (still havent mastered this yet). The stock seat slopes toward the fuel tank which makes it more difficult to do.
05-16-2007, 08:12 PM
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I might get an RC45 throttle tube myself. I say go for it. You have to upgrade the brakes from stock if you're taking it on the track.. have to.. SS line and HH pads. And I wouldn't worry about rearsets until you've got body positioning down. Besides keeping your toes (***** of feet) on the rubber, aim with your chest when you're hanging off. That will get your knee off and your weight out, and is the main thing that helps me focus on proper body positioning. Try it. Aim with your chest.
05-16-2007, 09:20 PM
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1. Remove the peg feelers if not already done.
2. Once you upgrade your brakes, if you're already bottoming the forks do you think it will be any better? No, it won't. You need to revalve your forks for the springs. More compression damping and definitely more rebound.
3. Raise the rear ride height. Even though you are already "inseam challenged" a few mm will still help. This will allow the bike to steer quicker and at the same time give you more lean angle to play with. Can be accomplished with a shim or a new shock (recommended).
4. Body position. The other guys have said what needs to be said already. If you get your upper body lower and over into the turn then your wrist will be down quite a few degrees just by this action. You may not need to mess with the throttle at all.
5. Minor niggle but you didn't say if you unplugged your headlight. The headlight can heat the tape adhesive to the point of etching the headlight coating. I had it happen to me and it sucked.
Glad you had fun on your track day. As much fun as you can have while still wearing clothes.
I gave up a track day recently for a new 50" plasma. I don't normally spend my money (credit?) on non-motorcycle things but I'm pretty happy with the trade this time. I'll still have fun at the Rally.
2. Once you upgrade your brakes, if you're already bottoming the forks do you think it will be any better? No, it won't. You need to revalve your forks for the springs. More compression damping and definitely more rebound.
3. Raise the rear ride height. Even though you are already "inseam challenged" a few mm will still help. This will allow the bike to steer quicker and at the same time give you more lean angle to play with. Can be accomplished with a shim or a new shock (recommended).
4. Body position. The other guys have said what needs to be said already. If you get your upper body lower and over into the turn then your wrist will be down quite a few degrees just by this action. You may not need to mess with the throttle at all.
5. Minor niggle but you didn't say if you unplugged your headlight. The headlight can heat the tape adhesive to the point of etching the headlight coating. I had it happen to me and it sucked.
Glad you had fun on your track day. As much fun as you can have while still wearing clothes.
I gave up a track day recently for a new 50" plasma. I don't normally spend my money (credit?) on non-motorcycle things but I'm pretty happy with the trade this time. I'll still have fun at the Rally.
05-17-2007, 05:14 AM
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Thanks all for great suggestions.
When I went through tech inspection I was told to keep an eye on my front pads as they were gettting thin, and Buttonwillow can be hard on brakes. I didn't think they were that bad, but I always listen to people that know more than me. When I changed the pads, I found a couple of things. 1) the pads were a little thin, but not terrible, but I changed them anyway. 2) the pads that I removed were HH, and the pads that I put in (came with the bike) are EBC and appear to be GG. I don't know if I did myself a dis-service by doing this?
Other than that, I had already removed the feelers from the pegs, the forks have an "unknown" set up as they were done prior to me owning the bike, and I would love to upgrade the shock. I have thought that having the passenger pegs in the front might be good, but I am going to hold off on rearset mods at this point. I keep my feet in reasonably good position, but will continue to work on the hang off body position. I was trying to ride low, and aim my chest/chin into the turn to keep my *** to neck line parallel to the bike as I shifted my weight, but obviously I wasn't successful on every turn.
As far as the throttle is concerned; I made some adjustments to the cable and think that it is better now. I won't be buying anything to try to fix a problem that may not really be there. I like the suggestion of turning the throttle screw in a little while at the track, and will try that next time.
Unless I can find a shock for a reasonable $$, I will likely leave everything the same until after the next track day, and see how many things I can fix with riding technique.
When I went through tech inspection I was told to keep an eye on my front pads as they were gettting thin, and Buttonwillow can be hard on brakes. I didn't think they were that bad, but I always listen to people that know more than me. When I changed the pads, I found a couple of things. 1) the pads were a little thin, but not terrible, but I changed them anyway. 2) the pads that I removed were HH, and the pads that I put in (came with the bike) are EBC and appear to be GG. I don't know if I did myself a dis-service by doing this?
Other than that, I had already removed the feelers from the pegs, the forks have an "unknown" set up as they were done prior to me owning the bike, and I would love to upgrade the shock. I have thought that having the passenger pegs in the front might be good, but I am going to hold off on rearset mods at this point. I keep my feet in reasonably good position, but will continue to work on the hang off body position. I was trying to ride low, and aim my chest/chin into the turn to keep my *** to neck line parallel to the bike as I shifted my weight, but obviously I wasn't successful on every turn.
As far as the throttle is concerned; I made some adjustments to the cable and think that it is better now. I won't be buying anything to try to fix a problem that may not really be there. I like the suggestion of turning the throttle screw in a little while at the track, and will try that next time.
Unless I can find a shock for a reasonable $$, I will likely leave everything the same until after the next track day, and see how many things I can fix with riding technique.
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