Perspective...
03-30-2009, 01:42 PM
#1
Senior Member
SuperBike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
Posts: 1,689
Perspective...
I’m writing this message in response to a change in perspective, brought about by events of last week and the many hours spent mulling them over in my head since then. Much of what I need to say has been in the back of my mind for a long time, but I have not had the mental discipline to put it in check. At this point, I’m afraid it may have cost me a dear and long-term friendship. I don’t know if I rubbed somebody the wrong way, here on the forum, or exactly what happened. If I rubbed some of you the wrong way, I apologize. This is the first step in an attempt to make it all right.
I want to issue a public apology for my antics here on the Super Hawk forum. I have been far too outspoken in my responses to the discussions here and at times I have spoken beyond my experience and knowledge level. Part of this is due to a desire for interaction with members of the motorcycling community, but nothing to ride. Another part is that I am not a good desk person, I’m and even worse hotel room person and I look for an escape from the tedium. But that has gotten out of hand and excessive, due to a basic lack of mental discipline. I get a lot of enjoyment from the shared enthusiasm here. The other part, is because I have had a situation where I have been patiently tutored and mentored in the ways of Honda V-twin sport bikes, through a long series of question/answer sessions, over the last 8-10 years. Not because I’m anybody special, it’s just been an opportunity that has arisen through circumstance.
I have been fascinated and have tried to ask intelligent questions (with some success). My mentor has appreciated my fascination, diligence and hard work in applying his advice. It has been hugely rewarding for me and I know that he has enjoyed watching me progress as well. The technical level of our discussions has gotten more advanced over time. Any time I have gone away, wondering if I agree with the advice or the explanation I’ve been given, or tried something contrary to it, I have gone away and eventually ended up understanding the underlying wisdom that led to that piece of advice, in the first place. There is no substitute for wisdom gained through experience.
I have at times, stepped beyond my level of experience or knowledge here on the forum, in my enthusiasm and desire to enter into a technical discussion about motorcycles. That kind of stuff is at the core of who I am and the way my mind works. Many times, a question has been asked, which I have asked and received an answer to in the past. I have tried to relay the answer and my underlying interpretation as accurately and completely as possible. These have mostly involved engine modifications, and to a lesser degree suspension and chassis setup.
The engine stuff is pretty straightforward. It requires a high degree of mechanical aptitude, a lot of patience and attention to detail. Most of the advice that I was given, when building my engines, was based upon the knowledge that I was doing the work by myself, in my garage/shop with a good set of basic tools, a few specialized tools, a good understanding of machining and manufacturing procedures, a lot of internal motivation and a limited budget.
If some of the advice I have relayed has seemed like a shortcut, it’s because it was something that a hobby builder at my level could omit, without significant consequences, but with an understanding of the compromise involved. I have grown to understand these compromises better as time goes on, and my experience increases. A big budget race project is a lot different than a hobbyist project. There is a lot of room in-between, depending on your particular goals and how much farming out of precision work you want to do and pay for.
The other discussions I tend to enter are those related to suspension. I like to talk about this stuff because writing is a good way to organize your thoughts. It helps me to develop my understanding. I can’t claim to be an expert on any level. I think I have come across as trying to be, but that is certainly not the case. I talk about it, because I’m trying to understand it. I am drawn to the challenge of it. That’s why I like to get into these discussions. But I have come to realize that I need to talk less and listen more. I will gain a better understanding as I get more seat time. It is technical enough that it’s difficult to get your mind around, especially when you can’t apply it to a riding situation. I’ve missed 3 seasons of riding. It seems like more. That is about to change.
The most important things to put into your motorcycle are fuel and tires. Modifications are fun and entertaining, if you like that sort of thing. But I have come to realize that I have been placing too much emphasis on the modifications. It’s been winter and a long wait to get this thing on the track.
For example, I was going to install an airbox and ram-air snorkel that I had stored away for a year. They seem to be all the rage over on the RC51 forums. I had been gently warned of the potential tuning consequences, but I was not heeding the advice of the old sages (I say old, in terms of wisdom), because so many people over there have been talking about how great they are. My first warning was when I couldn’t get either of two highly reputable tuners interested in getting the thing mapped.
I got it all installed, looked at how poor the seal was with the fuel tank, realizing that fuel mixture is based upon the accuracy of the airflow calculation. I looked at the changed orientation of the barometric pressure sensor in the snorkel, the overall poor construction and decided the old sages were right again. So I am installing the stock airbox and intake snorkel, with some minor modifications. I have a good map for that. I should have listened in the first place.
So, once again, I am sorry to have been too outspoken and to have at times spoken over my head. I really enjoy the community of people here and I love talking about motorcycles. I’m going to sit back and take it all in for a while. I’m going to go out and burn up some gas and tires. I’ll put a few things in here and there, and put up some track day reports. I hope that I have passed on some useful information along the way.
It’s about time to go and ride! Hard to go ride, when the corn snow is so good, though…
Cheers, y’all.
Thanks for listening.
RC
I want to issue a public apology for my antics here on the Super Hawk forum. I have been far too outspoken in my responses to the discussions here and at times I have spoken beyond my experience and knowledge level. Part of this is due to a desire for interaction with members of the motorcycling community, but nothing to ride. Another part is that I am not a good desk person, I’m and even worse hotel room person and I look for an escape from the tedium. But that has gotten out of hand and excessive, due to a basic lack of mental discipline. I get a lot of enjoyment from the shared enthusiasm here. The other part, is because I have had a situation where I have been patiently tutored and mentored in the ways of Honda V-twin sport bikes, through a long series of question/answer sessions, over the last 8-10 years. Not because I’m anybody special, it’s just been an opportunity that has arisen through circumstance.
I have been fascinated and have tried to ask intelligent questions (with some success). My mentor has appreciated my fascination, diligence and hard work in applying his advice. It has been hugely rewarding for me and I know that he has enjoyed watching me progress as well. The technical level of our discussions has gotten more advanced over time. Any time I have gone away, wondering if I agree with the advice or the explanation I’ve been given, or tried something contrary to it, I have gone away and eventually ended up understanding the underlying wisdom that led to that piece of advice, in the first place. There is no substitute for wisdom gained through experience.
I have at times, stepped beyond my level of experience or knowledge here on the forum, in my enthusiasm and desire to enter into a technical discussion about motorcycles. That kind of stuff is at the core of who I am and the way my mind works. Many times, a question has been asked, which I have asked and received an answer to in the past. I have tried to relay the answer and my underlying interpretation as accurately and completely as possible. These have mostly involved engine modifications, and to a lesser degree suspension and chassis setup.
The engine stuff is pretty straightforward. It requires a high degree of mechanical aptitude, a lot of patience and attention to detail. Most of the advice that I was given, when building my engines, was based upon the knowledge that I was doing the work by myself, in my garage/shop with a good set of basic tools, a few specialized tools, a good understanding of machining and manufacturing procedures, a lot of internal motivation and a limited budget.
If some of the advice I have relayed has seemed like a shortcut, it’s because it was something that a hobby builder at my level could omit, without significant consequences, but with an understanding of the compromise involved. I have grown to understand these compromises better as time goes on, and my experience increases. A big budget race project is a lot different than a hobbyist project. There is a lot of room in-between, depending on your particular goals and how much farming out of precision work you want to do and pay for.
The other discussions I tend to enter are those related to suspension. I like to talk about this stuff because writing is a good way to organize your thoughts. It helps me to develop my understanding. I can’t claim to be an expert on any level. I think I have come across as trying to be, but that is certainly not the case. I talk about it, because I’m trying to understand it. I am drawn to the challenge of it. That’s why I like to get into these discussions. But I have come to realize that I need to talk less and listen more. I will gain a better understanding as I get more seat time. It is technical enough that it’s difficult to get your mind around, especially when you can’t apply it to a riding situation. I’ve missed 3 seasons of riding. It seems like more. That is about to change.
The most important things to put into your motorcycle are fuel and tires. Modifications are fun and entertaining, if you like that sort of thing. But I have come to realize that I have been placing too much emphasis on the modifications. It’s been winter and a long wait to get this thing on the track.
For example, I was going to install an airbox and ram-air snorkel that I had stored away for a year. They seem to be all the rage over on the RC51 forums. I had been gently warned of the potential tuning consequences, but I was not heeding the advice of the old sages (I say old, in terms of wisdom), because so many people over there have been talking about how great they are. My first warning was when I couldn’t get either of two highly reputable tuners interested in getting the thing mapped.
I got it all installed, looked at how poor the seal was with the fuel tank, realizing that fuel mixture is based upon the accuracy of the airflow calculation. I looked at the changed orientation of the barometric pressure sensor in the snorkel, the overall poor construction and decided the old sages were right again. So I am installing the stock airbox and intake snorkel, with some minor modifications. I have a good map for that. I should have listened in the first place.
So, once again, I am sorry to have been too outspoken and to have at times spoken over my head. I really enjoy the community of people here and I love talking about motorcycles. I’m going to sit back and take it all in for a while. I’m going to go out and burn up some gas and tires. I’ll put a few things in here and there, and put up some track day reports. I hope that I have passed on some useful information along the way.
It’s about time to go and ride! Hard to go ride, when the corn snow is so good, though…
Cheers, y’all.
Thanks for listening.
RC
03-30-2009, 02:22 PM
#2
Senior Member
SuperSport
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Central Fl.
Posts: 530
Dude, if that's as bad as it gets for you, yer doin' pert good. Wish I had a dollar for every bone headed modification I tried over the years, be on a new sled right now. No one ever died from just listening to advice, good or bad, it just gets expensive.
And...if i cast out every friend who gave me bad advice over the years, I'd be lonely during the Superbowl and still unmarried.
Man, if there's room on this couch for me, then there is certainly room for you. You have entertainment factor.
And...if i cast out every friend who gave me bad advice over the years, I'd be lonely during the Superbowl and still unmarried.
Man, if there's room on this couch for me, then there is certainly room for you. You have entertainment factor.
03-30-2009, 04:09 PM
#3
Senior Member
SuperBike
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: MN
Posts: 1,548
rand that seems like a lot of agonizing. I don't know what the details were but its pretty rare where a simple sorry won't get past a misunderstanding, at least among true friends. You're probably being too hard on yourself. I don't recall reading any inputs from you that could ever be interpreted other than trying to be helpful.
03-30-2009, 04:32 PM
#4
Senior Member
MotoGP
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Way Out West
Posts: 2,547
Seen a few things you've posted on tech stuff I disagreed with and thought a bit off the mark, but nothing offensive. Don't know who you think you've pissed off. On political, philosophical stuff alone I'd bet a fat roll of bills I've annoyed and pissed off more people than you have. Maybe I missed something, but I don't know what you're apologizing for.
03-30-2009, 04:59 PM
#5
Senior Member
SuperBike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
Posts: 1,689
All good. I appreciate the responses.
I sometimes feel like I put so much into making a clear argument and explanation of my perspective, that I come off as arrogant, or more knowledgable than the next guy. It's definitely not the case. A lot of the time, I'm trying to make it more clear to myself.
There's a lot of good knowledge, experience and enthusiasm here. I'm just going to do more listening and less talking.
Bike's about done. Time to ride. Oh except the next track day is on Easter. Maybe I should just go. We're going to Hawaii after that. Yeah, I think I should... go see my parents and roost around Thunderhill, or head up and ride with the gang at Reno-Fernley. Could this really be happening?
I sometimes feel like I put so much into making a clear argument and explanation of my perspective, that I come off as arrogant, or more knowledgable than the next guy. It's definitely not the case. A lot of the time, I'm trying to make it more clear to myself.
There's a lot of good knowledge, experience and enthusiasm here. I'm just going to do more listening and less talking.
Bike's about done. Time to ride. Oh except the next track day is on Easter. Maybe I should just go. We're going to Hawaii after that. Yeah, I think I should... go see my parents and roost around Thunderhill, or head up and ride with the gang at Reno-Fernley. Could this really be happening?
03-30-2009, 05:05 PM
#6
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
I can only chime in with the above... I'm not an expert in any field concerning motorcycles... I can do basic maintenance and I have been slowly getting to the point where I really don't need to take my bike to the shop if I don't want to...
I know very little about engine work, some little more on suspension and the simple parts of the mechanics involved in it...
It doesn't stop me from taking part in conversations though... Part of learning is sharing information... Doesn't mean you have to be an expert...
One field I do have extensive knowledge in is electronics, although more as a circuit designer than the type found on bikes... And I have long since found that I usually learn more from trying to explain something to a only slightly less knowledgeable person, than when trying to grasp a new concept for myself...
As for politics... Well, my record kinda speaks for itself... I tend to **** people of at a surprising speed...
Oh... and bonehead modifications... Don't get me started... I can write you a list longer than my arm...
So, hopefully you will keep being part of the discussions... Don't need to be any kind of expert to share information... And I'm pretty sure anybody here knows that they have to at the very least verify informations to some extent themselves... Not saying you are giving false information! It's just common sense... I share information and discuss it, but I always try to verify... At least before entrusting my life to anything...
I know very little about engine work, some little more on suspension and the simple parts of the mechanics involved in it...
It doesn't stop me from taking part in conversations though... Part of learning is sharing information... Doesn't mean you have to be an expert...
One field I do have extensive knowledge in is electronics, although more as a circuit designer than the type found on bikes... And I have long since found that I usually learn more from trying to explain something to a only slightly less knowledgeable person, than when trying to grasp a new concept for myself...
As for politics... Well, my record kinda speaks for itself... I tend to **** people of at a surprising speed...
Oh... and bonehead modifications... Don't get me started... I can write you a list longer than my arm...
So, hopefully you will keep being part of the discussions... Don't need to be any kind of expert to share information... And I'm pretty sure anybody here knows that they have to at the very least verify informations to some extent themselves... Not saying you are giving false information! It's just common sense... I share information and discuss it, but I always try to verify... At least before entrusting my life to anything...
03-30-2009, 05:29 PM
#7
Senior Member
SuperBike
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: moncton nb canada
Posts: 1,269
wow. that's the longest post i have ever read on any forum.
don't beat yourself up too much.
you'll forget and move on. eventually you'll offend someone else and feel like this again. then you'll do it again. and again. happens to me all the time!!!
life moves forward and you will to too.
i must say the superhawk forum is the best one i've ever been on. this post is an example of the mature people here.
don't beat yourself up too much.
you'll forget and move on. eventually you'll offend someone else and feel like this again. then you'll do it again. and again. happens to me all the time!!!
life moves forward and you will to too.
i must say the superhawk forum is the best one i've ever been on. this post is an example of the mature people here.
03-30-2009, 06:13 PM
#8
Senior Member
MotoGP
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Clemente, CA
Posts: 3,451
Hey, it's all about sharing here. Sharing information, knowledge, experiences and opinions (sometimes those **** some people off). That's the reason I joined the Forum after lurking for a few years. But I wouldn't expect anybody's technical input to be 100%. Given that, I appreciate all input when I have a question, but nobody is twisting my arm to follow that information. That is my decision.
There is tons of good information as well as entertainment to be had here. I hope you can reconcile your friendship.
There is tons of good information as well as entertainment to be had here. I hope you can reconcile your friendship.
03-30-2009, 06:32 PM
#9
Member
Squid
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Stationed in Beaufort, SC
Posts: 89
Dude I own another V bulletin local performance forum for where I'm at. I wish I could get half the tech information that's posted on this site onto mine. Kinda hard though since it's a multiplatform site for my local area.
I've learned a ton about my new toy from this site and this site alone. Theres tech information for miles, some of which you've provided. HOWEVER I don't think people would automatically assume that all tech information posted on this site is going to be 100% dead on. I know I wouldn't. If the person seeking advice vaules their ride, they won't let this site or any other site be a one stop shop of tech information. Best believe I would be gathering data from about 10 sites and probably a certified Honda dealer before I began to tackle a project out of my comfort zone.
If you may have given out some false information, that sucks and you're absolutely right, you probably could have kept your mouth shut and probably saved someone some time and money in the long run, but thats half the fun. You have to get into a project and find out for yourself, take what you've gotten from all of your sources and decypher it from there. Make a plan of attack and hope it's the right one. If someone messed their bike up because of you that's their own fault for doing something so far fetched off of advice from one website on the internet.
There is a lesson to be learned here people, no 1 person on this site or the internet can solve all of your problems. DO RESEARCH!!
And RCVTR, don't beat yourself up dude, **** can and will happen to the best of us.
Keep your head up.
I've learned a ton about my new toy from this site and this site alone. Theres tech information for miles, some of which you've provided. HOWEVER I don't think people would automatically assume that all tech information posted on this site is going to be 100% dead on. I know I wouldn't. If the person seeking advice vaules their ride, they won't let this site or any other site be a one stop shop of tech information. Best believe I would be gathering data from about 10 sites and probably a certified Honda dealer before I began to tackle a project out of my comfort zone.
If you may have given out some false information, that sucks and you're absolutely right, you probably could have kept your mouth shut and probably saved someone some time and money in the long run, but thats half the fun. You have to get into a project and find out for yourself, take what you've gotten from all of your sources and decypher it from there. Make a plan of attack and hope it's the right one. If someone messed their bike up because of you that's their own fault for doing something so far fetched off of advice from one website on the internet.
There is a lesson to be learned here people, no 1 person on this site or the internet can solve all of your problems. DO RESEARCH!!
And RCVTR, don't beat yourself up dude, **** can and will happen to the best of us.
Keep your head up.
03-30-2009, 07:13 PM
#11
Senior Member
MotoGP
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 4,138
I think you short change your depth and contribution to this forum.
You think you've offended some people here? I follow this all pretty close. No seh!
The older you get and the more experienced you become - you naturally gravitate away from the newbie conversations and concentrate closer to your personal interests.
I have offended probably everyone here at one point or another. Mostly chiding brothers but occasionally going to far. Everybody forgives **** like that because we all have a little of it in us. Good for you!
Keep building your project and start taking more pictures and worrying less about the spilled milk - if it's brake fluid clean it up - but the other **** - shake it off.
Last edited by nuhawk; 03-30-2009 at 07:19 PM.
03-30-2009, 08:52 PM
#12
evil man of nothing
MotoGP
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Boynton Beach, FL
Posts: 4,484
I'm sure there are other folks that have come and gone on here who are way more in need of giving apologies than you are. I'm sure it's all good. I do agree with the comment about modifications though. I do sometimes think that there is too much of an emphasis placed on having the craziest mods. It has caused me to have an otherwise mint low mileage bike apart on the floor for two years chasing this ideal of having a modded bike like no one elses and then getting caught up with a bunch of incompetent wannabe fabricators/idiots who take my money but dont provide me with **** that fits. Gas and tires for sure...and maybe slip ons 
and get out and ride the thing. Honestly next time I'll just ride the wheels off the superhawk as is and keep the damn ZX12.
and get out and ride the thing. Honestly next time I'll just ride the wheels off the superhawk as is and keep the damn ZX12.
03-31-2009, 08:10 AM
#13
Senior Member
SuperBike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
Posts: 1,689
It was all just internet paranoia. But hey, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean people AREN'T out to get you.
These were thoughts I've had for a while. I'm glad I got it off my chest. Ready to take a new approach and ready to F#%in' RIDE! I guess it's only been 2 seasons I've missed. I fell down in Sept. '06
I got a beautiful set of bodywork last night. Much better thatn expected. Just need to paint the tank to match.
These were thoughts I've had for a while. I'm glad I got it off my chest. Ready to take a new approach and ready to F#%in' RIDE! I guess it's only been 2 seasons I've missed. I fell down in Sept. '06
I got a beautiful set of bodywork last night. Much better thatn expected. Just need to paint the tank to match.
03-31-2009, 08:15 AM
#14
mildly retarded
SuperBike
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,278
I'm guilty of the same stuff too RC, I get excited and talk over my head sometimes. I don't think I've upset anyone though, and I can't remember any of your posts doing it either. Although Inderocker sent me some PM's saying I was too negative in some of the classified threads?
..... da gubament did it!
..... da gubament did it!
03-31-2009, 11:03 AM
#15
Senior Member
Superstock
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 342
Seems like the people here aren't offended at all. I know EXACTLY How you feel though, I was excommunicated from my favorite forum. 
Glad nobody hates you. 
Glad nobody hates you.
Last edited by maverick; 03-31-2009 at 11:35 AM.
03-31-2009, 02:38 PM
#18
Senior Member
Back Marker
Back Marker
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Russell, Bay of Islands, New Zealand
Posts: 229
RC, we old grey guys know that experience is defined as having done it wrong the first time. (That's just something you learn with experience.) And another thing you learn with experience is that no-one ever knows it all.
I echo the others in saying that you should not be hard on yourself.
We have a forum in NZ that is so full of garbage from people who are wilfully ignorant that we aged sages call it "Kiddibiker".
And one thing's for sure - you've not been wilfully ignorant.
Cease the introspection - go for some rides, mate.
Cheers
Pete
I echo the others in saying that you should not be hard on yourself.
We have a forum in NZ that is so full of garbage from people who are wilfully ignorant that we aged sages call it "Kiddibiker".
And one thing's for sure - you've not been wilfully ignorant.
Cease the introspection - go for some rides, mate.
Cheers
Pete
03-31-2009, 03:02 PM
#19
Senior Member
SuperBike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
Posts: 1,689
I'm over it. Learned a bunch in the process.
One thing I know is, it's hard to know what you don't know. Sometimes you just think you know and don't know it. I'm gettin ready to ask some questions here and get back to learnin'
It still doesn't make any noise when I twist the throttle, but damn, it's close.
One thing I know is, it's hard to know what you don't know. Sometimes you just think you know and don't know it. I'm gettin ready to ask some questions here and get back to learnin'
It still doesn't make any noise when I twist the throttle, but damn, it's close.
04-01-2009, 12:25 AM
#20
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
Nah... get some seat time and get the bugs out of your system... Damn 3 years without a bike... I'd be a regular at the funny farm by then...
04-01-2009, 05:17 AM
#21
Fastest Color
SuperBike
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lithia, FL
Posts: 2,091
04-01-2009, 11:28 PM
#22
Administrator
World Champion
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Fulton, MO
Posts: 105,287
I go away for a couple days..... What the hell did I miss? I are confused!
Well, whatever it is about, or whomever had an issue, I hope that it's resolved. And I can tell you that I'm sure the vast majority of members here don't feel that way.
I've always considered you one of the more level-headed people here, with a good understanding of most things, and you're posts are always fair to others.
Well, whatever it is about, or whomever had an issue, I hope that it's resolved. And I can tell you that I'm sure the vast majority of members here don't feel that way.
I've always considered you one of the more level-headed people here, with a good understanding of most things, and you're posts are always fair to others.
