r80gsman

i searched a bit. on here because i remember reading about another Manual CCT other than APE... i think i found them on ebay.. they are CRUs. they look about he same as the APE but appears to be a design difference in the housing where the lock nut is and the lock nut is a not a locking kind. is the guy that these come from on here and any advice on which is better if it is at all.. i am in the market.. just can't get it out my mind....

not a CCT thread it is a product discussion!

Old Yeller

how many miles on your bike and/or what's your reason for going manual? I guess this might turn into a debate thread, but I'm not sold on the need at this point. I've ridden the crap out of my hawk on the track for over a year now, and not getting any noises or indications of a problem. Perhaps I'll find out the bad way.

lazn

That is because you get no warning. Zero Zip Nada. Your warning sign is a loud bang followed by clang clang clang and a dead engine. And mileage is not a factor, some have had them die with under 6000 miles on the bike, and others at over 50k miles.

If it isn't replaced it might eventually happen. It's like insurance, sure you can drive without it in some states, but that doesn't make it smart.

My view is: why risk a destroyed motor for a ~$130 part. (APES were $110 when I got them) Or if you make your own a $6 part. (carriage bolt, lock nut, drill and tap stock CCT)

lazn

A bolt is a bolt, and so long as it isn't made of grade 1 potmetal and the aluminum part holds it close enough to the right place that the bolt hits the chain slider then I don't really see any difference between them other than anodizing.

r80gsman

old yeller

well, i am not sold on the issue either, a long time private honda mechanic that i trust, is not sold either. he seams to think it is a case of "hurt dog yelps the loudest" and over revving. i can honestly say that my f3 didn't break but i never over revved it or hit the rev limiter.. the only reason i would put manuals in. is it is 100$ of insurance. i do not like the idea of adjustment... even though it is not hard. the autos are more expensive and have the same rep.

as far as a debate i am ok with that. however, when i searched i can not seem to find any debate theads for the "cause" of OEM(which i know mathematically there are thousands of people riding OEMs). there are plenty of "Manual CCT or reap the consequences". there really is no way to get a grasp on CCT breakage, just change them. due to mathematical/scientific laws there has to be a commonality for breakage, a common denominator if you will. the spring and the plungers are used in other bikes CCT which mean there are hundreds of thousands of manufacturing Numbers. another question is how many honda owners that are ignorant of this "problem" have had it break? i would be interested in the Honda #s on this, not as a deciding factor but knowledge. i have heavy knowledge on the BMW boxer rear drive failures and that company has the numbers and a fix for it.. i would be interested in how many CCTs have they sold since 98 and valve,heads,gaskets, ect. also are they still using the same design. those numbers exist do to production productivity and parts demand.

another question might be. how many breakage on models with low miles compared to the year of the bike.. I.E. like a 98 with 16k on it, that is low millage. that is 1300 miles a year. that is a lot of sitting. do the bikes with high mile ever broke one? i don't ride much and put 6k at least a year on my bikes. most i ride with put 10k+ on a bike a year.

a used good motor is around 600$?? is it worth it. say i ride my 32k(my mileage) hawk a year and disaster strikes. buy a motor, fit with new oem CCTS and ride it for ?? years. if the average is 30k and 12years for breakage then it would cost me about a -1000$ every 5yrs to ride the hawk. even if you spent 2k$ for a complete rebiuld every 5yrs. that is cheep.(400$ a year to ride)

r80gsman

my thinking as well..

thanks

lazn

Here is less than 1 page worth of search results for actual CCT failures: (search term "bent valves") There were plenty more to be found..

https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ht=valves+bent
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ht=valves+bent
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ht=valves+bent
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ht=valves+bent
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ht=valves+bent
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ht=valves+bent
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ht=valves+bent
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ht=valves+bent
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ht=valves+bent
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ht=valves+bent
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ht=valves+bent
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ht=valves+bent

Why risk even $600 for a used motor (and those are not always easy to find) much less $2000 and the time and hassle of fixing it for a: $6 or even a $200 part?

Old Yeller

Good thoughts. the part I struggle with is not being able to make any quantitative dicisions about it. I wonder if some type of routine maintenance or cleaning of the stock unit would improve the life of it. There's so many factors it's tough to know, and the idea of a $100 insurance policy isn't such a bad idea. I even like the $6 insurance policy better....but I'm cheap!

lazn

Here ya go: https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...09&postcount=5

Cheap, easy, permanent. (just be sure to only ever remove the CCTs only at TDC to prevent timing chain slip)

And as for adjusting the manual CCTs, I have yet to hear of anyone actually needing to do it. Check them at the same time you check your valve clearances and I doubt they will need adjusting, but if so, do it then.

Old Yeller

check valve clearances?

r80gsman

i read most of those threads posted... not wanting to discuss weather or not to replace them that has been beat to death..

more like idle chatting about statistics and product reviews. with a little of what are the real costs of CCT failures... motors rarity is not a concern i found no less than 10, one of which i am going to buy, not a 600$ but the whole wrecked bike for less... just to have a motor in the shop for parts or use or a buddy in need of a swap. i love the bike only would trade it for a vfr, ducs are out of price range.. i like parts anyhow....

i have a shop that works on old MCs and cars, so i am fluent in CCT installs, valves, timing, ect.

like is said, i would take a proven "insurance" for 100$, i would make them my self but i can not find a OEM set for cheep, most want 50+ for the use pair.... go figure. i can get grade 8/10 large allen head bolts that would work brilliant or carriage ss in metric. there is a good thread on specs for making your own here someweres..

is it the end of the world if one doesn't change them, probability(mathematically) says no, should not break,, insurance(manual) = even less likely to malfunction. never riding the bike= even more less likely to malfunctions... cost of failure, more of a pain in the arss over time of a fixed motor than an expense, in my book.

so i am changing mine when i get to it... gotta check with gary to see if he has APEs in stock.... or if someone here want to cheaply supply a set of used oems to the use of scientific/fabrication. other wise CRUs are 100$

lazn

solid lifter buckets not hydraulic so you have to check your valves and shim the buckets every ~12k miles (I forget the exact miles) this is normal maintenance for basically any performance motorcycle.

nath981

you can wait to see what happens, you can either buy apes or oem replacements or this:

https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ad.php?t=22711

naturally the spring thing seems to be optimum in my head, buffering vs solid, but is catastrophic failure worth it for out of warranty, out of money, or just for peace of mind/ That's for you to decide. We're all here for statistical reference in a way, so we can and do benefit from the experiences of others.

r80gsman

that is one of the treads, there is another that directs the carriage bolt install.

i think for every one that has broken theirs, there is a "i beat the **** out of my bike on the track and never had a problem" story. along with " what?, i did not even know there was a problem" . i too think the spring tension CCTs are optimal due to the variation of conditions. wish there was a fail safe. (that was not ridiculous to make)

Furrybiker

For a cheap replacement try a search on the UK site http://www.haymouth.co.uk/phpBB3/vie...hp?f=31&t=3179
the important part of the thread is few pages in. This creates a self adjusting CCT that cannot totally fail, allegedly!

ripvanwinkle

Furrybikers link doesn't work for me, so here it is:-
http://www.haymouth.co.uk/phpBB3/

This is the guy selling manual CCT's:-
http://www.haymouth.co.uk/phpBB3/vie...hp?f=8&t=17053

Furrybiker

That is not the one I meant I have now edited the post to show the right one sorry guys....

98VTRrider

I wouldn't recommend using these CCT's. I had fitment problems and had to modify both to make them fit. I'm also having significant leakage from the rear CCT, always has a drip on it, and covers the swingarm pretty fast.

Below are the messages exchanged about the fitment problem, I've been meaning to write him asking about the leaking problem. He says "I not sure if there is a difference between european models and US", "I do regret any problems you had and hope you understand that there may be slight differences between countries"

Is that possible? I highly doubt that there is a manufacturing difference between U.S. and European models, with two different CCT's...

I choose the CCT's from Rider One A Storm because of the price and I liked the color more than what APE offers. If I were to do it over again I would modify the OEM CCT and save my money for other things

saige

I ordered from the same guy,i got mine on without a problem,but i did have a leaking issue too.
he wrote me and told me that all i needed was some gasket sealer.the blue rubber gasket sealer/maker.
in order to fix the leak,you will have to take the cct off.you will need a new gasket.
make sure you take it off the correct way,do not move the or unlock the screw or nut,take it out with it locked.once you get the cams and such in the right position.slowly unscrew the cct from its place,unscrew each bolt a couple of turns at a time.do not unscrew one out and than the other,its still under tension and could skip time.
once you get the cct out.clean it very good,measure the length of the screw that goes to the inside of the motor,and if possible,mark it with a marker or something.
after that,than you can unlock it,bring the nut all the way up and the little oring on it.turn the screw about 7 to 10 turns out.put a good amout of the blue stuff where the nut and oring would go when tightened.start turning it back slowly close to its marked position but not all the way so you have room to put the cct back on.
put the cct back on in the same manner as taking it off.at this point you shouldnt be to far from its origanal position.put everything back the way it was,lock it down,button it up and let it sit for 24hrs.a minimum of 12 to 14 hrs.this will stop the leak,i did that to mine and not a problem since.

r80gsman

i emailed greg, he said he would have another shipment of APEs in wed. he had shiped the last two friday...

D VTR RIDER

Before installing the APE's, drill a small hole at the corner of the bolt adjuster and once installed, lock wire the adjuster to a nearby part. I had an adjuster back off with devastating results i.e. bent valves. It cost me approximately $300.00 for new valves, gaskets and 3 angle valve seat. Luckily no other damage.
Now someone will say they weren't tighten to start with but I'm quite certain they were. Regardless, lock wiring is cheap insurance.

r80gsman

so, devils advocate.., so...this means that manual CCts can fail also, interesting. i wander what the percentage is?

Tweety

r80gsman... I'm too lazy to quote... But there is a reason you get an answer similar to the one you got, from a lot of good Honda mechanics... It's simply because the design of the CCT's on the VTR is exactly the same as on two or three dozens of other Honda models... And neither of these will if the CCT fails have a reaction more severe than some awfull noise while riding... The failure on all these models is completely "harmless", as in you get lots of noise and unless you deliberately flog the bike while the CCT is already failed, it won't blow up...

The VTR is unique in alot of ways... One of the bad ways is the fact that a CCT failure means an almost total engine failure...


As for this... Well, pretty low...

But the thing is, both the APE and whatever else you found uses one nut... This is bad because it can rattle loose... You can lock it using a safetywire, but then you cant adjust more than ½ turns after that unless you want to make new holes, which is a bad idea...

I used two nut's on my DIY version... One being a normal one and one being a nyloc locknut... Once adjusted, tighten the locknut down to the normal one... I'll bet you my engine that those won't come loose from vibration... As amatter of fact, I have done just that...

r80gsman

on the double nut issue,, one could wrap a wire in the treads or as i have done be for on similar things. is high temp tape it, the nut can't move after it is tighted . i run a tape layer around the threaded part then include the nut. if it could move it could not move much.

i could not help my self with the comment about the failure rate of manual ccts. ...

if honda would have designed of a one gear cam with the other running off it, i thing it would run with a loose chain.. i can not remember off hand the design of the others i.e. f3 and so on..

because i can not find a oem set for cheap to make some of my own manuals i am going to order APEs from greg. (i think that is his name) on tues/wed.

Tweety

Well... The reason is simple at the basic level... The VTR does not have a common crank/camshaft for all pistons like the IL4 engines... Ie fubar if the CCT goes...

If you consider the shipping from Sweden cheap enough, I have an unmolested set of stock one's on a shelf... Cover shipping and they are yours...

r80gsman

pm'd you