SuperBlink

Wonderful! I'm now wondering if i bought a bike that the CCT or r/r went out on right away... Here's what happened, hopefully you all can help me diagnose the issue as i just bought the bike on 12/31! And as some of you may have read I kind of have big plans for the bike. Now that this has happened I'm wondering wtf is going on???


Anyhow, I wake up and get ready excited to spend another day on my bike zipping around the city, found an arai for $140 I was going to go pick up and so I hop on the freeway and accelerate through the gears, as soon as I hit 6th gear the bike starts to almost shudder because of loss of power, it felt like I was running out of gas so I down shift for more power to get to the side of the road and as I'm down shifting trying to keep power to get over to the side, the engine oil light comes on and the motor dies. Now it won't go into any gear except back and forth between two (I don't know which two) gears and when the key is turned to the on position the oil light comes on and nothing else... Please tell me it's something cheap and easy to fix and I didn't buy a bike that I now have to replace to motor on...

Thanks guys-
Blink

Tweety

Sorry, by the description it does not necessarily sound easy nor cheap to fix...

The thing is, not being able to shift gears says it's not the R/R or anything else electrical... And electrical problems while annoying are usually not to expensive to fix...

Can you get the rearwheel suspended and find out if you can roll the wheel freely while in one of the unknown gears? That will give us some more to go on...

Also, what maintainance have you done on the bike... Ie, oilchange, and so on... (And I do mean you, whatever the previous owner did or didn't do is considered unknow or suspect until it's verified and should be ignored...)

SuperBlink

I know I can roll it when the clutch is depressed in either of the two gears... Or what I might think feels like only two gears, I'm a little doubtful it's just two gears, but it surely isn't the entire range of gears that's for sure. No way to suspend the rear end at this point though...

Anyway, I was lucky enough to bribe a tow truck driver to get it home and in the process I rolled it around a bunch with the clutch in... Not sure if that helps?

Tweety

Well, the clutch works then, as per your description...

Unfortunately it doesn't tell us if the bike is actually stuck in gear, meaning the gearbox is fubar or if the engine is siezed, ie the CCT's failed and killed off the top end...

Try downshifting a bunch of times, if the gearbox is OK, you will end up in first gear, then some finesse is needed to hit neutral while the engine isn't running... I'm unsure if the gauges are completely dead, or it's just that it won't start? Ie will the neutral light work or not?

SuperBlink

I'll go try it again right now... when I first lost power on the freeway and got it to the side it struck me as weird that i couldn't get it into N so I played around a bunch with it, both with my foot and my hand, clutch, clutch out... It seems to just go up one and come back down, N is no where to be found, at the time.

I'll be back in 5 or 10 minutes, basically I'm just looking for N, right?

kai ju

How is the oil level ?
Also, you may not be as stuck in gear as you think. Constant mesh transmissions aren't happy to go through the gears unless the shafts are moving. Have you tried to shift while rolling the bike back and forth ? Just keep pressure on the shift lever as you roll the bike, as soon as the gear dogs line up it will engage, then try again.
I don't think I've ever heard of a transmission failure on a VTR so that's in your favor.
The oil light will come on when the engine dies because the pump is no longer turning either. If the light had come on with the engine still running then you'd have a real problem.

r80gsman

dump the oil into a clean container so it can be inspected... the filter can be examined also by prying the top off to expose the paper inside... the oil will tell u a bit of what is going on inside... i.e. metal flakes, metalic color(bearings).. take the stator cover off. a rare occurrence but they can come apart and lock a motor down (temperarily) untill you can get the pieces out the way.. would also account for electric shutdown and oil light. check the start to make sure it is not frozen, it is direct drive.

if it were the CCT there would have been alot of noise and alot of metal banging..

need to find out if it is the transmission or the motor. if it is stuck in gear and will roll with the clutch pulled then tape or ty the clutch leaver to handle bar then remove the large allen bolt from the crankcase cover on the same side of the bike. get a 17mm socket and rachet turn the motor over anti- clockwise or counter clockwise.. this is important that u rotate it this dirrection... if it moves but is difficult(no plugs removed so compression will be felt) your motor should be ok and then investigate the trans and clutch. the right side(throttle side) case can be removed to inspect the clutch.

SuperBlink

Jesus, I should have read the paperwork he gave me more closely. I just looked at the suggestion of one of his texts at the dyno chart to see when it was last tuned up, and also when it was jetted. Back in 03, when the bike had a mere 9300 miles on it, but he handed me the paperwork like HE had it done. What a scammer. I'm an ******* for not looking more closely at the dates/mileage on the dyno chart.... This is the price I pay....

SuperBlink

Oil's full, but dirty. I knew it needed changing, that was on my to do list today. Unfortunately, I don't have any tools right now... I'm going to go find N now using this technique. The more in depth testing requiring tools will have to be done tomorrow as I will need to go acquire tools. If you guys that are providing advice could help me come up with a list of tools to buy tomorrow and also let's put together a checklist of things I can go through to find out what's going on. I really appreciate all the help guys, I'm kind of devastated right now, but now anxious to find out what's going on and kind of excited to get a list of tools and a checklist to complete tomorrow. Off to see if I can find N.... Thanks again guys!

SuperBlink

OK! I got it into N and tapped the starter button. It wants to start and actually started to but the choke wasn't pulled out and I didn't want to break anything by starting it... Obviously this is good news?

Tweety

Um... yeah, but it's also confusing and it means we either are missing some pieces of the puzzle or you are holding out on some info...

How is the gauge? Lit up? everything working? No? if not give us complete info...

Now you are going to need to get the rearwheel of the ground, a buddy helping you, tilting it on the sidestand is the most basic way... With that turn the wheel in gear and you know if the engine is siezed or not...

SuperBlink

You're telling me it's confusing? Come on, I was just cruising down the freeway then this **** happens, now I can get it into N by rocking back and forth and when i tap the starter it acts like it would start? The green N light comes on, the red oil light comes on... Not trying to hold out on anything, just telling you how it happened as exactly as I possibly can...

Wouldn't the fact that when i tapped the starter it acted like it would start indicate that it's not seized?

SuperBlink

I am also scared to pull the choke and actually try to start it, what if it breaks something... Trying to find a buddy now to help see about spinning that rear tire...

r80gsman

have u isolated it to the motor, or dare i say fuel... fuel pump diaphragm. cloged fuel system(carb or line, or even tank filter. another is the slide diaphragms. it could have caused what u described and just coincidental that old/bad oil caused the shifting trouble.

if u have it turning over, i would do a full service on it, still look at the old oil though... before trying to run it. the motors are tough

SuperBlink

Is it safe to try and start it?

Tweety

You see the smilie? Humour...

Well, the confusing part was that you hadn't up to that time told me that the gauges worked normally...

So, now we have working gauges, and most likely an engine that isn't siezed... But yeah, confirming it by gently rolling the wheel of the ground is a considerably safer option than starting it... I'd probably leave the starter alone until all other options are checked...

SuperBlink

Sorry bro, really, my bad, under a bit of stress at the moment, saw the smiley but it didn't really register until you mentioned it... Makes sense with the starter.... I'll keep you guys updated on the spinning of the wheel. So if it's seized, what happens when I spin it? What if it's not seized? Any other options aside from fuel issue or engine seizure at this point guys?

PUSHrod

FUBAR "F***ed Up But All Right"
SNAFU "Situation Normal All F***ed Up"

Tweety, WWII acronyms are cool, just use 'em correctly. (I'm having an OCD day, sorry)

Superblink, we want to help you get back on the road but more info is needed. About the bike and you. For example, Can you do most of your own service? Do you have a meter and someplace to do diagnostics?

The most common fault for what you described is a battery that died for a lack of charge, or a failed internal cell. The Volt/Ohm meter will help you there. No meter? Okay, if there wasn't any horrible metallic noise coming from the engine when it died, and it wanted to start when you tried later, but failed to do so...

Try a jump start from an automotive battery, (the car engine must NOT be running when you do this), if she fires up and runs without making that horrible metallic noise, pull the bike battery and go get it load tested at an auto parts store (wal-mart ? and they sell bike batteries if your's is bad)

If the battery tests okay, then whats left is the charging system. Most common failure is the R/R unit. Secondary failure is the stator. #10 wrenches and screwdriver repair.

If you do get a horrible metallic noise on start up, yer frukked. CCT failure. Sorry. For that one you need a wife with the winning lotto ticket in her purse and an obsession for your body.

Tweety

Now, at this point we run into the problem of you having had the bike a very short time... These questions are a bit hard to answer if you haven't ridden the bike some miles...

Does the sidestand switch work, ie light on dash comes on, cuts engine if you forget the stand?

What voltage is the battery currently, while resting at? Is the condition unknown, probably good or probably bad? I'd do the parts of the R/R checks that can be done with the engine off, before ruling out the electrical system being the culprit as in low charge on the battery causing the cut-out...

How many tanks of gas have you run through it? Do you know if the tank is clean inside or full of gunk?

SuperBlink

Ok, so right now I've got look at the old oil and spin the rear... Also, since I'm looking at the oil, i'm going to change it, obviously.... Dumb question but how much oil does the hawk take?

Tweety

Acronyms aside... That's not a set of good advice... There is a reason I adviced above not to try and start it until he knows more...

If the CCT's have failed he know needs an semi-expensive re-build at this point... If he tries to start the engine with them failed, he makes that semi-expensive into very expensive... Gently rolling the wheel means you feel and hear the failure without making it very expensive...

SuperBlink

Didn't fail to start when i tried to do so, I backed off the starter not wanting to break anything if it did in fact start so i don't think it's the batteries...

In terms of what I can do, I'm what I would describe as mechanically inclined but untrained and for the most part have no experience doing major work on bikes. I don't really have a place so to speak to work on the bike, but I am enrolled in two classes, intro to motorcycle technology and general motorcycle mait which start on the 18th. I assume we'll have space and tools to do anything needed once I start class... However, with detailed instruction I can pull off just about anything and am overall a pretty sharp guy, 4.0 student at the moment... Anyhow, part of the reason I bought the bike was to learn how to work on it with the class and to eventually to a total rebuild on my own... This series of events is just forcing me to start working on the bike sooner than I had planned...

Tweety

That and a lot of other info that will be usefull for the checks are in the service manual... Go download that, it will make your life easier... Sorry, but I can't quote the amount out of memory...

SuperBlink

Sidestand switch works properly.
Not sure on the voltage, however, can go buy a voltage meter tomorrow and check with a little help (I'm sure there's thread's already on the subject(s)?)...
Run three tanks through it so far, before me it was a daily driver. Looks like it was in generally sound condition drivetrain wise when I bought it, never heard anything that concerned me to a point where I didn't buy it, obviously... I usually am good about buying or not buying vehicles based on my feelings about a particular drivetrain...

SuperBlink

No problem. Thanks for all the help thus far

r80gsman

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperBlink
Ok, so right now I've got look at the old oil and spin the rear... Also, since I'm looking at the oil, i'm going to change it, obviously.... Dumb question but how much oil does the hawk take?


3.9 quarts with filter,
3.7 with out filter,

oil is your choice! if u are cheap, go to wal-mart. buy Rotella T6 5w-40 (has jaso ma rating)in the blue jug. 1gal. it will take all of it so it is a no brainer. will cost u 19.50$ most wal-marts will have the filter also. fram. look it up in the index at the store for the right one..should be a FRAM 6017a.

SuperBlink

Thanks guys... I'm gonna go for a little walk, get away from being depressed a bit... Anyhow, I'm going to go the cheap route until I get it back running again, no need to pour royal purple down the drain as I work through this thing.... Whew, what a shitty ******* day.

Tweety

Basically, if you can spin the wheel in gear and it's smooth, it should be safe to fire it up...

Then have a good look at the oil, swap it, and fire it up... At that point start making all the checks on the electrical system... At that point I agree with PUSHrod, battery and R/R are usually the cause of most electrical problems...

The reason I mentioned the sidestand is that it's been known to kill the engine or cause intermittent powerloss over bumps if it's worn/loose... Ie that and fuelsupply / clogged carbs becomes the suspect if all else checks out and it's running normally now...

I'm gonna go to bed in a minute or so, but there are a lot of others around, so I'll check back tomorrow...

SuperBlink

Thanks man, I'm gonna let it go for the day and start fresh on it in the am... I'll talk to you then, thanks for the help and have a good sleep...

steener

Pushrod.... You might want to check your acronym directory. FUBAR = F'd Up Beyond All Recognition or F'd Up By Army Regulations. F'd Up But All Right doesn't even make sense.

Tweety.... Thanks for taking the time for helping a forum member out.