Police Officer Shoots Unarmed 24 Year Old Motorcycle Rider In The Back
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,611
From: Belgium, WI
OK,
This is getting to be a little bit of a pissing match over "fallen brothers" and what not. You can try to protect the actions, or the right to actions, of your fellow officers, but I don't think that you want to defend this guy or the right to take actions like this. Speeding does not constitute a threat to the officer after the vehicle has been pulled over, i don't care what your book or training says. What I do know is that the officer had plenty of time to react in the case of this suspect pulling a weapon, probably in excess of 3 more seconds. My reasoning is this: 1. His lower half is on a bike, which limits his ability to make a full turn and acquire "his target"(the officer). 2. he is turning the long way towards the officer, further limiting his ability to turn. 3. He makes no attempt to stand up and maximize that ability to turn. 4. His elbow never moves in relationship to his midsection indicating a weapons draw. 5. From the time he starts to turn until the time he is shot is about 1 second, maybe less.
Look At the moment just before he is shot (attached pic) and tell me if you would have felt a threat that you wouldn't have been able to deal with 1-2 seconds later. The officer had already acquired his target, the suspect is facing the other direction, this is not excessive force. This is much beyond that. If I have offended you, then your vision on this topic is highly clouded.
This is getting to be a little bit of a pissing match over "fallen brothers" and what not. You can try to protect the actions, or the right to actions, of your fellow officers, but I don't think that you want to defend this guy or the right to take actions like this. Speeding does not constitute a threat to the officer after the vehicle has been pulled over, i don't care what your book or training says. What I do know is that the officer had plenty of time to react in the case of this suspect pulling a weapon, probably in excess of 3 more seconds. My reasoning is this: 1. His lower half is on a bike, which limits his ability to make a full turn and acquire "his target"(the officer). 2. he is turning the long way towards the officer, further limiting his ability to turn. 3. He makes no attempt to stand up and maximize that ability to turn. 4. His elbow never moves in relationship to his midsection indicating a weapons draw. 5. From the time he starts to turn until the time he is shot is about 1 second, maybe less.
Look At the moment just before he is shot (attached pic) and tell me if you would have felt a threat that you wouldn't have been able to deal with 1-2 seconds later. The officer had already acquired his target, the suspect is facing the other direction, this is not excessive force. This is much beyond that. If I have offended you, then your vision on this topic is highly clouded.
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 834
From: Nooksack WA
I'm extrapolating from the number of instances of excessive enforcement I have been exposed to through the media and other sources my entire life. Anecdotal evidence, if you please. Not unlike your own. You shouldn't take it personally, but you might wonder about the efficacy of the training for some fellow officers. Maybe there should be an adjustment of the psychological profile they look for in law enforcement. Locally, violence against officers took quite a spike. None of it is any more justifiable than the violence on the rider. Generally , it seems the victims , police and civilian, are the symbols of what the other side considers out of control forces. Seldom are the individuals that generate these feelings subjected to the consequences. The shootings of officers in Seattle and Tacoma as examples. Nobody wins if violence continues to escalate and since we can't force the bad guys into sensitivity training, we are forced to deal we the other side of the equation through training and the selection process to keep officers as safe as possible in an dangerous environment and protect the lives of unarmed citizens while said officers are going about their business. Be safe.
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 263
Where did you get your facts as to the the lack of training? Are you in Law Enforcement? What about excessive violence toward police? I have to train every month on policy reguarding the use of force.
Take a look at this.
http://www.odmp.org/year.php?year=2009&Submit=Go
47 shot and killed in 2009 alone 126 total.
Take a look at this.
http://www.odmp.org/year.php?year=2009&Submit=Go
47 shot and killed in 2009 alone 126 total.
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 530
From: Central Fl.
People in general are icky...
Cops are people.
Been around long enough to be rousted plenty of times by cops just power trippin' because they're bored, or have a social point to make, or the wifey didn't come through the previous night. Cops were special a**holes in the sixties during the social schism and they felt that they were the protectors of what was right and holy against the breakdown of the culture.
Long enough to look forward to each summons to jury duty.
Apparently others feel the same way. Cop got found GUILTY. The lesson here? Treat each interaction with a police officer as you would an unknown doberman off a leash.
Not enough of them are 9/11 heroes and not enough of them are willing to purge their own ranks of rot. In the meantime I don't trust until after the badge says to me, "That's all, sir, and have a good day."
Cops are people.
Been around long enough to be rousted plenty of times by cops just power trippin' because they're bored, or have a social point to make, or the wifey didn't come through the previous night. Cops were special a**holes in the sixties during the social schism and they felt that they were the protectors of what was right and holy against the breakdown of the culture.
Long enough to look forward to each summons to jury duty.
Apparently others feel the same way. Cop got found GUILTY. The lesson here? Treat each interaction with a police officer as you would an unknown doberman off a leash.
Not enough of them are 9/11 heroes and not enough of them are willing to purge their own ranks of rot. In the meantime I don't trust until after the badge says to me, "That's all, sir, and have a good day."
Boosted
SuperSport
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 642
From: Sioux Falls, SD
Wow, just ******* wow. So the guys blast off from a stop sign at about 3.5mins according to the video, at just over 4 mins the victim is stopped at a stop sign watching the other guy try to get control of his bike and then he gets one loud warning, turns to see what it is and gets popped in the back? That ******* "cop" deserves to be shot execution style.
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,452
From: San Clemente, CA
That sucks. 20 some years ago I was walking to my classroom to open it for my 1pm to 5pm Brake and Suspension class, when I saw one of my students being held at gunpoint by a Garden Grove PD officer. (He was a 17 year old blond kid with long hair riding his dad's yellow Moto Guzzi Le Mans to school) I said, "What's going on, he's my student". And the cop said, "Get out of the way". That's when I realized I was in the line of fire. I moved quickly behind the building.
Turns out a liquor store nearby had just been boosted by a guy who sped off on a yellow motorcycle...obviously not a Guzzi Le Mans. But he immediately had ordered my student to put his hands on the back of his head, get off the motorcycle and walk backwards towards him. My student did as asked, and fortunately was found to be a case of mistaken identity.
Looks like this cop didn't follow procedure, and he deserves everything he gets.
Turns out a liquor store nearby had just been boosted by a guy who sped off on a yellow motorcycle...obviously not a Guzzi Le Mans. But he immediately had ordered my student to put his hands on the back of his head, get off the motorcycle and walk backwards towards him. My student did as asked, and fortunately was found to be a case of mistaken identity.
Looks like this cop didn't follow procedure, and he deserves everything he gets.
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 310
this is local for me...biker was having relations with the guilty officers wife, i'm guessing that's why he shot the biker. didn't bother to read the rest of the thread buuuut i think the cop had intentions to shoot the biker for reasons that were personal.
JAMES
Superstock
Superstock
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 274
From: Toledo, OHIO
Whaaat?? With all the coverage I'v seen on this, thats the first time I'v heard that..
Senior Member
Back Marker
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 115
From: Upstate NY
Yes he sped away, yes he didn't follow instructions exactly, but does that justify the officer's actions? No way. While I do have a 4 year degree in criminal justice and numerous internships, ride alongs, etc, under my belt I think it's impossibile to hypothesize as to what went down and why. Looking at the video and reading the case transcript I have to agree with the majority of posters on this thread and say that the officer was in no way, shape, or form justified in using the force he did. There are always options, jumping to the last resort too hastily can lead to this; jail and loss of career for one man and an inabiltiy to use his legs for another man.
As an aside, I'm a 23 year old motorcyclist who always does his best to obey the laws and be courteous to police officers and the thought that I could get shot in the back by a rookie for something so simple is a scary thought indeed.
And @rackovanz, you can delete your posts...
As an aside, I'm a 23 year old motorcyclist who always does his best to obey the laws and be courteous to police officers and the thought that I could get shot in the back by a rookie for something so simple is a scary thought indeed.
And @rackovanz, you can delete your posts...
Senior Member
Back Marker
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 147
From: Minnesota
Just terrible situation. I think you have to put yourself in the jury box and think about what you just saw in that video and decide if you think based upon what we see on the video if the cop was justified and honestly, I just don't see it. I just don't see anything that would suggest that the cop was in danger or that the guy was making a move to threaten the cop. If I am on that jury, based upon looking at the video, I gotta believe the cop is guilty.
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,090
From: Big Lick
On the flip side, the motorcycle rider did nothing to remove himself from the situation either. While I don't condone the officer's actions, nor think it justified in hind sight, I'm amused at how Monday morning quarterbacking makes experts out of everyone.
If you're not a cop, and you've never been in this situation, then you really can only take an uneducated guess at what was going through the cop's mind, or what he saw that indicated a threat to him.
If you're not a cop, and you've never been in this situation, then you really can only take an uneducated guess at what was going through the cop's mind, or what he saw that indicated a threat to him.
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,216
From: Westerly, RI
Old Yeller, it's like DocPigskin just said 14 minutes before you, if you were on the jury, you have to do exactly what we've done here. Take into account the testimony and the video. Make your decision.
You can call it Monday Morning Quarterbacking if you like, but in theory, Doc is right, it's exactly what the Jury has to do, since they weren't present for the occasion in question.
I'm not a cop, but I've carried firearms, been thoroughly taught about the Use of Deadly Force and when it is authorized. So my summation isn't totally an uneducated guess.
He probably suffered from a pre-formed idea of what motorcyclists are supposed to be. Thought that all of us are Hells Angels, we all carry weapons and we all run from the law. I mean that is what all motorcyclists do right? Yourself included, right?
You can call it Monday Morning Quarterbacking if you like, but in theory, Doc is right, it's exactly what the Jury has to do, since they weren't present for the occasion in question.
I'm not a cop, but I've carried firearms, been thoroughly taught about the Use of Deadly Force and when it is authorized. So my summation isn't totally an uneducated guess.
He probably suffered from a pre-formed idea of what motorcyclists are supposed to be. Thought that all of us are Hells Angels, we all carry weapons and we all run from the law. I mean that is what all motorcyclists do right? Yourself included, right?
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,132
From: Phoenix, AZ
On the flip side, the motorcycle rider did nothing to remove himself from the situation either. While I don't condone the officer's actions, nor think it justified in hind sight, I'm amused at how Monday morning quarterbacking makes experts out of everyone.
If you're not a cop, and you've never been in this situation, then you really can only take an uneducated guess at what was going through the cop's mind, or what he saw that indicated a threat to him.
If you're not a cop, and you've never been in this situation, then you really can only take an uneducated guess at what was going through the cop's mind, or what he saw that indicated a threat to him.
If a paranoid schizophrenic shoots up a classroom is it ok because in his mind he was doing the right thing?
That is where a plea of insanity comes in, and instead of jail you go to an institution, but you still get off the streets.
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,090
From: Big Lick
Absolutely true Erik, and I agree with what you are saying. However, I've not seen all the court transcripts and testimony. I did see the video, and the ONLY part I could even speculate as a threat was at the last minute when the kid turned back around and you could see a hand movement around the bottom of his t-shirt. Perhaps that could be construed as the threat of a gun coming out, but that's sketchy at best.
I'm not saying this to offend you, but your training to carry does not give you experience in being in that specific situation with a fear of deadly force used against you, nor do you live in that world on a daily basis to understand the pressures cops are under.
Perhaps I'm just overly sensitive to the threats that cops have to live with day in and day out. Any time I am pulled over (which I have been), whether in the cage or bike, I always go out of my way to try to make the cop feel less at-risk for his life. For example, I ALWAYS place my hands firmly on the top of my steering wheel when the cop approaches. I never make any movements unless instructed. On the motorcycle, I'll turn off the bike and dismount, making sure my hands are in sight of the officer and make NO quick motions.
Don't confuse this with thinking the cop was justified. On the surface, I don't think he was either. I'm only thinking that there really isn't anyone totally innocent in this situation either and the bike rider putting the cop in that position was pretty stupid on his part.
I'm not saying this to offend you, but your training to carry does not give you experience in being in that specific situation with a fear of deadly force used against you, nor do you live in that world on a daily basis to understand the pressures cops are under.
Perhaps I'm just overly sensitive to the threats that cops have to live with day in and day out. Any time I am pulled over (which I have been), whether in the cage or bike, I always go out of my way to try to make the cop feel less at-risk for his life. For example, I ALWAYS place my hands firmly on the top of my steering wheel when the cop approaches. I never make any movements unless instructed. On the motorcycle, I'll turn off the bike and dismount, making sure my hands are in sight of the officer and make NO quick motions.
Don't confuse this with thinking the cop was justified. On the surface, I don't think he was either. I'm only thinking that there really isn't anyone totally innocent in this situation either and the bike rider putting the cop in that position was pretty stupid on his part.
Last edited by Old Yeller; May 17, 2010 at 10:36 AM.
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,216
From: Westerly, RI
More info:
Concerning Thomas White, the police officer in the case "..... A part-time police officer and dispatcher in Ottawa Hills," http://toledoblade.com/article/20100...50401/0/SPORTS
If you're riding a desk, and don't have a lot of field time to practice your skills....
Concerning Thomas White, the police officer in the case "..... A part-time police officer and dispatcher in Ottawa Hills," http://toledoblade.com/article/20100...50401/0/SPORTS
If you're riding a desk, and don't have a lot of field time to practice your skills....
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,090
From: Big Lick
True, but how much does it matter what is going through one's mind?
If a paranoid schizophrenic shoots up a classroom is it ok because in his mind he was doing the right thing?
That is where a plea of insanity comes in, and instead of jail you go to an institution, but you still get off the streets.
If a paranoid schizophrenic shoots up a classroom is it ok because in his mind he was doing the right thing?
That is where a plea of insanity comes in, and instead of jail you go to an institution, but you still get off the streets.
(just healthy debate, not flaming)
Last edited by Old Yeller; May 17, 2010 at 10:38 AM.
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,090
From: Big Lick
More info:
Concerning Thomas White, the police officer in the case "..... A part-time police officer and dispatcher in Ottawa Hills," http://toledoblade.com/article/20100...50401/0/SPORTS
If you're riding a desk, and don't have a lot of field time to practice your skills....
Concerning Thomas White, the police officer in the case "..... A part-time police officer and dispatcher in Ottawa Hills," http://toledoblade.com/article/20100...50401/0/SPORTS
If you're riding a desk, and don't have a lot of field time to practice your skills....
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 310
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 312
I really do think the video says it all and shows it all. Shooting a man in the back who appears to be no more of a threat than any other traffic stop might pose is just not defensible. No we do not know what the officer was thinking but do we need to; I think we don’t. And do we have to have been there to make the call or be a police officer to understand, again I think not. Do you have to have been shot at (I have been) to understand the victims point of view; no. I think even upholstering the gun would have been an overreaction. Autoteach’s analysis is right on the money and given that it is hard for me to understand why anyone would even try to defend what the officer did especially since he was found guilty.
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,090
From: Big Lick
actually, it's NOT an overreaction to unholster his weapon. The guy was evading the police. it puts the entire situation into a different category. It was not a "traffic stop".
I would not debate that the cop over-reacted based on the video either, but I'm curious to know what he saw as a "threat".
The guy on the bike didn't get what he deserved or anything like that, but he was wrong for running. Plain and simple.
I would not debate that the cop over-reacted based on the video either, but I'm curious to know what he saw as a "threat".
The guy on the bike didn't get what he deserved or anything like that, but he was wrong for running. Plain and simple.
Senior Member
Back Marker
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 147
From: Minnesota
The only way I can even begin to put reason to this would be if after running this guys plates while following him the report came back that this guy was a known felon known to carry a gun that has had previous assaults on police officers then I could see the officer being on high alert, but again, the story never says anything about any such thing. Did the officer ever testify that he was sorry/remorseful for what happened or was he set in what he did was right and justified?
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,051
From: Portland, Oregon
This is crap. His actions? He stopped, it may have been after his buddy lost control, but if you're running (and there is a thread on this BB about running from cops) you keep running, he stopped.
Then he looked to see what was happening with his buddy.
Did you read the article, where it said that he was trying to put the bike in neutral and that he was polite even after being shot? Something to the effect of "Would you please help get the bike off me?" If he was running, would he be polite? I doubt it.
Deadly Force does not authorize this shooting. That was the charge against him, excessive force.
Did you hear audio no the tape? Do you know that officer, in his split second decision, remembered his training and instructed the rider to put his hands in the air? Do you know if the rider could hear and understand the instructions? Do you know if the LEO repeated his instructions in the event that the rider didn't understand the instructions. Lots of unknowns.
The officer had no indication that he was reaching for a weapon? He may not have complied immediately, but that doesn't warrant a shot.
His actions? If his actions warrant being shot, then so do yours and mine. We have used excessive speed, displays of power. That is what I saw in the video. Do you want to be shot Tim?
May your God have mercy on your soul for inferring that he deserved being shot and subsequently paralyzed.
In the end, the justice system and a jury of his peers found him guilty of not following procedure and using excessive force.
It's sad that in a split second, a Law Enforcement Officer lost his job and a 24 year old man lost the use of his lower body.
Then he looked to see what was happening with his buddy.
Did you read the article, where it said that he was trying to put the bike in neutral and that he was polite even after being shot? Something to the effect of "Would you please help get the bike off me?" If he was running, would he be polite? I doubt it.
Deadly Force does not authorize this shooting. That was the charge against him, excessive force.
Did you hear audio no the tape? Do you know that officer, in his split second decision, remembered his training and instructed the rider to put his hands in the air? Do you know if the rider could hear and understand the instructions? Do you know if the LEO repeated his instructions in the event that the rider didn't understand the instructions. Lots of unknowns.
The officer had no indication that he was reaching for a weapon? He may not have complied immediately, but that doesn't warrant a shot.
His actions? If his actions warrant being shot, then so do yours and mine. We have used excessive speed, displays of power. That is what I saw in the video. Do you want to be shot Tim?
May your God have mercy on your soul for inferring that he deserved being shot and subsequently paralyzed.
In the end, the justice system and a jury of his peers found him guilty of not following procedure and using excessive force.
It's sad that in a split second, a Law Enforcement Officer lost his job and a 24 year old man lost the use of his lower body.
Erik, i sent you a PM.
tim
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 312
OLD Y....I watched the long version of the video, I did not see the guy 'running from the police'. If he did it was for one block but OK I’ll give the benefit of the doubt to Officer although it’s a stretch.
Junior Member
Squid
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 22
From: Ithaca, NY
Who knows what the cop was thinking or how he percieved danger at the time. But putting power and ability into one man's hand (via handgun) when in the face of probable danger, can you really expect the right outcome everytime? Course not.
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,216
From: Westerly, RI
More importantly, reflect upon your riding experience. Do you always notice everything right away? The cop who is suddenly behind you on the interstate? The approaching Ambulance? Even the alert rider might not hear everything over his D&D/Akrapovich/2Bros/etc. aftermarket exhaust.
