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Why won't my SuperHawk stoppie?

Old 12-23-2006, 06:13 PM
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Why won't my SuperHawk stoppie?

On my SuperHawk the front tire slides before it lifts the rear wheel, every time!

On my SV1000s, the rear lifts before the front tire slides, every time!

Same rider, (with experience lofting the rear of the SV, so I've got the moves down)
Same tires, (D-208's)
Same road surface,
Same resprung and revalved suspension,
Same geometry = (ride height front and back)

Thanks,

~Jeffers
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Old 12-23-2006, 06:24 PM
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less weight over the front, front end to soft?
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Old 12-23-2006, 06:57 PM
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Different suspensions and settings will make a difference. I have no problems doing stoppies on the bike, or any bike for that matter. You just have to load up that front end first before really giving it the brakes.
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Old 12-24-2006, 05:40 AM
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Let me give some bagkground on the stoppie issue.

During the years of owning the my Shawk I noticed it never lifted the rear wheel under hard braking.
I figured I just didn't have the right braking techique and left it at that.
Then a year ago I bought my SV1ks, and without even trying, the rear of the bike starts lofting under hard braking.
So I'm playing around with it a little and can stoppie coming to a stop at will.
(I'm not talking about a rolling stoppie like Gary Rothwell)
Doing the same thing on the shawk results in a front wheel slide.
Yesterday I left a front tire skid mark the length of my wheelbase trying to do a stoppie on the shawk.

Both of these bikes are set-up the same suspension wise.
spring , sag, damping, aftermaket shocks.

Would never have thought of it if I didn't own both bikes and ride them side by side. You can't help comparing such simalar bikes and scraching your head when they behave so differently in this one area.

I have a theory, but so I didn't bias you, I wanted to hear what you guys came up with.

~Jeffers

Come to think of it. I've never seen a stoppie on a SuperHawk !
Even searching pictures.
I know there's stunters on this list, and I've seem lot's of other stunts.
But never a stoppie on a SuperHawk.
Please, someone prove me wrong....but don't crash trying it!
It's easy on the SV, seems like mission impossible on the shawk.
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Old 12-24-2006, 06:04 AM
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My guess would be that it is related to the valving in the forks. The Stock Superhawk valving was always harsh.

I have upgraded to the gold valves and springs, but honestly doing a stoppie on my SuperHawk is of the lowest priority to me so i have never tried it. Now my dirt bike does one oh so easy.

Anybody out there with a RaceTech front end setup able to sound in on this.
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Old 12-24-2006, 08:49 AM
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I'm the exact same. My front tire just slides. I too can pull an endo on other streetbikes, just not the VTR. If the forks are to blame, can the guys with GSXR or CBR forks on their bikes do it?
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Old 12-24-2006, 08:57 AM
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I've done stoppies on my bike. But I find it related more to ampient temperature and tire compound.

If it's hot out and I've got pretty sticky new rubber on the front, stoppies are easy.

Colder temperatures make it more difficult.

My TLS lofted the rear wheel with ease. The VTR takes talent.


rob
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Old 12-24-2006, 09:50 AM
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I have never had any problem lifting the rear on the Hawk. I do it like Greg suggested--load up the front before really giving it the brakes. I'm certainly no stunter, but I never had trouble getting the rear end off the ground.
By the way, this was with the stock forks. I haven't really tried with the 954 forks.
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Old 12-24-2006, 10:17 AM
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I'll let you know once i get my gsxr froks on... however the bike wheelies well so thats something to be proud of!
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Old 12-24-2006, 11:31 AM
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What kind of bike is that in Scooberhawk's avatar?
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Old 12-24-2006, 03:17 PM
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That would be a Hawk GT. I learned to do stoppies on it, with very little compression damping in the F2 forks that I put on it. The bike would not do a stoppie very well either. I had to bottom out the suspension braking, and then grab more front brake while I threw my weight forward - all in one fluid motion. Sometimes I'd be in a hurry and skid the front tire because I didn't have the suspension bottomed out.

I no longer do stoppies on bikes that don't have a tuned suspension because I was on my way to work one day, and to wake myself up and get on-the-ball, I decided to do a stoppie. Well, I had been leaning back going uphill, then the road turned and went downhill towards a traffic light. In my relative absent-mindedness, I threw my weight too far forward. So after a couple seconds balancing on the front wheel and seeing the light up ahead (where I had to turn), I tried to lean back and give a little front brake to slow down. That little bit of brake allowed me to slowly roll (forward) my stoppie into the ground at around 50mph.

The passenger seat sustained no damage, as my Vanson jacket was strapped to it. I fractured a rib, a kneecap, a collarbone, and my pride. It was a graceful fall though. It could have been a lot worse.

So.. a couple things... The first day I let my boy ride the SHawk, after it was broken in, he did a nice wheelie and a nice stoppie on after having ridden it for less than 30 seconds (he rides a TL-R). The first thing he said was that the front end felt mushy, like it was going to buckle under you, and that that was why he didn't buy one five years ago the last time he test road a SHawk. When I try to do stoppies, and I rarely do, I lock up the front (stock) tire. When I put in the correct fork oil for my Gold valves, and get a sticky up front, I'll weigh in again about this.

ps- I dislike the weight distribution on the SHawk, and am hoping that raising the rear and lowering the forks (and/or putting on an USD front end) will help neutralize that issue.
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Old 12-24-2006, 09:18 PM
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This is a pic of an old pic, probably from '99 or '00. I may have been running Bridgestones at the time.
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Old 12-25-2006, 04:04 AM
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Stoppies on the SH are a two-stage event. Brake hard to load the front end, then brake for rear lift. They used to be a lot easier before I added the beetlebags, but I can still do them if I remember to fully squash the front end before 'grabbing' more front to get the rear up.

I'm not much of a stoppie fan though. Waaay to much risk of pulling a "human frame-slider" move like Scooberhawk described. I've got some video of a buddy doing that on his 600RR. That thing would do 1-finger stoppies without even thinking about it.
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Old 12-25-2006, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Hawkrider View Post
This is a pic of an old pic, probably from '99 or '00. I may have been running Bridgestones at the time.

This picture looks more like you've just come out of the air and landed on the front wheel.

Why is your foot off the rear brake and going to the ground already?

rob
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Old 12-25-2006, 11:03 AM
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Huh? It's a stoppie. I don't understand what you're trying to say.

Yeah, it was a while back but I don't use the rear brake when I stoppie and I was starting to come back down a little crooked. That's why I think my foot was off the peg.
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Old 12-25-2006, 01:18 PM
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I am not a fan of the stoppie! Seen too many people crunch their ride. Saw a guy in San Diego lane spilt and do one at the light and fell over on the car next to him....he felt like a tool after crashing on the hot chicks convertible to the right. She didn't laught either. Although on my TL S it was very easy to get the rear tire off the ground under hard braking for the next corner. But I never did it on purpose. I think it's a neat trick....but not for me. I like mine shiny side up!
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Old 12-25-2006, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Hawkrider View Post
This is a pic of an old pic, probably from '99 or '00. I may have been running Bridgestones at the time.

Hey! How about that!
First pic I've seen of a shawk stoppie!

I actually did a small stoppie Sunday after using all the tips you guys gave me.

grasped the tank with my knees,
lifted my weight off the seat,
compressing the front before the final 'squeeze & lift',
Takes timing and I was still expecting the front to slide at any time!

Too much drama for this old fart, I feel like I'm trying to be a stunter.

On the SV, there's no drama, it's just an automatic stoppie.

I believe it's because there's so much flex in the SuperHawks chassis compared to the SV.
The shawks 41mm forks and tunaflex frame 'spring loads' and stores energy.
And then it releases that stored energy and induces a slide if there's the slightest reduction of traction leading up to lifting the rear of the motorcycle.

That's my theory anyway.

~Jeffers
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Old 12-26-2006, 04:14 AM
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I don't realy bother with puting it on it's nose,or looseing the front trying.
Big wheelies are the way to go!
Much moore fun.....but that's just me.
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Old 12-26-2006, 10:07 AM
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Jeffers,
Have you raised the back or lowered the front at all? The might be most of the problem, if you haven't. Just a thought. SHawk sits way back.
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Old 12-28-2006, 12:01 PM
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I came across an article this month or last in one of the british bike mags (superbike, I think). the writer wanted to improve his stoppies so enlisted a big-time stunter to teach him. He said one of the things he had to 're-learn' was to be much more abrupt on the brakes, and carry more speed. Rather than slowly squeezing on the brakes and letting the chasis settle then applying harder braking, he kept emphasizing really hitting the brakes hard more quickly to get the weight transfer going (of course being sure the tires were warm first). I'm sure its really important on a bike set up like the superhawk is. The article was pretty good overall. As pay back for the lessons, he had to ride pillon for the stunter while he was doing stoppies for some upcoming show. Pretty wild photos - but he said riding passenger really helped him appreciate the different style of braking.

anyway, they aren't my thing, and I'm always glad the SH carries its weight the way it does so I can stop fast from high speeds without too much concern.

bill
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Old 12-28-2006, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by cliby View Post
I'm always glad the SH carries its weight the way it does so I can stop fast from high speeds without too much concern.

bill
That's a good point. Some cruzers stop faster than sportbikes because of their more rearward weight bias. So having a bike that breaks traction before flipping over may not be such a bad thing.

~Jeffers
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Old 12-28-2006, 02:03 PM
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100% guarantee that technique will result in front wheel lockup. The VTR's must be loaded up first and then you can pour on the brake power. Even so, the best you get is a quick stop.
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Old 12-28-2006, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by JamieDaugherty View Post
100% guarantee that technique will result in front wheel lockup. The VTR's must be loaded up first and then you can pour on the brake power. Even so, the best you get is a quick stop.
Ah, the guys that do stoppies are used to crashing - so one of you guys give it a try and get back to us!
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Old 12-28-2006, 04:09 PM
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I had trouble doing stoppies on my hawk with the crappy stock tires. I was skidding every time I tried, but once I put on my michelin pilot powers it was no problem at all.
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Old 12-28-2006, 04:20 PM
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YEAH, I think a lot of it depends on tire compound and temperature.

With Pilot race tires it's never skidded.

rob
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Old 12-28-2006, 08:34 PM
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Yeah that's true about the stock D204's. When I was younger and used to ride alot harder (and DUMBER) when braking hard from high speed my bike always used to skip and stutter the front tire across the pavement.
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Old 12-29-2006, 11:50 AM
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I can "stop" endo my S'hawk, but I wont try to roll them out. I also have a streetfightered suzuki stuntbike that I can roll endos on. That bike became a stunter when I flipped a stoppie, which is real easy to do, which is why I dont like doing em on my minty superhawk....

Doing stoppies is way fun and will get you the admiration of everyone within eyesight. Even my Dad thinks theyre cool, and hes 60 and rides a harley. On the other hand, theyre stupidly dangerous - theres nothing to save you if you get it up too high, unlike in a wheelie where either a throttle chop or back brake will bring you back down.

That being said, heres a quick 101 on endos from everything I've learned, and it also cost me a broken collarbone and a lot of road rash to get this info. Also, I agree that they are easier to learn (and do) on a LOT of other bikes. In fact, if you even get the SH rear up high enough, the engine floods and stalls because of the carb'd v twin. (why FI 4s are wayyyy better)

Anyhow, first things first: you need sticky tires. I have pirelli diablos on the 'hawk, and bridgestone bt012's on the stunter. Then you need your sticky tires to be hot, and you also need good pavement that is also hot. I wont even try stoppies in cold weather.

The most important thing to remember when doing endo's is body position. You need to have your weight dead center over the bike, or the back will start to kick out. You need to be stiff (like in a wheelie) with your arms, chest and shoulders braced, and your head up and looking forward. You need to come in with some speed; I'd say the top of 1st, or 2nd (40-50ish) minimum. Pull in the clutch, get on the brakes pretty hard to bottom the suspension, and then progressively harder - not just grabbing them hard, but (quickly) gradually grabbing them harder. Also important is some weight transfer; as you begin braking, you basically slide your nuts up the tank so your *** is off the seat a little and your over the front wheel. As the back comes up, gradually let off the brake. When I am rolling a good one, I'm only on the brakes maybe 10%. Keep your upper body straight and stiff, take baby steps, and you should have em in a few hours in a clean dry parking lot or somewhere similar. As a bonus, this is secretly training your emergency "panic" stopping skills, learning to apply as much braking power as possible to the ground without locking the brakes or breaking ground traction!!

Oh, and for style points, hit the rear brake as the rear is coming down. Itll stop the spinning wheel and eliminate that annoying chain slapping sound when your tire lands..

Cheers
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Old 12-29-2006, 12:30 PM
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I am glad this issue has been brought up, because it is HARD to do on a the hawk. My F4i would come up automatically in a controlled fashion, but I always have the front slide unless I am on really grippy/rough ashphalt going downhill. I hate the feeling when the front starts to slide...almost biffed it twice because of that.

I think based on the above comments I will just stay away from them on the hawk since it involves too much.

My friends just grip the brake and up the back wheel comes regardless...zero skill involved on some bikes....
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Old 12-29-2006, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Nanotech View Post
I am glad this issue has been brought up, because it is HARD to do on a the hawk. My F4i would come up automatically in a controlled fashion, but I always have the front slide unless I am on really grippy/rough ashphalt going downhill. I hate the feeling when the front starts to slide...almost biffed it twice because of that.

I think based on the above comments I will just stay away from them on the hawk since it involves too much.

My friends just grip the brake and up the back wheel comes regardless...zero skill involved on some bikes....
Yeah, and I have Dunlop Qualfiers...I think I will get the Pilot Powers next..maybe then it will be easier
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Old 12-29-2006, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by J.J. View Post
Oh, and for style points, hit the rear brake as the rear is coming down. Itll stop the spinning wheel and eliminate that annoying chain slapping sound when your tire lands..

Cheers
For even more style points, imho, grab some front brake right before you touch down. It will soften the landing.

When my boy did the huge stoppie on my SHawk, he landed it hard.. and that's not cool at all.

Progressively squeeze as the rear comes back down. You'll be pretty much at a full-on squeeze by the time the rear tire hits, and it'll be soft and quiet. And your riding buddies will see your skills, and your bike will love you more.
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