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RFID Ignition

Old 07-24-2013, 11:25 PM
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RFID Ignition

Last year, I saw several links on the interweb about how others have used a RFID reader to use solely as thier ignition or in parallel with thier stock key ignition. Thinking this would be a fun project for the Superhawk, (also for my truck and the GNZ someday), I then purchased a RFID reader off eBay (actually got 3 of 'em for like $15) and just lately got the urge to install it.

I saved several links that had the wire diagrams on how to hook everything up the exact way I wanted to, but unfortunetly all the pictures in those links are not available anymore.

The way I wanted to hook mine up, was to use the clutch switch to turn on the RFID reader, pass the key fob over the antenna, the ignition would turn on (just like as if you turned the ignition key) and you would then be able to start the bike. You would then be able to use the kill switch on the handle bar to kill the bike, turning everything off and reset the latch for the RFID.

EDIT: The link that had all the wiring diagrams I was going to follow HERE

The RFID has just three wires to hook it up. Positive, negative and white wire that sends a positive pulse when the correct key is near the antenna.

After looking at the Superhawks wiring diagram ('98-'00), the ignition switch needs continuity to three wires, the Bat1, Ign, and Fan (just going off memory here) to start the bike. I want to make a latch, which is the "Momentary to constant output" on that link. My question is, do I need a "Momentary to constant output" relay setup for each of the three wires that needs continuity with each other for the ignition? Or is there an easier way to acomplish this? I'm pretty sure I'm making this more complicated than it should be.

If you're reading this Tweety, I promise not to use any hammers to fix anything this time

Last edited by CruxGNZ; 07-25-2013 at 12:05 AM.
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Old 07-25-2013, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by CruxGNZ View Post
If you're reading this Tweety, I promise not to use any hammers to fix anything this time
Why not? They are perfect tools for fixing nails that stick out... It's just that there are no nails on bikes... (Well... If there are, take a picture for heavens sake!)

Originally Posted by CruxGNZ View Post
After looking at the Superhawks wiring diagram ('98-'00), the ignition switch needs continuity to three wires, the Bat1, Ign, and Fan (just going off memory here) to start the bike. I want to make a latch, which is the "Momentary to constant output" on that link. My question is, do I need a "Momentary to constant output" relay setup for each of the three wires that needs continuity with each other for the ignition? Or is there an easier way to acomplish this? I'm pretty sure I'm making this more complicated than it should be.
Probably... It's actually two circuits, not three... In from the main fuse (bat), and out to the fuse box (ign) and fan... And the reasons for splitting those up, is that you would most likely melt the wire before the fuse blew otherwise as the fan actually uses a fair amount of the allocated 10A fuse on spin-up, plus that you don't want the fan to "dirty" the voltage for the other parts... So you do need two circuits if you do it that way...

But you could simplify it a lot by just making one circuit for the ignition part, and sticking a normal switch on there somewhere (in place of the stock ignition perhaps?) with two poles, one killing the fan circuit and the other disabling the power to the RFID reader... It let's you keep the clutch switch intact for it's purpose... It might not be as cool as just swiping the RFID, but you can probably find a cool enough looking switch for it to make up for that...

The drain from the RFID with the bike on should be inconsequential really, but if you want, just make a circuit that latches that, and releases once it's triggered, and it can't actually drain the battery while sitting either... Or just route it through the clutch like you said... The only reason for going through both the switch and the clutch would be that then you can't forget the switch off, and have no cooling... And, the reason for me adding all of this complexity, is that the fan would most likely de-latch a relay on it's own, since it tends to chop up the voltage pretty good... Which would mean the possibility of the bike shutting down on the freeway when the fan starts... Not fun...

Last edited by Tweety; 07-25-2013 at 12:56 AM.
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Old 07-25-2013, 07:25 PM
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Okay, I understand about the ignition circuit now.

Instead of using a switch, I think I'll make another latch just for the fan. So, the RFID would turn on the ignition and also turn on the fan, but seperate circuits. Having them on seperate circuits, would this alleviate the dirty voltage you're talking about? I don't want the fan turning on and possibly disconnecting the ignition latch while riding! That would really, really suck. I haven't played around with stacking relays to much, other than just using them normally like most of us have (fog lights, headlights, ect.).

Thanks for the help. Much appreciated
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Old 07-26-2013, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by CruxGNZ View Post
The way I wanted to hook mine up, was to use the clutch switch to turn on the RFID reader, pass the key fob over the antenna, the ignition would turn on (just like as if you turned the ignition key) and you would then be able to start the bike. You would then be able to use the kill switch on the handle bar to kill the bike, turning everything off and reset the latch for the RFID.
The reason for not having the RFID box wired directly to the battery, is because when it's on, it is always looking for a signal (RFID fob) and would eventually kill your battery. Instead of using a normal switch somewhere, it's easier, and in my opinion cleaner looking, to use what's already on the bike.

Alright, I drew everything out on paper and it looks like this will indeed work. Lets see if I can explain how I will have it hooked up:

RFID negative gets completed by pulling in the clutch switch, thus turning on the RFID unit. Pass the RFID fob over the antenna, and the positive pulse then triggers the latch. The constant 12V positive from the latch goes to one side of the coils of two relays, which then powers them. These two relays I have hooked up as follows:

RELAY #1
87- Bat1
30- Connects to 30 of Relay #2

RELAY #2
87- Fan
30- Ignition

So when the two relays get power, Bat1, Fan and Ignition all have continuity with each other, just like the stock key switch. The "Fused 12V Positive" of the latch is connected to the kill switch (kill switch on run, is Bat2 & Ign have continuity). So, when the kill switch is hit, the "Ign" or ignition in the Superhawk wiring diagram is broken and the latch de energizes and turns off the bike and reseting the latch.

I'm worried about the fan turning on, drawing to much amperage and killing the latch, therefor turning off the bike. Just thinking out loud here, but would a capacitor on the "fused 12V positive" of the latch help at all?

Just wanted to ask before I bench test it. The only thing I can't test is the fan turning on and possibly killing the latch...or wait a minute...I have an extra Superhawk radiator fan in my spare parts bin. I guess I can bench test everything haha

Last edited by CruxGNZ; 07-28-2013 at 01:00 AM. Reason: Fixed it
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Old 07-26-2013, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by CruxGNZ View Post
The reason for not having the RFID box wired directly to the battery, is because when it's on, it is always looking for a signal (RFID fob) and would eventually kill your battery. Instead of using a normal switch somewhere, it's easier, and in my opinion cleaner looking, to use what's already on the bike.

Alright, I drew everything out on paper and it looks like this will indeed work. Lets see if I can explain how I will have it hooked up:

RFID negative gets completed by pulling in the clutch switch, thus turning on the RFID unit. Pass the RFID fob over the antenna, and the positive pulse then triggers the latch. The constant 12V positive from the latch goes to one side of the coils of two relays, which then powers them. These two coils I have hooked up as follows:

RELAY #1
87- Bat1
30- Connects to 30 of Relay #2

RELAY #2
87- Fan
30- Ignition

So when the two relays get power, Bat1, Fan and Ignition all have continuity with each other, just like the stock key switch. The "Fused 12V Positive" of the latch is connected to the kill switch (kill switch on run, is Bat2 & Ign have continuity). So, when the kill switch is hit, the "Ign" or ignition in the Superhawk wiring diagram is broken and the latch de energizes and turns off the bike and reseting the latch.

I'm worried about the fan turning on, drawing to much amperage and killing the latch, therefor turning off the bike. Just thinking out loud here, but would a capacitor on the "fused 12V positive" of the latch help at all?

Just wanted to ask before I bench test it. The only thing I can't test is the fan turning on and possibly killing the latch...or wait a minute...I have an extra Superhawk radiator fan in my spare parts bin. I guess I can bench test everything haha
Um, either I'm missing something, or you are... You talked about a separate latch for the fan... That would mean a total of four relay's as a latch is made up out of two... Or the sneaky way, of using three relays, to make two latches...

What you are describing with those pin out's isn't going to do anything of the sort, as it's not a latch at all...

Besides, with the rest of your circuit all mashed up it won't really do anything at all... The Ign going through the ignition, switched by the key, is what supplies power to the 10A fuse powering the line to the kill switch and starter circuit in the first place, so you have just made a loop there...
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Old 07-26-2013, 11:47 PM
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To make this a bit clearer...

Here's the original latch...
RFID Ignition-momentconstant.gif
Here, the red wire is power going in, the purple is power going out...

And here is what it looks like, using the names of the signals as they are named in the ignition switch of the bike...
RFID Ignition-momentconstant.png
The red wire, is Bat, ie power in, and the purple is power going out, either Ign or Fan...

Ie, you then make an exact duplicate circuit, hook the same wire form the RFID to both, and substitute Ign for Fan, and you have the most basic RFID ignition switch... Albeit, at this point you can ONLY switch it on, not off, since the kill switch still operates the starter/engine circuit, not the ignition...

But the main fuse, powering the ignition switch is 25A, so everything you do here, must be of the correct dimensions for that current, ie rather thick wiring, heavy duty relays, an every connection with a soldered and crimped wire on the connector that is well isolated...

Basically, the point I'm trying to make here... This is all good an well in theory, but in practice it's not at all a good idea...

A much better idea is to make a keyless main power switch for the bike... That turns on power for the fan circuit, making it operate much better than on a latched relay which is a bad idea at all with the fan, and then hook the RFID to the clutch like you suggested, using a latched relay like above to interrupt the ignition only... The operation becomes the exact same thing, but to turn the ignition off, you just use the main power switch...

Or, even better, to avoid the whole 25A circuit completely in the latches... Replace the ignition with a keyless main power switch, doing just the same as the key does now... Then hook the RFID up to clutch for power, and let the latched relay switch the line going to the kill switch... Swipe, push starter and ride... Then you use the kill switch to kill the engine alone or main power switch to power the bike down, but in this scenario the bike can't be started or ridden without a new swipe when the kill switch has been used...

Last edited by Tweety; 07-27-2013 at 12:12 AM.
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Old 07-28-2013, 01:22 AM
  #7  
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Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
Or, even better, to avoid the whole 25A circuit completely in the latches... Replace the ignition with a keyless main power switch, doing just the same as the key does now... Then hook the RFID up to clutch for power, and let the latched relay switch the line going to the kill switch... Swipe, push starter and ride... Then you use the kill switch to kill the engine alone or main power switch to power the bike down, but in this scenario the bike can't be started or ridden without a new swipe when the kill switch has been used...
That is exactly what I was trying to acomplish. I wasn't using the relays to actually start the bike. I just wanted to turn the ignition circuit on with the RFID, just like as if you had turned the key.

With your help Tweety and drawing some more wiring diagrams in my notebook, I believe that I have this figured out. Now to build everything and bench test. If it all works as planned, I will make a drawing with labels and color coded wires for others to follow if they wish.

Thanks again!
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Old 07-28-2013, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by CruxGNZ View Post
That is exactly what I was trying to acomplish. I wasn't using the relays to actually start the bike. I just wanted to turn the ignition circuit on with the RFID, just like as if you had turned the key.

With your help Tweety and drawing some more wiring diagrams in my notebook, I believe that I have this figured out. Now to build everything and bench test. If it all works as planned, I will make a drawing with labels and color coded wires for others to follow if they wish.

Thanks again!
Again, from my view, this sounds like we are misunderstanding each other slightly... What you want to do, from what you say, is use the latched relays to replace the key... What I said, was that this was on the whole a very bad idea...

One, that put's 25A through those relays, making the wiring and relays expensive and you really need a fair working knowledge of soldering and crimping high amp cabling unless you want to create problems for yourself doing that... Plus you need two latches, one for the fan, and one for the rest, a total of four relays...

Two, you then need to add a secondary circuit with a switch to disengage the latch in the first place, adding complexity, and more things to go wrong...

My suggestion, that you quoted, was to use a key-less switch, but NOT the RFID controlled latches as the replacement for the key... That normal, manual switch then carries the 25A, and is a lot easier to do than the other option, with less critical solder and crimp... A simple disconnect is well suitable for this, and you can even put it in the position of the normal key if you like...

However, with the removal of the key and it's theft securtity (yeah right!), you then use the RFID and latches to act as the security part, inserting it as a secondary kill switch, allowing the existing kill switch to disengage the latch... Simple, less complex, and just as secure if you do it nicely, and hide everything away... Sure, it's not for starting, as you said... But it doesn't mean the RFID + relays replace the key either, really...

Doing it the other way, I anticipate problems... But go ahead and prove me wrong...

If you can scan them, or replicate on the computer, I'd gladly look over those ideas before hand and help out more...
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Old 08-08-2014, 11:07 AM
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Let's revisit this. I got all the parts, but never installed it.

I recently aquired some parts from a trade, and got me thinking again about this project. In the trade, I found a box that has the electronics for doing an RFID ignition. Here is a picture of what I got:
Name:  20140803_144507.jpg
Views: 218
Size:  116.9 KB

I now have (yet another) RFID reader/writer, a 611T solid state latching relay, and several 20A mini relays.

Now, how would I go about wiring this stuff up? The latching relay makes the wiring a little easier now.
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Old 08-09-2014, 11:55 AM
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I like this little SSR (Solid State Relay). It can do some neat stuff. However, I cannot find any information on this 611T, other than the directions that came with the 611T.
Does anyone know how many amps this 611T can handle?

I'm making the schematic that I can post here for others to review it before I fry something. Just trying to find out if the 611T can handle our ignition or if the 611T should switch an automotive 30A relay, which would be a relay switching a relay.
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