REA R SWING ARM SPOOLS ON A HAWK? CAN YOU DO IT?
02-21-2012, 11:53 AM
#1
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REA R SWING ARM SPOOLS ON A HAWK? CAN YOU DO IT?
i was wondering if i can put some on my hawk front and rear, ive seen them with them but i cant see where they would go on my bike? am i just blind?
02-21-2012, 12:18 PM
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02-21-2012, 12:19 PM
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02-21-2012, 12:27 PM
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02-21-2012, 12:38 PM
#7
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Drilled and tapped the SA to fit mine, as per the above measurements.
Use a fine thread, the metal's only 3-4mm thick.
For the fronts, drill and tap the spindle lockbolt to fit the RH side one, it's pretty hard to drill (hard metal) but ok if you use a good drill bit and cutting fluid.
For the LH side, you can make a fitting like you'd get in aftermarket bar ends- a compressible rubber insert that goes into the hollow end of the spindle.
Maybe not as secure as you'd want to use as a fork leg crash protector, but plenty strong enough to use as a paddock stand mounting.
Use a fine thread, the metal's only 3-4mm thick.
For the fronts, drill and tap the spindle lockbolt to fit the RH side one, it's pretty hard to drill (hard metal) but ok if you use a good drill bit and cutting fluid.
For the LH side, you can make a fitting like you'd get in aftermarket bar ends- a compressible rubber insert that goes into the hollow end of the spindle.
Maybe not as secure as you'd want to use as a fork leg crash protector, but plenty strong enough to use as a paddock stand mounting.
02-25-2012, 07:03 AM
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Waiting to get some pit bull adaptors for the rear stand as all my bikes (other than the 2 previous VTR's), had spool mounts.
Currently/temporarily, I have a long bar which passes through the rear axle, and protrudes enough so my rear stand can get a good bite. :-) When in doubt, improvise.
Currently/temporarily, I have a long bar which passes through the rear axle, and protrudes enough so my rear stand can get a good bite. :-) When in doubt, improvise.
02-25-2012, 09:17 AM
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I agree per above.
Last edited by skokievtr; 02-25-2012 at 09:19 AM.
02-25-2012, 10:43 AM
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I'd be very leary of drilling a hole into the swingarm. Welding on a tab seems to be a much better, although more labor intensive option. It seems to me that it would introduce a failre point that wasn't previously there.
02-25-2012, 02:52 PM
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First off, theses bike weight a lot more than 400lbs. Second, the spools only support half the weight, and there are two of them. That with the fact that it's a sheering force, I'm fairly confident in them.
02-25-2012, 03:24 PM
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Hey out there,I used the dimensions in Wicky's photo,drilled and put some weld bond on a nut and slid in the little space by the axel(used a looped piece of wire to hold the nut)was done in 15 mins and hasn't budged.Just don't get glue on the threads!
02-25-2012, 03:54 PM
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Welding the swing arm can lead to heat stress cracks and points, and destroys the clear coat (if this is one). Reread my prior reply.
02-25-2012, 05:33 PM
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I've been wondering if a chunk of aluminum could be JBWelded to the underside of the swingarm? Sand off the clearcoat before the proceedure - use a littel 'extra' JB so it has a lip around the outside.
also make sure the alum chunk and the swinger are sanded to a rough finish (200 grit?) for the JB to grab.
??
also make sure the alum chunk and the swinger are sanded to a rough finish (200 grit?) for the JB to grab.
??
02-25-2012, 06:30 PM
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oops!
Sorry I meant JB weld,not weld bond!
02-26-2012, 03:58 AM
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A rivnut means you add a set of threads, in either steel, which is best, or in aluminium which works as well... Those threads are supported by a ring of material on either side of the original swingarm walls, that take up the loads a lot better, being nearly three times the width in total... As long as you countersink the spool so it contacts the swingarm, and can't bend, changing the equation, you have a lot stronger threads this way... The threads in them selves are longer by far, probably around 10-15 mm instead of 2-3 mm... The wall/ring around them are three times thicker, and if you select steel rivnuts, a both the ring and threads are a lot more sturdy...
It wouldn't really be much of a problem for you to enlarge that hole slightly, and stick a rivnut in there... I really think it's worth the effort to not have a hole in your swingarm, and the bike on the ground...
02-26-2012, 09:17 AM
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Well, I would worry... It's not an sheering force exclusively... Even if the spools are tight against the surface, they can slide along it, so there is still a constant force on the threads, the upper one being pushed in, the lower being pulled out by the bolt that is able to pivot very slightly... And on a rather thin piece of aluminium, that's enough... In the battle between aluminium threads, and steel bolt, the winner will always be the bolt... It might take a while, but in the end you will end up with the hole being enlarged, fatigued, and in the end either cracked or the threads outright ripped out by the bolt...
A rivnut means you add a set of threads, in either steel, which is best, or in aluminium which works as well... Those threads are supported by a ring of material on either side of the original swingarm walls, that take up the loads a lot better, being nearly three times the width in total... As long as you countersink the spool so it contacts the swingarm, and can't bend, changing the equation, you have a lot stronger threads this way... The threads in them selves are longer by far, probably around 10-15 mm instead of 2-3 mm... The wall/ring around them are three times thicker, and if you select steel rivnuts, a both the ring and threads are a lot more sturdy...
It wouldn't really be much of a problem for you to enlarge that hole slightly, and stick a rivnut in there... I really think it's worth the effort to not have a hole in your swingarm, and the bike on the ground...
A rivnut means you add a set of threads, in either steel, which is best, or in aluminium which works as well... Those threads are supported by a ring of material on either side of the original swingarm walls, that take up the loads a lot better, being nearly three times the width in total... As long as you countersink the spool so it contacts the swingarm, and can't bend, changing the equation, you have a lot stronger threads this way... The threads in them selves are longer by far, probably around 10-15 mm instead of 2-3 mm... The wall/ring around them are three times thicker, and if you select steel rivnuts, a both the ring and threads are a lot more sturdy...
It wouldn't really be much of a problem for you to enlarge that hole slightly, and stick a rivnut in there... I really think it's worth the effort to not have a hole in your swingarm, and the bike on the ground...
BTW, I'm FINALLY getting around to my VR-R & HL circuit redo. Spring is not quite around the corner...
02-26-2012, 12:07 PM
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IMO, drilling a hole, then adding a riv-nut is even worse than just drilling and tapping a hole. The riv not add pressure to the hole, and is trying to induce a crack by the simple means of being in there.
A proper weld will have no issues with adding cracks. The worst it will do is have the weld crack. If you use a Mig welder with aluminum wire, you will probably have a problem. If you use a Heli-arc(Tig), and you actually know how to properly use it, you will have no problems, and the two pieces will be permanently joined together. My older brother is a welder, and very well respected in his suplemental career. I know enough about welding to know that I shouldn't, even though I can make a weld look good, I'd rather have him do it.
Payh attention to my screen name, and the names in the video. Both of these cars are built by my brother. His previous car held records in the last class he was in.
PSCA Drag Racing with Team Modular Mustang Racing and Garrett Turbo - YouTube
02-27-2012, 12:28 PM
#27
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Read it, and was adding the why, as to why a rivnut was better than just drilling and tapping thread...
02-27-2012, 12:49 PM
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IMO, drilling a hole, then adding a riv-nut is even worse than just drilling and tapping a hole. The riv not add pressure to the hole, and is trying to induce a crack by the simple means of being in there.
A proper weld will have no issues with adding cracks. The worst it will do is have the weld crack. If you use a Mig welder with aluminum wire, you will probably have a problem. If you use a Heli-arc(Tig), and you actually know how to properly use it, you will have no problems, and the two pieces will be permanently joined together. My older brother is a welder, and very well respected in his suplemental career. I know enough about welding to know that I shouldn't, even though I can make a weld look good, I'd rather have him do it.
Payh attention to my screen name, and the names in the video. Both of these cars are built by my brother. His previous car held records in the last class he was in.
PSCA Drag Racing with Team Modular Mustang Racing and Garrett Turbo - YouTube
A proper weld will have no issues with adding cracks. The worst it will do is have the weld crack. If you use a Mig welder with aluminum wire, you will probably have a problem. If you use a Heli-arc(Tig), and you actually know how to properly use it, you will have no problems, and the two pieces will be permanently joined together. My older brother is a welder, and very well respected in his suplemental career. I know enough about welding to know that I shouldn't, even though I can make a weld look good, I'd rather have him do it.
Payh attention to my screen name, and the names in the video. Both of these cars are built by my brother. His previous car held records in the last class he was in.
PSCA Drag Racing with Team Modular Mustang Racing and Garrett Turbo - YouTube
BUT... And this is a rather big one... You are 100% wrong on the statement on the rivnut... With that simple statement you have made it abundantly clear that you haven't grasped the fundamental behaviour of forces, and how a rivnut works...
You say the rivnut is trying to add a crack by simply being in there... ????
OK, let's take the way you formulated that and step it back a little, to what your actual point was... You mean that the way the rivnut is designed, it adds pressure to the material, going outwards from the hole?
Nope... The rivnut is made of a hollow tube... The tube is thicker in both ends, one end where the outer ring is, one end where the threads are... The middle part is thinner... The result is that the thinner material once riveted crowns out inside the original material, forming the other end... It does not add any pressure outwards in the hole, or very, very minimal, since the thicker material in the ends isn't crowning... If it did, the threads would become deformed, and the rivnut wouldn't work... In fact the force keeping the rivnut from slipping in the hole is the clamping force applied from the sides, not the growth of the tube...
In terms of how forces are applied to the material, the rivnut is a little better than a bolt with washers and a nut on the other side, a little worse than a true rivet... And both are actually better, material wise than a weld... And all three are infinitely better than a short thread with leverage in a thin material...
An improper weld, will however potentially weaken the material, to the point where a cracked weld is the least of your problems... You could end up with a nice hole where the bung and weld where ripped of the weakened material...
However, the reason a weld is still preferable, if done properly is that a welded on bung for the thread will be under the swingarm, so the distribution of forces and where they are applied, are a lot better than when applied like this, in this position... That applies to either rivnut, bolt/washer/nut or simple threaded material...
It's fine to prefer one or the other... But if you are going to advocate one, use facts, not bullshit... It's too easy to point holes in that...
Last edited by Tweety; 02-27-2012 at 12:53 PM.
02-27-2012, 02:39 PM
#29
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Markus, as I stated, I thought you were following up for me.
I don't know how you have patience to respond sometimes. In my old age, it's hard for me.
As I'm sure you also know but many member may not, one major factor when welding, especially aluminum (and given an experienced welder who is certified for the equipment and position to be used) is not knowing the grade (Type) of material and its "condition". There are some filler rods that work well on a variety of aluminum types but very often cast and forged and even extruded shapes have been "heat treated" or are alloyed to "age" into a "condition" (i.e., 6061-T6). So the dire results and foibles you mentioned regarding welding can have several causes.
Bottom line, for most people, a rivnut is simple, inexpensive, effective and expedient for this application compared to welding.
I don't know how you have patience to respond sometimes. In my old age, it's hard for me.
As I'm sure you also know but many member may not, one major factor when welding, especially aluminum (and given an experienced welder who is certified for the equipment and position to be used) is not knowing the grade (Type) of material and its "condition". There are some filler rods that work well on a variety of aluminum types but very often cast and forged and even extruded shapes have been "heat treated" or are alloyed to "age" into a "condition" (i.e., 6061-T6). So the dire results and foibles you mentioned regarding welding can have several causes.
Bottom line, for most people, a rivnut is simple, inexpensive, effective and expedient for this application compared to welding.
02-27-2012, 05:31 PM
#30
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Damn tweety I could hardly understand all that lol ..
And a newly formed opinion...
I may want spools after all...have been using those swingarm supports an the gotdamned things scraped my exhaust a little from being too far inward. With spools that wouldn't have happened. An to get both to line up was aight with my ol man there to help, but once back at my pad in its rightful spot, its gonna be a bitch to do alone...
And a newly formed opinion...
I may want spools after all...have been using those swingarm supports an the gotdamned things scraped my exhaust a little from being too far inward. With spools that wouldn't have happened. An to get both to line up was aight with my ol man there to help, but once back at my pad in its rightful spot, its gonna be a bitch to do alone...
