Oil Filter Mystery
08-11-2010, 07:01 PM
#32
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Unless you are filling the oil filter to the brim and standing the bike on its nose before installation, you're not adding 3.4 oz. to the system with the oil filter.
If 0.7 qt. of oil remains trapped elsewhere in the engine even when the oil filter is removed, how would a faulty anti-drain valve cause some or all of it to migrate to the sump?
If 0.7 qt. of oil remains trapped elsewhere in the engine even when the oil filter is removed, how would a faulty anti-drain valve cause some or all of it to migrate to the sump?
Is the bike fully up to temperature every time you check it? There was joking about "swelling" but in fact the oil will expand just like almost every other compound as temperature rises. I didn't read this thread in it's entirety. Forgive me if it has already been mentioned. Also, have you tried an OEM filter just for ***** and giggles?
As to trying an OEM filter, I have been using the Purolator filters for years with no issues until now and have tried 2 different PL filters with the same result since the "issue" arose. Again, Purolator could have a bad batch of A-D valves however unlikely. They will test the filter for free. But now before I do, I will drain off oil until it reads properly "hot" and then compare the volume and levels when its cold.
That is what makes the most sense. Searching "coefficient of thermal expansion" * "motor oil" looks like 4.8% from cold to operation temperature.
That would be like adding (or draining) about 6 ounces from a 4 quart system.
Certainly enough difference to notice in the site glass.
That would be like adding (or draining) about 6 ounces from a 4 quart system.
Certainly enough difference to notice in the site glass.
Last edited by skokievtr; 08-11-2010 at 07:04 PM.
08-11-2010, 07:18 PM
#33
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I understand your concern, and you probably don't give two ***** about my opinion. I think your analyzing this to death and making a mountain out a a mole hill. Like I said a few minutes ago, no extra oil is getting into your system. If your not confident in the amount your drained, do it again and measure it on the way out.
The difference in amount between an engine disassembled and just changing the oil is that it's impossible to drain every last drop of oil from the entire bike without taking it apart. There are too many nooks and crannies where it stays when the oil isn't in motion. I know I'm telling you something you already know, but my point is that it isn't enough oil to make a difference on anything. The amount were talking about will not create an over pressure. The engine isn't perfectly sealed, the crank isn't going stir the oil into a foam and cavitate the oil pump because of an extra ounce or two.
Yes, to much oil in an engine can be a very bad thing. The levels you are talking about will have no bearing on anything.
The difference in amount between an engine disassembled and just changing the oil is that it's impossible to drain every last drop of oil from the entire bike without taking it apart. There are too many nooks and crannies where it stays when the oil isn't in motion. I know I'm telling you something you already know, but my point is that it isn't enough oil to make a difference on anything. The amount were talking about will not create an over pressure. The engine isn't perfectly sealed, the crank isn't going stir the oil into a foam and cavitate the oil pump because of an extra ounce or two.
Yes, to much oil in an engine can be a very bad thing. The levels you are talking about will have no bearing on anything.
08-11-2010, 08:01 PM
#34
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I can be pretty **** myself. If I have a vehicle with an upside down mounted filter, I fill it before installing. But on my VTR I just lube the o-ring, torque the filter to 20 foot pounds, and pour in 4.1 quarts of Pro Honda 10w40. Works every time.
Oh, and that's with an OEM filter, by the way.
Oh, and that's with an OEM filter, by the way.
Last edited by VTRsurfer; 08-11-2010 at 08:08 PM.
08-11-2010, 09:47 PM
#35
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A few things I'd like to say;
A person or two on this thread are goofin' and teasing, the rest are sincere.
On the outside chance you don't realize it already, I'm one of the latter.
I appreciate and respect any guy observant, conscientious and curious enough to raise the question you have.
That said, the 20+ ounces of oil removable only by "disassembly" is only "significant" if you can posit a theory of how it gets into the sump. If it doesn't drain with the oil filter removed, I don't see how it goes past a filter with a defective valve into the sump.
As for the volume of oil in the filter itself, I'd think about it this way;
Imagine a container full of water and red dye #2. It is sealed except for a hollow tube extending from inside the container to several feet below. If you barely submerge this container in a tub of water 2 or 3 feet deep with the tube extending to the bottom of the tub, how much red water will flow into the tub? Virtually none, unless and until you raise the container above the surface of the tub water sufficient to make the downward pressure on the column of water in the tube greater than the pressure at the bottom of the tub.
I believe the difference in oil level you've observed has got to be attributed to a difference in oil temp.
A person or two on this thread are goofin' and teasing, the rest are sincere.
On the outside chance you don't realize it already, I'm one of the latter.
I appreciate and respect any guy observant, conscientious and curious enough to raise the question you have.
That said, the 20+ ounces of oil removable only by "disassembly" is only "significant" if you can posit a theory of how it gets into the sump. If it doesn't drain with the oil filter removed, I don't see how it goes past a filter with a defective valve into the sump.
As for the volume of oil in the filter itself, I'd think about it this way;
Imagine a container full of water and red dye #2. It is sealed except for a hollow tube extending from inside the container to several feet below. If you barely submerge this container in a tub of water 2 or 3 feet deep with the tube extending to the bottom of the tub, how much red water will flow into the tub? Virtually none, unless and until you raise the container above the surface of the tub water sufficient to make the downward pressure on the column of water in the tube greater than the pressure at the bottom of the tub.
I believe the difference in oil level you've observed has got to be attributed to a difference in oil temp.
Ask yourself this, if the A-D valve is not required, why is one provided and played up as a critical component by manufacturers and required by governing standards?
An engine is not a sealed container. Each cylinder head is vented for crankcase pressure relief. I'm not saying all the oil is draining back into the sump but a significant amount (more than a couple ounces) appears that it is and with "testing" I hope to verify this. The oil filter is above the bottom of the sump and oil contained within it (and oil higher than the filter connected to it via the oil gantries), thus will, if not restricted from doing so by the A-D valve, drain back into the sump and raise the oil level in the sight glass. I'm not making this up, do a search and you will find it is discussed and analyzed extensively. The foregoing is not to preclude expansion of the oil as being a contributing factor. However, when cold, I have not observed the oil level to diminish appreciably.
Last edited by skokievtr; 08-11-2010 at 10:03 PM.
08-11-2010, 10:25 PM
#36
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I had almost the same problem with mine for 2 oil changes in a row until I realized I was using REPSOL oil from 1L bottles instead of my normal M1 from 1 quart bottles. Now that's not the OP's problem, he already said he didn't change oil brands... But when you have eliminated all of the options, whatever's left is the solution even if it's "impossible"
08-12-2010, 06:54 AM
#37
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This will be my final response.
Ask yourself this, if the A-D valve is not required, why is one provided and played up as a critical component by manufacturers and required by governing standards?
An engine is not a sealed container. Each cylinder head is vented for crankcase pressure relief. I'm not saying all the oil is draining back into the sump but a significant amount (more than a couple ounces) appears that it is and with "testing" I hope to verify this. The oil filter is above the bottom of the sump and oil contained within it (and oil higher than the filter connected to it via the oil gantries), thus will, if not restricted from doing so by the A-D valve, drain back into the sump and raise the oil level in the sight glass. I'm not making this up, do a search and you will find it is discussed and analyzed extensively. The foregoing is not to preclude expansion of the oil as being a contributing factor. However, when cold, I have not observed the oil level to diminish appreciably.
Ask yourself this, if the A-D valve is not required, why is one provided and played up as a critical component by manufacturers and required by governing standards?
An engine is not a sealed container. Each cylinder head is vented for crankcase pressure relief. I'm not saying all the oil is draining back into the sump but a significant amount (more than a couple ounces) appears that it is and with "testing" I hope to verify this. The oil filter is above the bottom of the sump and oil contained within it (and oil higher than the filter connected to it via the oil gantries), thus will, if not restricted from doing so by the A-D valve, drain back into the sump and raise the oil level in the sight glass. I'm not making this up, do a search and you will find it is discussed and analyzed extensively. The foregoing is not to preclude expansion of the oil as being a contributing factor. However, when cold, I have not observed the oil level to diminish appreciably.
even though 2 bad filter seems unlikely putting a stock filter on would confirm it pretty quick.
tim
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