Lightened flywheel and no cush drive. Good idea?
05-09-2014, 12:16 AM
#1
Rex Kramer-Thrill Seeker
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Brookfield, WI
Posts: 2,312
Lightened flywheel and no cush drive. Good idea?
I have the engine cover off, and about to pull my flywheel, so I can send it to Erik for a spin on his lathe and just as I was about to use the flywheel puller, I had a thought (yes, you guys did just hear gears grinding 
). I am putting a set of custom wheels on my Superhawk, of which, the rear wheel has no cush drive. The sprocket is mounted solid to the wheel.
The rear wheel is made for a RC-51 (SP1 or SP2, not exactly sure as of yet), so I started searching the interwebs for info on big V-Twins and running no cush drive. I found half the answers saying it is fine to run with no cush drive and guys have been doing this for many years. The downside is rev matching while down shifting is a bit harder to do. And the other half of the answers saying it's not a good idea to run a wheel sans cush drive. Not many answers were explained as to why though.
My question to you guys, since rev matching will be more difficult at first, will lightening the flywheel make this almost impossible to match the revs then? There will also be no give in the driveline between the tire's contact patch on the road and the engine sprocket. Could someone eventually snap a chain?
Future plans to loose weight in the driveline are:
Custom wheels (working on now)
520 chain and sprockets
Electric water pump and removal of VTR water pump impeller
Would these future modifications also make it harder and harder to rev match? Is running no cush drive really that hard on the driveline parts? What do you guys think?
EDIT: Or, do I have it backwards? Could lightening the flywheel (and future mods) be easier on the driveline? Hmmm...
). I am putting a set of custom wheels on my Superhawk, of which, the rear wheel has no cush drive. The sprocket is mounted solid to the wheel. The rear wheel is made for a RC-51 (SP1 or SP2, not exactly sure as of yet), so I started searching the interwebs for info on big V-Twins and running no cush drive. I found half the answers saying it is fine to run with no cush drive and guys have been doing this for many years. The downside is rev matching while down shifting is a bit harder to do. And the other half of the answers saying it's not a good idea to run a wheel sans cush drive. Not many answers were explained as to why though.
My question to you guys, since rev matching will be more difficult at first, will lightening the flywheel make this almost impossible to match the revs then? There will also be no give in the driveline between the tire's contact patch on the road and the engine sprocket. Could someone eventually snap a chain?
Future plans to loose weight in the driveline are:
Custom wheels (working on now)
520 chain and sprockets
Electric water pump and removal of VTR water pump impeller
Would these future modifications also make it harder and harder to rev match? Is running no cush drive really that hard on the driveline parts? What do you guys think?
EDIT: Or, do I have it backwards? Could lightening the flywheel (and future mods) be easier on the driveline? Hmmm...
Last edited by CruxGNZ; 05-09-2014 at 12:27 AM.
05-09-2014, 01:03 AM
#2
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Location: CA
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I have always wondered about the cush drive but never looked into it or when I did there was no info in the forums I looked.....
It should be easier to rev match with the reduced parasitic drag from lightened parts. How you engage/disengage the clutch without a cush drive will need to be a lot smoother if there is any backlash to it but most of the v-twins that come to mind are belt driven with tensioners on the belt to keep them tight. The possibilities of a chain snapping come to mind but people do that with the cush drive still installed. Response would be different that's for sure as it would be more direct.....hmmm, just stuff that comes to mind. It would be highly recommended to run just a steel rear sprocket.
It should be easier to rev match with the reduced parasitic drag from lightened parts. How you engage/disengage the clutch without a cush drive will need to be a lot smoother if there is any backlash to it but most of the v-twins that come to mind are belt driven with tensioners on the belt to keep them tight. The possibilities of a chain snapping come to mind but people do that with the cush drive still installed. Response would be different that's for sure as it would be more direct.....hmmm, just stuff that comes to mind. It would be highly recommended to run just a steel rear sprocket.
05-09-2014, 03:37 AM
#4
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 972
I have the engine cover off, and about to pull my flywheel, so I can send it to Erik for a spin on his lathe and just as I was about to use the flywheel puller, I had a thought (yes, you guys did just hear gears grinding ). I am putting a set of custom wheels on my Superhawk, of which, the rear wheel has no cush drive. The sprocket is mounted solid to the wheel.
The rear wheel is made for a RC-51 (SP1 or SP2, not exactly sure as of yet), so I started searching the interwebs for info on big V-Twins and running no cush drive. I found half the answers saying it is fine to run with no cush drive and guys have been doing this for many years. The downside is rev matching while down shifting is a bit harder to do. And the other half of the answers saying it's not a good idea to run a wheel sans cush drive. Not many answers were explained as to why though.
My question to you guys, since rev matching will be more difficult at first, will lightening the flywheel make this almost impossible to match the revs then? There will also be no give in the driveline between the tire's contact patch on the road and the engine sprocket. Could someone eventually snap a chain?
Future plans to loose weight in the driveline are:
Custom wheels (working on now)
520 chain and sprockets
Electric water pump and removal of VTR water pump impeller
Would these future modifications also make it harder and harder to rev match? Is running no cush drive really that hard on the driveline parts? What do you guys think?
EDIT: Or, do I have it backwards? Could lightening the flywheel (and future mods) be easier on the driveline? Hmmm...
). I am putting a set of custom wheels on my Superhawk, of which, the rear wheel has no cush drive. The sprocket is mounted solid to the wheel. The rear wheel is made for a RC-51 (SP1 or SP2, not exactly sure as of yet), so I started searching the interwebs for info on big V-Twins and running no cush drive. I found half the answers saying it is fine to run with no cush drive and guys have been doing this for many years. The downside is rev matching while down shifting is a bit harder to do. And the other half of the answers saying it's not a good idea to run a wheel sans cush drive. Not many answers were explained as to why though.
My question to you guys, since rev matching will be more difficult at first, will lightening the flywheel make this almost impossible to match the revs then? There will also be no give in the driveline between the tire's contact patch on the road and the engine sprocket. Could someone eventually snap a chain?
Future plans to loose weight in the driveline are:
Custom wheels (working on now)
520 chain and sprockets
Electric water pump and removal of VTR water pump impeller
Would these future modifications also make it harder and harder to rev match? Is running no cush drive really that hard on the driveline parts? What do you guys think?
EDIT: Or, do I have it backwards? Could lightening the flywheel (and future mods) be easier on the driveline? Hmmm...
05-09-2014, 07:06 AM
#6
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SuperSport
Join Date: Oct 2012
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Yeah, for a street bike the Cush drive absorbs the pulsation of on off throttle, and changes in engine speed durring accel and decel. Riding with no Cush drive will tear up chains, sprockets and transmissions.
05-10-2014, 08:46 AM
#7
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The P.O. of my old Kawasaki 740 cafe bike had put about 1/8" metal shim pieces all around the rubber cush drive to take up the slack. It did help make the engine-rear wheel link much more solid and predictable.
05-10-2014, 09:46 AM
#8
ole dirty bastard
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05-10-2014, 01:25 PM
#9
Rex Kramer-Thrill Seeker
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The problem is that I do not have a cush drive on the rear wheel.
When I purchased these wheels, I didn't think having no cush drive on the rear wheel was that big of a deal, since it was made for a RC51. I guess these will be some cool and expensive wall decorations. Damnit. Live & learn.
I recently saw stock 2012 CBR1000RR wheels on eBay for ~$700. I was thinking about using these on the Superhawk. Just need to find out if it's even possible.
When I purchased these wheels, I didn't think having no cush drive on the rear wheel was that big of a deal, since it was made for a RC51. I guess these will be some cool and expensive wall decorations. Damnit. Live & learn.
I recently saw stock 2012 CBR1000RR wheels on eBay for ~$700. I was thinking about using these on the Superhawk. Just need to find out if it's even possible.
05-10-2014, 01:31 PM
#10
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Join Date: Apr 2013
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The problem is that I do not have a cush drive on the rear wheel.
When I purchased these wheels, I didn't think having no cush drive on the rear wheel was that big of a deal, since it was made for a RC51. I guess these will be some cool and expensive wall decorations. Damnit. Live & learn.
I recently saw stock 2012 CBR1000RR wheels on eBay for ~$700. I was thinking about using these on the Superhawk. Just need to find out if it's even possible.
When I purchased these wheels, I didn't think having no cush drive on the rear wheel was that big of a deal, since it was made for a RC51. I guess these will be some cool and expensive wall decorations. Damnit. Live & learn.
I recently saw stock 2012 CBR1000RR wheels on eBay for ~$700. I was thinking about using these on the Superhawk. Just need to find out if it's even possible.
05-10-2014, 03:00 PM
#11
Thread Killer
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IMO as long as you're not ham-fisted with the throttle or clutch, you'd be fine with your expensive wall decorations on the SH. The SH is a street bike with a cush drive to make it more useable for the ham-fisted riding public.
05-10-2014, 10:00 PM
#12
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I dont think no cush drive is mechanicly desireable or safe. I always put the sheetmetal shims to take up slack and on/off throttle lag.
I was even told by the mechanic of the race school that you shouldnt run race bikes without one either. (unless you are made of money).
What about machining something to fit? Like rubber gromets around the bolts or something.
I was even told by the mechanic of the race school that you shouldnt run race bikes without one either. (unless you are made of money).
What about machining something to fit? Like rubber gromets around the bolts or something.
05-10-2014, 10:35 PM
#13
Rex Kramer-Thrill Seeker
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I dont think no cush drive is mechanicly desireable or safe. I always put the sheetmetal shims to take up slack and on/off throttle lag.
I was even told by the mechanic of the race school that you shouldnt run race bikes without one either. (unless you are made of money).
What about machining something to fit? Like rubber gromets around the bolts or something.
I was even told by the mechanic of the race school that you shouldnt run race bikes without one either. (unless you are made of money).
What about machining something to fit? Like rubber gromets around the bolts or something.
Guys, I saw some cool wheels that, with some work, would fit the Superhawk. I now realize this might not be possible. To be honest, I paid $450 for both wheels. So, if I can't get them to fit, it's not a HUGE hit to my wallet, but damn, it still stings. Heck of a learning curve.
I'm going to contact RC Component wheels once again and see what was different between the wheels I have and the wheels with a cush drive. When I first contacted them, they wouldn't sell me any parts for my wheels, but maybe the cush drive is something that can be bolted onto the wheel? FYI- there are bolt on adapters on each side of the wheel (front and rear wheel) for different offsets/rotor & sprocket bolt patterens. Perhaps the cush drive from RC Components just bolts on and I can center the sprocket with a spacer? Just a thought at this moment.
05-11-2014, 01:30 AM
#14
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Join Date: Apr 2013
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Smokin', you hit it right on the head man. Good thinkin'. I was thinking the same thing. Or, possibly adapting the cush drive from the Superhawk. I just recieved my eBay chain alignment tool (chunk of anodized Al and a small rod parallel with the chain) in the mail today. We will see what can be done. I have a few ideas that might work. However, the parts might push the sprocket over to far to the left, where the chain will not line up with the engine sprocket and/or the wheel won't be centered.
Guys, I saw some cool wheels that, with some work, would fit the Superhawk. I now realize this might not be possible. To be honest, I paid $450 for both wheels. So, if I can't get them to fit, it's not a HUGE hit to my wallet, but damn, it still stings. Heck of a learning curve.
I'm going to contact RC Component wheels once again and see what was different between the wheels I have and the wheels with a cush drive. When I first contacted them, they wouldn't sell me any parts for my wheels, but maybe the cush drive is something that can be bolted onto the wheel? FYI- there are bolt on adapters on each side of the wheel (front and rear wheel) for different offsets/rotor & sprocket bolt patterens. Perhaps the cush drive from RC Components just bolts on and I can center the sprocket with a spacer? Just a thought at this moment.
Guys, I saw some cool wheels that, with some work, would fit the Superhawk. I now realize this might not be possible. To be honest, I paid $450 for both wheels. So, if I can't get them to fit, it's not a HUGE hit to my wallet, but damn, it still stings. Heck of a learning curve.
I'm going to contact RC Component wheels once again and see what was different between the wheels I have and the wheels with a cush drive. When I first contacted them, they wouldn't sell me any parts for my wheels, but maybe the cush drive is something that can be bolted onto the wheel? FYI- there are bolt on adapters on each side of the wheel (front and rear wheel) for different offsets/rotor & sprocket bolt patterens. Perhaps the cush drive from RC Components just bolts on and I can center the sprocket with a spacer? Just a thought at this moment.
05-11-2014, 01:50 AM
#15
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Join Date: Apr 2013
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Smokin', you hit it right on the head man. Good thinkin'. I was thinking the same thing. Or, possibly adapting the cush drive from the Superhawk. I just recieved my eBay chain alignment tool (chunk of anodized Al and a small rod parallel with the chain) in the mail today. We will see what can be done. I have a few ideas that might work. However, the parts might push the sprocket over to far to the left, where the chain will not line up with the engine sprocket and/or the wheel won't be centered.
Guys, I saw some cool wheels that, with some work, would fit the Superhawk. I now realize this might not be possible. To be honest, I paid $450 for both wheels. So, if I can't get them to fit, it's not a HUGE hit to my wallet, but damn, it still stings. Heck of a learning curve.
Mat, just saw something that may help. Kush rear sprockets. Check it out!
I'm going to contact RC Component wheels once again and see what was different between the wheels I have and the wheels with a cush drive. When I first contacted them, they wouldn't sell me any parts for my wheels, but maybe the cush drive is something that can be bolted onto the wheel? FYI- there are bolt on adapters on each side of the wheel (front and rear wheel) for different offsets/rotor & sprocket bolt patterens. Perhaps the cush drive from RC Components just bolts on and I can center the sprocket with a spacer? Just a thought at this moment.
Guys, I saw some cool wheels that, with some work, would fit the Superhawk. I now realize this might not be possible. To be honest, I paid $450 for both wheels. So, if I can't get them to fit, it's not a HUGE hit to my wallet, but damn, it still stings. Heck of a learning curve.
Mat, just saw something that may help. Kush rear sprockets. Check it out!
I'm going to contact RC Component wheels once again and see what was different between the wheels I have and the wheels with a cush drive. When I first contacted them, they wouldn't sell me any parts for my wheels, but maybe the cush drive is something that can be bolted onto the wheel? FYI- there are bolt on adapters on each side of the wheel (front and rear wheel) for different offsets/rotor & sprocket bolt patterens. Perhaps the cush drive from RC Components just bolts on and I can center the sprocket with a spacer? Just a thought at this moment.
05-11-2014, 01:52 AM
#16
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05-11-2014, 04:58 AM
#17
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I have the engine cover off, and about to pull my flywheel, so I can send it to Erik for a spin on his lathe and just as I was about to use the flywheel puller, I had a thought (yes, you guys did just hear gears grinding ). I am putting a set of custom wheels on my Superhawk, of which, the rear wheel has no cush drive. The sprocket is mounted solid to the wheel.
The rear wheel is made for a RC-51 (SP1 or SP2, not exactly sure as of yet), so I started searching the interwebs for info on big V-Twins and running no cush drive. I found half the answers saying it is fine to run with no cush drive and guys have been doing this for many years. The downside is rev matching while down shifting is a bit harder to do. And the other half of the answers saying it's not a good idea to run a wheel sans cush drive. Not many answers were explained as to why though.
My question to you guys, since rev matching will be more difficult at first, will lightening the flywheel make this almost impossible to match the revs then? There will also be no give in the driveline between the tire's contact patch on the road and the engine sprocket. Could someone eventually snap a chain?
Future plans to loose weight in the driveline are:
Custom wheels (working on now)
520 chain and sprockets
Electric water pump and removal of VTR water pump impeller
Would these future modifications also make it harder and harder to rev match? Is running no cush drive really that hard on the driveline parts? What do you guys think?
EDIT: Or, do I have it backwards? Could lightening the flywheel (and future mods) be easier on the driveline? Hmmm...
). I am putting a set of custom wheels on my Superhawk, of which, the rear wheel has no cush drive. The sprocket is mounted solid to the wheel. The rear wheel is made for a RC-51 (SP1 or SP2, not exactly sure as of yet), so I started searching the interwebs for info on big V-Twins and running no cush drive. I found half the answers saying it is fine to run with no cush drive and guys have been doing this for many years. The downside is rev matching while down shifting is a bit harder to do. And the other half of the answers saying it's not a good idea to run a wheel sans cush drive. Not many answers were explained as to why though.
My question to you guys, since rev matching will be more difficult at first, will lightening the flywheel make this almost impossible to match the revs then? There will also be no give in the driveline between the tire's contact patch on the road and the engine sprocket. Could someone eventually snap a chain?
Future plans to loose weight in the driveline are:
Custom wheels (working on now)
520 chain and sprockets
Electric water pump and removal of VTR water pump impeller
Would these future modifications also make it harder and harder to rev match? Is running no cush drive really that hard on the driveline parts? What do you guys think?
EDIT: Or, do I have it backwards? Could lightening the flywheel (and future mods) be easier on the driveline? Hmmm...
05-11-2014, 07:41 AM
#18
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Well, like any mechanical dilema, it CAN be solved with the right combo of ingenuity and money. The more you put in of one, the less you will need of the other.
Put up some pics of the rear hub w/o the sprocket.
Put up some pics of the rear hub w/o the sprocket.
05-11-2014, 08:28 AM
#19
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There are guys running Kush sprockets on converted thumper dirtbikes with good results. Australian company google it. Think they went through a redesign in the last year or two. May be why link is not working. Not pretty but may be small price to pay to use the sweet rims
05-11-2014, 02:56 PM
#21
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Join Date: May 2012
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Those Kush sprockets are interesting. It's got me thinking. The OM front sprocket has rubber on them and I always thought that was a noise reduction thing. Many of us change them for aftermarket front sprockets. I wonder how much difference that rubber makes as a cushioning effect, taking up the slack as well as noise reduction.
(:-})
(:-})
05-11-2014, 03:24 PM
#22
Rex Kramer-Thrill Seeker
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Those Kush sprockets are interesting. It's got me thinking. The OM front sprocket has rubber on them and I always thought that was a noise reduction thing. Many of us change them for aftermarket front sprockets. I wonder how much difference that rubber makes as a cushioning effect, taking up the slack as well as noise reduction.
(:-})
(:-})
Here's some pictures of the wheel (you can clearly see the adapters I was talking about earlier):
Last edited by CruxGNZ; 05-11-2014 at 03:26 PM. Reason: Pictures
05-11-2014, 03:45 PM
#23
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Oh yeh man, I like those wheels, very different You will have fun keeping them shiny though LOL
I don't like the idea of not having a cush drive, it is there for a good reason so yes consder those Kush sprockets and the OM front is most likely a good idea too. You could maybe put some O rings either side of the sprocket too on the bolts which may help a little, though the force your trying to soften is the forward motion, taking the slack as you let the clutch out so it's that twisting damping affect in the sprocket that is needed.
I look forward to seeing the pics of these wheels on the bike. Cool looking wheels.
(:-})
I don't like the idea of not having a cush drive, it is there for a good reason so yes consder those Kush sprockets and the OM front is most likely a good idea too. You could maybe put some O rings either side of the sprocket too on the bolts which may help a little, though the force your trying to soften is the forward motion, taking the slack as you let the clutch out so it's that twisting damping affect in the sprocket that is needed.
I look forward to seeing the pics of these wheels on the bike. Cool looking wheels.
(:-})
05-11-2014, 07:31 PM
#24
Rex Kramer-Thrill Seeker
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Check out these wheels. They are very similar to mine and look fantastic powder coated white. So, I'm leaning towards powder coating mine white. They will still be a bitch to clean, but they will look damn cool
EDIT: I was curious what was under the adapter, so I took the sprocket side off. I was hoping there might be one side of the cush drive machined into the wheel, but alas it's completely flat. Oh well. It was worth a look. At least the bearings are easy to replace.
EDIT: I was curious what was under the adapter, so I took the sprocket side off. I was hoping there might be one side of the cush drive machined into the wheel, but alas it's completely flat. Oh well. It was worth a look. At least the bearings are easy to replace.
Last edited by CruxGNZ; 05-11-2014 at 08:22 PM.
05-12-2014, 06:15 AM
#26
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Those Kush sprockets are interesting. It's got me thinking. The OM front sprocket has rubber on them and I always thought that was a noise reduction thing. Many of us change them for aftermarket front sprockets. I wonder how much difference that rubber makes as a cushioning effect, taking up the slack as well as noise reduction.
(:-})
(:-})
There is no shock load reduction capability on those.. . It is a solid steel sprocket with a ring of rubber that just barely touches the chain.
Last edited by E.Marquez; 05-12-2014 at 06:21 AM.
05-12-2014, 07:32 AM
#27
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Yeah that ducati sprocket is what you need. Or just go to a belt final drive. (joking).
Even if you get the cush bushings and have your hub machined to accept them you would be almost there.
I just want to let you know, good luck, we are all counting on you.
Even if you get the cush bushings and have your hub machined to accept them you would be almost there.
I just want to let you know, good luck, we are all counting on you.
05-12-2014, 12:56 PM
#28
Rex Kramer-Thrill Seeker
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Airplane is my all time favorite movie! Awesome.
After reading more about that Kush Sprocket, the design just isn't there yet. People are still having issues, even with the lastest version.
I'm going to order one of the Ducati cush drives I posted above. Then, replace the adapter on the wheel with one that accepts the six bolts on the Ducati cush drive and bolt it to the wheel hub. That should do it.
Once I have everything I need, I can hang the RC Component wheel on the back of the Superhawk along with the Ducati cush drive, center the wheel, make sure the rear and front sprocket are aligned, and measure for the thickness of the adapter.
The adapter should be easy to make. A guy at Speedy Metals said they would help me out getting a piece of metal the correct thickness. Then drill the adapter for the bolt patern on the RC Component wheel hub and also for the Ducati cush drive.
Anybody see anything I overlooked? I hope the adapter isn't too thick. I would hate to make this wheel weigh the same or more than the stock wheel.
After reading more about that Kush Sprocket, the design just isn't there yet. People are still having issues, even with the lastest version.
I'm going to order one of the Ducati cush drives I posted above. Then, replace the adapter on the wheel with one that accepts the six bolts on the Ducati cush drive and bolt it to the wheel hub. That should do it.
Once I have everything I need, I can hang the RC Component wheel on the back of the Superhawk along with the Ducati cush drive, center the wheel, make sure the rear and front sprocket are aligned, and measure for the thickness of the adapter.
The adapter should be easy to make. A guy at Speedy Metals said they would help me out getting a piece of metal the correct thickness. Then drill the adapter for the bolt patern on the RC Component wheel hub and also for the Ducati cush drive.
Anybody see anything I overlooked? I hope the adapter isn't too thick. I would hate to make this wheel weigh the same or more than the stock wheel.
05-15-2014, 09:03 PM
#30
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The problem is that I do not have a cush drive on the rear wheel.
When I purchased these wheels, I didn't think having no cush drive on the rear wheel was that big of a deal, since it was made for a RC51. I guess these will be some cool and expensive wall decorations. Damnit. Live & learn.
I recently saw stock 2012 CBR1000RR wheels on eBay for ~$700. I was thinking about using these on the Superhawk. Just need to find out if it's even possible.
When I purchased these wheels, I didn't think having no cush drive on the rear wheel was that big of a deal, since it was made for a RC51. I guess these will be some cool and expensive wall decorations. Damnit. Live & learn.
I recently saw stock 2012 CBR1000RR wheels on eBay for ~$700. I was thinking about using these on the Superhawk. Just need to find out if it's even possible.
I would mount the RC rims and have fun!
Yes it will be harder on the components associated with the drive train and your *** and lower back but I sure as hell would not use them as decorations!
In my 40+ years of riding m/c's I have never seen a counter shaft bearing fail.
If your not going to use the RC rims give me a shout I will buy and use them if there not too expensive!
SIRR1
