High tech batteries..
12-22-2009, 10:20 AM
#1
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High tech batteries..
There are now starting to be various Lithium Ferrous (also called Lithium Iron Phosphate) batteries hitting the market as replacements for Lead Acid..
When it comes to Motorcycle products I can find 3 on the market:
SpeedCell probably the best known.
tekbattery the most expensive (insanely expensive)
Turntech the cheapest.
From what I can tell they are all about the same, though turntech only rates theirs for up to 650cc, it is practically the same as the speedcell that is rated to 1000cc (actually it is .4 ah more than the speedcell).
So I have several questions on these, they have peaked my interest (I doubt I will be buying one, but still interested)
First, are they worth it for a street bike? (race bike, every lb matters, but street only somewhat)
Second, does one have to use Lithium Iron Phosphate cells? Can I build my own battery pack out of NiCad or NiMH cells and get a lasting result? (I know you can just build one that will work, but for how long? and if they last fine, why are we not doing this, 12v harborfreight battery packs and garage sale tool batteries are cheap)
When it comes to Motorcycle products I can find 3 on the market:
SpeedCell probably the best known.
tekbattery the most expensive (insanely expensive)
Turntech the cheapest.
From what I can tell they are all about the same, though turntech only rates theirs for up to 650cc, it is practically the same as the speedcell that is rated to 1000cc (actually it is .4 ah more than the speedcell).
So I have several questions on these, they have peaked my interest (I doubt I will be buying one, but still interested)
First, are they worth it for a street bike? (race bike, every lb matters, but street only somewhat)
Second, does one have to use Lithium Iron Phosphate cells? Can I build my own battery pack out of NiCad or NiMH cells and get a lasting result? (I know you can just build one that will work, but for how long? and if they last fine, why are we not doing this, 12v harborfreight battery packs and garage sale tool batteries are cheap)
12-22-2009, 10:32 AM
#2
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Not sure, but I think it's a matter of cranking amps, not amp-hours. I don't think you can get enough amperage from standard dry cells - ther must be a reason, or every one would already be doing it.
My Speedcell works perfectly.
My Speedcell works perfectly.
12-22-2009, 12:02 PM
#3
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hey lazn, i've been looking into these, actually because i want to build my own out of the a123 cells (which are able to handle really high loads compared to generic cells, but i digress)
the main reason i want one for my street bike is ease of maintenance. you can literally just unplug one of these quick and bring them inside your house to charge/store, and they charge quickly.
second, avoid the nicad/nimh batteries as they're prone to explosion if over charged, like being fed by your alternator.
ducati.ms had a really lengthy write up on lifepo4 batteries recently.
one last thing of note, you can run a total loss system with these batteries pretty easily, meaning removing your alternator completely (but thats over kill unless its for a hardcore race bike)
there are a few drawbacks, but mainly in their design and need for balancing etc, the ducati.ms writeup details it (i'll try to find the link)
oh yeah, 1 last benefit, they save alot of space, this is particularly nice because the battery tray and airbox is connected in my ninja 250, and to remove the carbs you have to move the airbox back. it doesnt move all that much with the oem setup. if i can get the battery tray to separate from the airbox, i can move the airbox back like 6" to make getting the carbs out SO much easier.
the main reason i want one for my street bike is ease of maintenance. you can literally just unplug one of these quick and bring them inside your house to charge/store, and they charge quickly.
second, avoid the nicad/nimh batteries as they're prone to explosion if over charged, like being fed by your alternator.
ducati.ms had a really lengthy write up on lifepo4 batteries recently.
one last thing of note, you can run a total loss system with these batteries pretty easily, meaning removing your alternator completely (but thats over kill unless its for a hardcore race bike)
there are a few drawbacks, but mainly in their design and need for balancing etc, the ducati.ms writeup details it (i'll try to find the link)
oh yeah, 1 last benefit, they save alot of space, this is particularly nice because the battery tray and airbox is connected in my ninja 250, and to remove the carbs you have to move the airbox back. it doesnt move all that much with the oem setup. if i can get the battery tray to separate from the airbox, i can move the airbox back like 6" to make getting the carbs out SO much easier.
12-22-2009, 12:09 PM
#4
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This is a topic I have been quite interested in. I have changed the battery in my bike to a lighter unit (forget the exact number now but I saved 2 lb) but it is nowhere near as light as one of these.
I could see one of these being good for one other reason (over and above the obvious weight saving). The greatly reduced dimensions would allow one to move the ECU and other relatively large electronics components from the tail section to teh battery box, thereby better centralizing the mass. Taken a step further, one could also look at re-locating the battery entirely (although in its current location it is extremely close to the center of mass).
I could see one of these being good for one other reason (over and above the obvious weight saving). The greatly reduced dimensions would allow one to move the ECU and other relatively large electronics components from the tail section to teh battery box, thereby better centralizing the mass. Taken a step further, one could also look at re-locating the battery entirely (although in its current location it is extremely close to the center of mass).
12-31-2009, 07:51 PM
#6
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A123 cells using LiFePO4 chemistry are an entirely different matter though as they are very stable and hard to kill or make them explode/burn... The three on Lazn's list use either A123 cells or generic copies of them...
01-07-2010, 10:41 AM
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Well, true to myself, I just ordered a Turntech 5.0 Ah battery. The price is fairly reasonable ($160) as is the cost of shipping it to Canada (quite a rarity; as an example, I just finished looking at handgrips on eBay and one company wanted $27 to ship them here!!!!!!!!). Anyhow, I checked with the chap who builds them first to make sure it was up to the job of turning over the lump and he said it should be fine (bike always fires up immediately, quite an achievement for a bike with almost 80K miles on it). The new battery will see me shed 5 lb from the one I currently run (Yuasa YT12A-BS, itself 2 lb lighter than the OEM unit) and the smaller physical size will alow me to re-locate some bits (like the ECU) in the space left in the battery cavity, helping to better centralize the mass by pulling weight away from the extremities and in close to the center of gravity.
With all of the lightweight bits and removed parts, I figure I am down about 40 lb compared to stock, a welcome improvement in the power-to-weight category.
cheers
With all of the lightweight bits and removed parts, I figure I am down about 40 lb compared to stock, a welcome improvement in the power-to-weight category.
cheers
Last edited by mikstr; 01-07-2010 at 10:59 AM.
01-07-2010, 06:49 PM
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The Speedcell site mentioned not placing them on the trickle charger. Are you doing the same with the one you bought?
Since you get cold weather like we do, I'll be interested to hear how it turns the engine over after a week out in the cold. If they work well, I'd gladly pop for one as I'm sick of dragging a cord to the shed for the winter for the charger.
Since you get cold weather like we do, I'll be interested to hear how it turns the engine over after a week out in the cold. If they work well, I'd gladly pop for one as I'm sick of dragging a cord to the shed for the winter for the charger.
01-08-2010, 03:02 AM
#13
I dont want highjack this thread, but Micky, maybe you can shave a few more grams by replacing your Helibar tubes with these CF tubes...lol
Looking at the Turntech website it looks like they charge 40 bucks more for european customers, for the same battery - plus shipping. That dont make any sense to me.
Looking at the Turntech website it looks like they charge 40 bucks more for european customers, for the same battery - plus shipping. That dont make any sense to me.
01-19-2010, 12:23 PM
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Got my TurnTech battery a couple of days ago and it sure is small and light. As the bike is in storage for the winter, the chap at TurnTech recommended I store the battery in the (cold) garage alongside the bike and charge it up once I`m ready to fire it up so that is precisely what I am doing.
I must confess that I was a bit concerned about the 5.0 Ah being too light-duty for the VTR but the larger Speedcell one is rated at 4.6 Ah and is recommended for twins up to 1200 cc so I should be good to go. Besides, my VTR always fires up right away. Needless to say the small size should allow me to move some parts (ECU) away from the rear underseat area. Subtle yes, but it all adds up.
I`ll keep you posted on how it all works out so stay tuned
I must confess that I was a bit concerned about the 5.0 Ah being too light-duty for the VTR but the larger Speedcell one is rated at 4.6 Ah and is recommended for twins up to 1200 cc so I should be good to go. Besides, my VTR always fires up right away. Needless to say the small size should allow me to move some parts (ECU) away from the rear underseat area. Subtle yes, but it all adds up.
I`ll keep you posted on how it all works out so stay tuned
Last edited by mikstr; 01-19-2010 at 12:26 PM.
03-02-2010, 05:41 PM
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03-02-2010, 06:03 PM
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03-03-2010, 06:09 AM
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Also, I am leaving for a one week business trip in a couple of days, have to test ride the 2011 sleds... I know, I know, it sucks but someone has to do it.......
cheers
01-11-2011, 01:30 PM
#21
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Just saw some examples from these guys at a motorcycle show in Michigan.
http://www.shoraipower.com/s-49369-V...uper-Hawk.aspx
Seems to be about twice the cost, but expected to last twice as long. The demo was so light, it felt empty.
http://www.shoraipower.com/s-49369-V...uper-Hawk.aspx
Seems to be about twice the cost, but expected to last twice as long. The demo was so light, it felt empty.
01-12-2011, 06:49 AM
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Just saw some examples from these guys at a motorcycle show in Michigan.
http://www.shoraipower.com/s-49369-V...uper-Hawk.aspx
Seems to be about twice the cost, but expected to last twice as long. The demo was so light, it felt empty.
http://www.shoraipower.com/s-49369-V...uper-Hawk.aspx
Seems to be about twice the cost, but expected to last twice as long. The demo was so light, it felt empty.
Also with the balancer, seeing as there are 6 pins, that means they have configured them as two strings of 4 in paralell (6 pins + the 2 poles make 8 indidual cells...) and that have been proven time and time again to have less lifetime than making them 2 in paralell and then stringing that to 4 in serial, which would mean there would be 3 balancing pins...
Ie this is a perfect example of paying more to get less... It works every time, raise the price and everybody thinks they are better...
01-16-2011, 01:55 PM
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Tweety, I have no idea what they are basing their claims on. I was pretty skeptical about them, but didn't know half of what you apparently do. For the price, I can get about 3 of a traditional battery instead. I take it you have stuck to the tried and true lead acid?
Lol 7moore7, I haven't lived in Michigan long (lived in Avondale, AZ) and that was my first bike show here. I only saw Japanese and American bikes there (some International bike show). No overpriced Italian machines there to drool over. Did at least get to meet Jason Britton. All my buddies wanted to do was gawk at the Harleys. I need new friends.
Lol 7moore7, I haven't lived in Michigan long (lived in Avondale, AZ) and that was my first bike show here. I only saw Japanese and American bikes there (some International bike show). No overpriced Italian machines there to drool over. Did at least get to meet Jason Britton. All my buddies wanted to do was gawk at the Harleys. I need new friends
.
01-16-2011, 02:16 PM
#25
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Tweety, I have no idea what they are basing their claims on. I was pretty skeptical about them, but didn't know half of what you apparently do. For the price, I can get about 3 of a traditional battery instead. I take it you have stuck to the tried and true lead acid?
Lol 7moore7, I haven't lived in Michigan long (lived in Avondale, AZ) and that was my first bike show here. I only saw Japanese and American bikes there (some International bike show). No overpriced Italian machines there to drool over. Did at least get to meet Jason Britton. All my buddies
wanted to do was gawk at the Harleys. I need new friends.
Lol 7moore7, I haven't lived in Michigan long (lived in Avondale, AZ) and that was my first bike show here. I only saw Japanese and American bikes there (some International bike show). No overpriced Italian machines there to drool over. Did at least get to meet Jason Britton. All my buddies
wanted to do was gawk at the Harleys. I need new friends
.I use A123 / LiFePo4 batteries... The same chemistry as the one's you linked to and the same as those discussed in this thread, but I make my own packs...
That was also what I referenced when I said "same chemistry, nothing new added"... Not SLA's... compared to SLA's they won't last 2x the time, but much longer than that if properly cared for... However comparing the packs in your link to SLA's there defintely are new things... And they will outlast a SLA by a mile, and end up costing you less in the end...
Comparing SLA's and LiFePo4's means SLA's are dead... It's that simple...
But comparing the pack you linked to the pack I made myself... Well their packs are overpriceda and constructed the wrong way, and subsequently will fail sooner... If you wan't hightech batteries, stay away from those and either do the DIY version, or get the others linked in the first post...
01-16-2011, 02:40 PM
#26
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Cool Tweety, thanks. I am in the middle of checking out all the posts you have put up regarding your DIY packs. I take it you still haven't had any problems unlike some of the other guys I'm seeing posts from? Yeah, sorry about the confusion. I was saying a longer life than the standard lead. I did like their battery housings though.
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