Little_Horse

I know this has been beat to death, but I just have a few q's. Everyone talks alot about modify their forks, but I just want to replace the fork oil. My manual doesn't detail the service at all, instead just tells you how to take the fork apart, so my question is.

Do you need to remove the fork from the tripple trees to drain the old oil?

Also I am looking at replacing my steering bearings to the needle style, where is a good place to buy those?

trinc

do them at the same time. pull the forks / clean and refill them ( you'll need to have the springs out ).

with stock shims i thought the 7w fork oil with 140mm air gap worked well.

now with the forks off you can remove the triple.

all ***** is the place for bearings !
http://www.goallballs.com/home.asp
tim

Little_Horse

thanks Tim, I guess I could of just PM you ha, .

trinc

my forks were just valved by greg if you want to see that feels like.


tim

Wolverine

I just changed my fork fluid yesturday. The stuff that came out was horrible. I used the silkolene 7.5wt as recommended by others on the board. 130mm air gap was the spec in the manual, so that's where I set mine. Be prepared to remove the fairings. Getting at the lower pinch bolt is very tight w/ it on. I also switched to the all ***** tapered roller bearings (last spring). Huge difference. The forks are still off now, I think I'm going to wait for Truckinduc's cct's before I put everything back together. I can't wait to feel the difference w/ new fluid.

Little_Horse

So big improvement over what you had before? So most likely even more for me. Although truthfully I have never noticed it being bad, but of course that probably because I don't know what is good. I will probably send my forks to Greg next winter, I need to save some bones for that.

trinc

i had them valved leaning more towards track than street & i haven't had them on the track yet... on a couple of street rides it's a lot better.

i thought the forks were just OK the way i had them setup but once i put a penske on the rear they were fitting each other.

tim

trinc

7.5w, it was recommended to run a 140 - 145mm air gap
- some racing outfit in UK did a bunch of testing ... somewhere on the web there is an article about it. also i remember reading an article from japan that had a write-up using the UK data.


tim

Little_Horse

thanks Tim I will start with your numbers first, I think we are about the same size so that would be a good baseline. We should go for another ride this summer, the wife is pregnant so I will be riding solo for awhile.

trinc

congrates !

yep, always up for a ride.


tim

Wolverine

What is your weight? Since they are still off the bike, I would be fairly easy to change my level. What difference would there be if I left it higher?

trinc

185 ish with gear.

as i understand it. the smaller the air gap the more the pressure will build as the fork is compressed. the force will act like a spring but only toward the bottom of the stroke. after the valves are properly set up you could play around with fluid levels. if you really want to dig into it PM greg as he is the forks guro...

tim

Fozzy Bear

This site has some useful info
http://www.ablett.jp/bikes/vtr/vtr_sus.htm

Im in the middle of installing gold valves at the moment. Technically easy but is a PITA gathering all the fiddly bits needed (eg 1.3mm drill bit and a torque wrench that goes down to 2.5ft/lbs)

trinc

thanks for posting the link. this was one of the writeups i was talking about. it's a bit dated as i think that race tech has redesigned their valve to work with the stepped rod ( to simplify the process ).

tim

chickenstrip

Interesting discussion here, guys. I admit that I haven't changed my fork oil in years and the I may not have been the most accurate when I did - I'll take advantage of the info here.

Have any of you attempted the damping rod grinding as described in the linked article? Opinions about gold valves versus grinding?

One last thing: Is there a better method for removing steering bearings than pounding on drift? That's what I've always used but it takes time and patience to get the bearings out - I'm looking for something faster/easier.

Thanks!

nath981

I have changed my oil without removing anything other than the fork caps, rods, spacers/springs and the pinch bolts and the bottom bolt. I used a floor jack to be able to lift the bike up and down as needed. Pull the axle out just enough to free up the right fork, remove the bolt from underside of fork and let it drain into a bucket. You can rinse out the fork with auto trans fluid if you want by putting the bolt in loosely and move the fork up and down, then remove bolt and let it drain and pump out more til all out.
then to do the left fork: put a rod/pipe in the axle hole from the right side just enough to hold the front up with the right fork and take the axle out and do the same procedure to rinse the left fork. complicated to explain but easy to do.

Caution: if you're not comfortable with raising and lowering you bike with a floor jack, you probably shouldn't try this. I am used to it because I never had any stands. I use the sidestand as a safety on left side by shimming and removing shims and stand on the other side with the floorjack. I also have t-rex sliders and sometimes put a strap around them and support from above beam as an extra precaution.

If you're going to remove the triples, you may as well take everything off. if you don't decide to , then at least see if there is any play and tighten if necessary so that movement is smooth and friction free.

Finally. is the alignment mark on the top triple clamp centered while riding and does your bike track straight with hands off riding?? if so, triples are probably straight.

thanks, nathan

Little_Horse

well with 45k miles and a very slight knock under braking, do you think my steering bearings just need an adjustment, or should I just spend the $30 and install the needle bearings?

trinc

a couple of comments:

always take your forks off to change the fluid. you need to pump them to get all the fluid out. i'd also pull the cartridge and spray down with contact/brake cleaner. i overfill my forks and slowly pump them until i can't hear any air going through the valve... then using my mityvac and a little adjustable tool i made i suck out the extra fluid.

i didn't grind the taper. i made a jig but in the end i didn't use it. i do see the benefit if your set at the firm side. i knew i'd end up having them valved & didn't want to do something that couldn't be undone.

head bearings:

on the few sets i've seen & what i've read honda doesn't pack the bearing very well ... & / or few people repack them at the proper interval.

swapping them out:
the bearing are easy, it's the races that are pressed on. the two in the steering stem are very easy to remove with a drift as honda put 2 indents to give good access. tap them evenly and slowly. flip them upside down to seat the new ones ( after they've been in the freezer a couple hours )

the race in the steering stem gives most people fits but i just cut through it with my dremel & cut off wheel. i used a chisel to spread it apart and lift it off. again, turn it upside down along with a pipe to tap the new one on ( you can freeze the stem & boil the race ). the old race may get stuck on the stem so having a split in the old one will make it easy to remove.

pack the new bearing with quality grease. i use marine grade grease so if any water gets past the dust seals it shouldn't wash out the grease.

tim

trinc

imo. since your pulling the forks just replace them. it's just a little more work and it's a huge improvement.

tim

Little_Horse

that's what I will do then, thanks again Tim.

nath981

yeah, I see, trinc's from the big O too, so you better do as he says or he'll ride over there at a high rate of fuel consumption, kick your ***, and steal away with your pregnant wife.

congratulations dad!

thanks, Nathan

trinc

i try & stay FAR away from beaverton

tim

skokievtr

I have not replaced the head brgs in my VTR yet but am thinking about it because it has 50K+ miles, though I've adjusted them and they don't seem loose or notchy. However, my forks are off to Greg and if I'm going to do it, the time is now. On the other hand, on other mc's I've installed tapered roller bearings in instead of the OE ball bearings, I've noticed less "feel" or sentitivity with the rollers versus the *****. This opinion has been mirrored in tech articles on the subject. As I never do wheelies or slam the front, which causes the ball races to "dimple" and feel notchy, I'm not sure other than for long term durability tapered RB are superior, and considering I've got 50k+ miles out of the OE ball bearings, durability has been good. Many current mc's still come OE with ball bearings, and most bicycles use them too for the increased sensitivity and responsiveness god old ball bearings impart (though ceramic ball bearings are making inroads, pun)

Little_Horse

I don't blame you... Ironically I try and stay far away from Portland

Hawkrider

Bret,

Your forks arrived today! I'm tearing them down tonight. I have an outstanding order for shims that should be arriving Monday but I'm certain I have just enough to get yours revalved. UPS/FedEx doesn't ship on weekends anyway, sooooo if you're going to order bearings do it now so they will be to you about the same time your forks get back.

Greg

skokievtr

Greg,

Yes I know, I tracked the shipment. How was my packing job? Not too complicated I hope. You hopefully should get the check tomorrow. I presume you got my email about how to pack & ship my forks back. Don't worry about getting them back to me before next Friday, as I probably won't have time untill the weekend to put it all together.

Do you recommend AllsBalls tapered roller bearing (TRB) over the OE ball bearing assemblies, and if so, why? Is there a detailed thread about changing the head bearings on the forum; I did not find one. I've read you use PVC pipe (what US size ID fits just for reference) for seal drivers but what do you use for driving the OE races off and new TRB races onto the 3-tree and into the head neck? I know about freezing the 3-tree for the TRB (and are there matching races) but do you need to punch off after heating the OE upper & lower race & ball bearing cups (or remove the races at all)? Or does the OE upper ball bearing cup & race just slip off? Also, after installation & going for a ride, do the TRB need to be readjusted to get fully seating?

Thanks

Fozzy Bear

Got a few questions for Greg (it sounds like he is the fork guru round' these parts)

I just finished installing the gold valves according to Racetechs specs but am somewhat underwhelmed at the result.
I weigh 210lbs , specified intermediate riding style. They said use the c35 setting (5x17mm shims) and a 1.3mm hole. 140mm air gap 5wt oil

I already had 0.95kg springs (got no idea what that is in imperial) again using racetech chart. With just the springs, the ride was pretty harsh. With the valves, the ride has gone back to basically what the bike was like when new (06 model) except for the excessive diving under brakes. I have read countless reviews/posts and people rave about how much better the front end is, so maybe I expect too much.

My questions are, how accurate is the Racetech setting guide? Do they err on the side of stiffness? Do the shims "wear in" and soften up a bit after a while? (only ridden about 20 miles so far)

I suppose I could remove one of the shims, but I'm a bit sick of the sight of fork internals so might wait a few weeks and do it when I replace the steering head bearings.

Fozzy

(I followed all specs to the letter, especially the torque on the shim stack nut, so am confident there were no errors in installation)

HondaJim

I changed to AllBalz bearings. I'm pretty good at it since I've done it on twelve bikes now.

Once you get the triples removed you're left with the outer races in the upper and lower neck, and the inner race/dust seal on the lower triple stem. A long punch or screwdriver will usually get the outer races out of the neck. If you look down the neck from above the bike you will see two indents in the lower area where the outer race seats at. (Not all Hondas, or other manufacturers for that matter, have the indent. If you don't, a drum brake adjusting tool works good for prying the old race out) Put the punch there, and working side to side punch the lower race out. Do the same from below the neck punching the upper outer race out.

The lower inner race is pressed onto the steering stem. Take a dremel with a cutoff wheel and cut through the inner race, using care not to cut the triple or the stem. It's not as hard as it sounds. You can tell when you're through the race. Then put a chisel in the cut and spread the race. It will slide off the stem. Remove the dust seal under it also.

Remove any old grease and dirt from the neck, triples and stem. Put the lower triple/stem in the freezer, along with the new upper and lower outer races. I usually let them set overnight. At this point you can reach in the area below the freezer and get a beer.

To install the outer races in the neck I use a blow dryer for heat. Blow through and on the outside front of the neck until the whole area is warm. It doesn't have to be burning hot, just warm to the touch. If you use a heat gun use care not to peel/melt stuff. Damn near impossible to do with a blow dryer. Remove one of the new outer races from the freezer (upper or lower, your choice where to start) and have the old one ready also. Place the new outer at the neck entrance, flip the old one "upside down" and place it against the new one. Using a large socket that mates with the diameter of the outside of the old race drive the two into the neck with a hammer. A claw hammer isn't real good for doing this. I have a brass hand sledge that works well. A deadblow hand sledge would probably work better. The hardest parts are a) getting an even start on the new race. If it starts crooked stop, remove it and start over. b) holding the new race, old race and socket with one hand and hitting them with the sledge in the other hand. It's not all that hard once you get the feel for it.
Be quick but don't hurry. The colder the outer race, and the warmer the neck the easier it goes. Drive the inner race home, move to the opposite end of the neck and repeat with the other race.
I've often meant to make a race installation tool. Seems it would be pretty easy with hardened steel all thread, washers and nuts. Put both new races in their starting area, place the all thread through the center, put nuts and washers on both ends and tighten until both races are flush. Then drive them home. Just never got around to it since I've had good luck with the method above.

Now you're down to the stem. Check the old inner lower inner race where you cut thru with a dremel. File/grind/sand the area that you will use to drive the new race on. Since you'll be flipping the old race upside down to drive that is the area that needs to be smooth. Using the blow dryer heat the new lower inner race/bearing assembly. Pack the bearing with grease of your choice. Remove triple/stem from freezer. PLACE NEW DUST SEAL ONTO STEM FIRST. This will really **** you off if you forget. Place the triple/stem on a solid surface that supports the bottom of the stem. Make sure the stem is cleaned and do not put grease/oil on it. Put the new lower race/bearings on, flip the old race and put it on, then using an appropiate sized piece of pipe that is longer than the stem and mates to the old race, drive the new race home. Make sure it seats fully against the dust seal. The old race will usually not come off by hand. Just take a screwdriver and spread the dremel crack open. It will then slide off.

Once you're reassembled follow the manual instructions about torque, side to side, etc. The only difference is I think you'll find you cannot torque anywhere close to the spec ball bearing setting. It will be way too tight. I usually go by feel and find what I think works best. Ride the bike a few hundred miles enjoying your new front end feel. Then retorque the bearings.

This method has worked well for me. I've done 8 bikes I've owned and some friend's bikes. Others on here may have some different/better ideas that can make it easier, but it's really not that hard. Just make sure your bike is supported pretty well. When you're driving the races in the neck it's not supposed to look like you're trying to ring the bell at the fair, but you're not tapping a nail into drywall either.

skokievtr

Thanks Jim,

It all comes back to be now. Its been a few years and I'm pre-alziemers.

BTW, did you buy dierectly from All ***** or thru another online site or local seller/dealer?

HondaJim

My local Honda dealer sells them. Same price as I can find anywhere else.