Engine is stuck (or seized)....But not from bad CCT
08-09-2009, 09:16 PM
#1
Member
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 54
Engine is stuck (or seized)....But not from bad CCT
Hi all.
I just picked up a 98 hawk with a stuck or seized engine from a friend. (some of you may have seen my wanted ad in the classified section for a new engine...)
He got it on a trade deal in its current condition, so I have no history on the bike. It went down on its left side is about all I know about it.
My friend had figured that the CCT had gone out, which caused the engine to be stuck or seized. He had it in his garage for the last year and never got around to checking it out. Then he sold it to me....
So, I pulled out the engine yesterday and started looking for problems.
(I dont know very much at all about these bikes, so any tips about anything would be helpful!)
-I drained the oil, and it looked fine. No metal flakes or signs of blown up engine components.
-Next I pulled the valve covers off and......the cams, cam chain, CCT and all other components on the top looked GREAT!!
Valves seemed good as far as I could tell from the top.
-I pulled the clutch cover off and took a look inside. Everything there looked great as well! I haven't taken the clutch yet. (maybe tomorrow...)
-I pulled the flywheel/alternator cover off and everything that I could see there was good. I didnt have a flywheel puller that fit, so it will be removed tomorrow.
So, any ideas as to why it wont turn over??
I'll pull the clutch and flywheel off tomorrow and then I'll have a better peak inside. If i cant find the problem there, I'll move on to pulling the heads and cylinders off.
But until then, who has some ideas?
-Could the engine have been running hot and when it crashed the engine shut off, which would shut down the coolant and oil flow, and then the excess heat had to go somewhere and cooked a crank or rod bearing? or cooked something in the engine?
-Maybe whan it crashed it damaged a bearing or threw a rod?
-Maybe it just sat for a long time and the pistons are just rusted in place (i wouldnt really expect this form a 98...)??
HELP.
I just picked up a 98 hawk with a stuck or seized engine from a friend. (some of you may have seen my wanted ad in the classified section for a new engine...)
He got it on a trade deal in its current condition, so I have no history on the bike. It went down on its left side is about all I know about it.
My friend had figured that the CCT had gone out, which caused the engine to be stuck or seized. He had it in his garage for the last year and never got around to checking it out. Then he sold it to me....
So, I pulled out the engine yesterday and started looking for problems.
(I dont know very much at all about these bikes, so any tips about anything would be helpful!)
-I drained the oil, and it looked fine. No metal flakes or signs of blown up engine components.
-Next I pulled the valve covers off and......the cams, cam chain, CCT and all other components on the top looked GREAT!!
Valves seemed good as far as I could tell from the top.
-I pulled the clutch cover off and took a look inside. Everything there looked great as well! I haven't taken the clutch yet. (maybe tomorrow...)
-I pulled the flywheel/alternator cover off and everything that I could see there was good. I didnt have a flywheel puller that fit, so it will be removed tomorrow.
So, any ideas as to why it wont turn over??
I'll pull the clutch and flywheel off tomorrow and then I'll have a better peak inside. If i cant find the problem there, I'll move on to pulling the heads and cylinders off.
But until then, who has some ideas?
-Could the engine have been running hot and when it crashed the engine shut off, which would shut down the coolant and oil flow, and then the excess heat had to go somewhere and cooked a crank or rod bearing? or cooked something in the engine?
-Maybe whan it crashed it damaged a bearing or threw a rod?
-Maybe it just sat for a long time and the pistons are just rusted in place (i wouldnt really expect this form a 98...)??
HELP.
08-10-2009, 11:58 AM
#4
Senior Member
SuperSport
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 524
Has it been sitting with the spark plugs removed ?
If so, the rings are likely stuck to the cylinder wall.
I've had good luck with a product called Breakfree in the past.
Squirt some in through the plug hole, let it sit for a bit and then try to turn it over with the alternator bolt.
Good luck
Kai Ju
If so, the rings are likely stuck to the cylinder wall.
I've had good luck with a product called Breakfree in the past.
Squirt some in through the plug hole, let it sit for a bit and then try to turn it over with the alternator bolt.
Good luck
Kai Ju
08-10-2009, 12:14 PM
#5
Fastest Color
SuperBike
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lithia, FL
Posts: 2,091
Has it been sitting with the spark plugs removed ?
If so, the rings are likely stuck to the cylinder wall.
I've had good luck with a product called Breakfree in the past.
Squirt some in through the plug hole, let it sit for a bit and then try to turn it over with the alternator bolt.
Good luck
Kai Ju
If so, the rings are likely stuck to the cylinder wall.
I've had good luck with a product called Breakfree in the past.
Squirt some in through the plug hole, let it sit for a bit and then try to turn it over with the alternator bolt.
Good luck
Kai Ju
08-10-2009, 01:21 PM
#6
Honducati
SuperSport
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Anaheim, CA
Posts: 809
Usually if a motor is badly overheated it will have a really nasty cooked-oil smell. Sounds like yours looks good and you didn't mention any death-odor, so I'm gonna agree with the other guys in regard to checking for stuck rings.
08-10-2009, 01:39 PM
#7
Member
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 54
I'm just about to head over to my shop to work on it, so I will know more later today.
Drew:
I dont know if it is seized. That is why I said it is stuck or seized.
I dont know what is wrong with it. That is why I started this thread...
All jokes aside, it is stuck and wont turn over and I'm not sure why.
Mr Toad:
It wont turn over by hand at all....
It wont even turn over with an impact on the alternator bolt. But I only bliped it for a second, as I didn't want to damage anything.
Kai ju:
The plugs have been in the head the whole time my friend has had it.
I'm going to spray some oil or Break free or something similar to try and free up the rings. Lets hope that's the only problem!!
RC:
Moisture could have gotten in...lets hope not.
jbaxx:
No death-odor. Again, lets hope for stuck rings.
Thanks for all the responses!!!
I'll post up what I find out later tonight!
Drew:
I dont know if it is seized. That is why I said it is stuck or seized.
I dont know what is wrong with it. That is why I started this thread...
All jokes aside, it is stuck and wont turn over and I'm not sure why.
Mr Toad:
It wont turn over by hand at all....
It wont even turn over with an impact on the alternator bolt. But I only bliped it for a second, as I didn't want to damage anything.
Kai ju:
The plugs have been in the head the whole time my friend has had it.
I'm going to spray some oil or Break free or something similar to try and free up the rings. Lets hope that's the only problem!!
RC:
Moisture could have gotten in...lets hope not.
jbaxx:
No death-odor. Again, lets hope for stuck rings.
Thanks for all the responses!!!
I'll post up what I find out later tonight!
08-11-2009, 10:40 AM
#11
Member
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 54
So yesterday I took off the clutch, and both heads.
I couldn't find a 22mmx1.5 bolt at any of the hardware stores in town, so the flywheel is still in place. I may go to the honda dealer and buy a flywheel puller or I'll swing by a friends moto shop and see if he has one that will fit...
Everything behind the clutch looked good.
Both heads looked great. Valves were all seated and all the cam lobes looked perfect.
The tops of the pistons looked fine, just the normal carbon build up.
So, even with the heads off, the pistons wont budge. I sprayed a bunch of penetrating oil around the pistons and let it sit for a while. Came back and tried whacking them a little and still no movement....
The pistons move a little bit side to side, like the should. But not up an down.
I think its starting to look like a crank issue.
I'll know more if I can get the damn flywheel off. I keep hoping there will just be something stupid easy that is binding it up.
Any advice from you superhawk masters?
I couldn't find a 22mmx1.5 bolt at any of the hardware stores in town, so the flywheel is still in place. I may go to the honda dealer and buy a flywheel puller or I'll swing by a friends moto shop and see if he has one that will fit...
Everything behind the clutch looked good.
Both heads looked great. Valves were all seated and all the cam lobes looked perfect.
The tops of the pistons looked fine, just the normal carbon build up.
So, even with the heads off, the pistons wont budge. I sprayed a bunch of penetrating oil around the pistons and let it sit for a while. Came back and tried whacking them a little and still no movement....
The pistons move a little bit side to side, like the should. But not up an down.
I think its starting to look like a crank issue.
I'll know more if I can get the damn flywheel off. I keep hoping there will just be something stupid easy that is binding it up.
Any advice from you superhawk masters?
08-11-2009, 10:42 AM
#12
Fastest Color
SuperBike
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lithia, FL
Posts: 2,091
+1, but that really doesn't matter if it doesn't roll over tonight just pull the heads and stick you hand in the holes and feel around for any spots on the cylinder walls that aren't slick as owl snot...that's where the moisture can be found...
08-11-2009, 10:45 AM
#13
Fastest Color
SuperBike
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lithia, FL
Posts: 2,091
So yesterday I took off the clutch, and both heads.
I couldn't find a 22mmx1.5 bolt at any of the hardware stores in town, so the flywheel is still in place. I may go to the honda dealer and buy a flywheel puller or I'll swing by a friends moto shop and see if he has one that will fit...
Everything behind the clutch looked good.
Both heads looked great. Valves were all seated and all the cam lobes looked perfect.
The tops of the pistons looked fine, just the normal carbon build up.
So, even with the heads off, the pistons wont budge. I sprayed a bunch of penetrating oil around the pistons and let it sit for a while. Came back and tried whacking them a little and still no movement....
The pistons move a little bit side to side, like the should. But not up an down.
I think its starting to look like a crank issue.
I'll know more if I can get the damn flywheel off. I keep hoping there will just be something stupid easy that is binding it up.
Any advice from you superhawk masters?
I couldn't find a 22mmx1.5 bolt at any of the hardware stores in town, so the flywheel is still in place. I may go to the honda dealer and buy a flywheel puller or I'll swing by a friends moto shop and see if he has one that will fit...
Everything behind the clutch looked good.
Both heads looked great. Valves were all seated and all the cam lobes looked perfect.
The tops of the pistons looked fine, just the normal carbon build up.
So, even with the heads off, the pistons wont budge. I sprayed a bunch of penetrating oil around the pistons and let it sit for a while. Came back and tried whacking them a little and still no movement....
The pistons move a little bit side to side, like the should. But not up an down.
I think its starting to look like a crank issue.
I'll know more if I can get the damn flywheel off. I keep hoping there will just be something stupid easy that is binding it up.
Any advice from you superhawk masters?
Also, I think I bought my 22mmx1.5 bolt at Ace Hardware here in FL...
08-12-2009, 02:44 AM
#14
Senior Member
SuperSport
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sunshine Coast, Australia
Posts: 963
How about the chain drives to the water pump and oil pump? Are they still where they are supposed to be?
Have you removed the starter motor to see if that assembly is a factor?
Any thoughts of gearbox problems? Can you rotate the rear wheel in neutral?
Careful when you pull the flywheel. It is an interference fit, and they can come off with a bang. Scared the crap out of me.
Have you removed the starter motor to see if that assembly is a factor?
Any thoughts of gearbox problems? Can you rotate the rear wheel in neutral?
Careful when you pull the flywheel. It is an interference fit, and they can come off with a bang. Scared the crap out of me.
08-12-2009, 03:12 AM
#15
COBB Member
Superstock
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NorthEast Connecticut
Posts: 292
Sounds like you're pretty far into it at this point, but, if ya haven't tried anything in the juggs yet, try a product called PB blast. (Power Blast) You can get it at most automotive parts sellers. Napa, Auto Zone, etc. Better than anything else bar none.
Give it a shot, let it sit overnight, Bingo! particularly excellent on exhaust manifold bolts, soak it down a day or so prior, like butter.
Good Luck with your project, just an aside,there is a complete motor on flea-bay right now, starting bid $499.00 no bids as of yet.
Give it a shot, let it sit overnight, Bingo! particularly excellent on exhaust manifold bolts, soak it down a day or so prior, like butter.
Good Luck with your project, just an aside,there is a complete motor on flea-bay right now, starting bid $499.00 no bids as of yet.
08-12-2009, 05:23 AM
#16
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SuperBike
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lithia, FL
Posts: 2,091
08-13-2009, 11:00 PM
#17
Member
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 54
How about the chain drives to the water pump and oil pump? Are they still where they are supposed to be?
Yep. They are all good.
Have you removed the starter motor to see if that assembly is a factor?
Starter motor is off and not the problem
Any thoughts of gearbox problems? Can you rotate the rear wheel in
neutral?
Transmision rotates just fine in neutral.
Yep. They are all good.
Have you removed the starter motor to see if that assembly is a factor?
Starter motor is off and not the problem
Any thoughts of gearbox problems? Can you rotate the rear wheel in
neutral?
Transmision rotates just fine in neutral.
08-13-2009, 11:11 PM
#18
Member
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 54
I went on an impromptu deep sea fishing trip for tuna for the last day or so, so not much work has gotten done. But now I have 30+ lbs of tuna!!
I got the flywheel off. My motorcycle mechanic friend/mentor had a puller that fit.
Everything behind the flywheel looked good.
I took the oil pan off and found a few chunks of metal in the bottom. Not sure where they came from but its not a good sign....
I took everything off that needs to be taken off in order to split the cases, and then I went fishing...
I'll get more done tomorrow.
It looks like I can disconnect one of the rods and can pull out one of the pistons before I split the cases. This way I can make sure its not just stuck rings.
But I'm thinking along the same lines as FLO2SupaHawk, "Oops, sounds like you may have spun a main at the crank...I think you'll have to split the cases to know fer sure..."
More info tomorrow.
I got the flywheel off. My motorcycle mechanic friend/mentor had a puller that fit.
Everything behind the flywheel looked good.
I took the oil pan off and found a few chunks of metal in the bottom. Not sure where they came from but its not a good sign....
I took everything off that needs to be taken off in order to split the cases, and then I went fishing...
I'll get more done tomorrow.
It looks like I can disconnect one of the rods and can pull out one of the pistons before I split the cases. This way I can make sure its not just stuck rings.
But I'm thinking along the same lines as FLO2SupaHawk, "Oops, sounds like you may have spun a main at the crank...I think you'll have to split the cases to know fer sure..."
More info tomorrow.
08-15-2009, 01:17 AM
#19
Member
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 54
No update.
I spent the whole day working on my mini race bikes (NSR50, KX65 motard, and Pitster Pro Motard 150), as I have practice tomorrow and a race on sunday.
First thing monday I'll get to the bottom of this mystery...
I spent the whole day working on my mini race bikes (NSR50, KX65 motard, and Pitster Pro Motard 150), as I have practice tomorrow and a race on sunday.
First thing monday I'll get to the bottom of this mystery...
08-15-2009, 01:26 AM
#20
Senior Member
SuperSport
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sunshine Coast, Australia
Posts: 963
If you have the flywheel off, then you will have seen the starter clutch as well, so no doubt that rules that out.
It may be the crank as suggested. I had a stuffed crank when I bought my bike, but it still ran. I could not get bearings that would allow me to grind the damage out of the crank, so I had to replace it. There was also excessive thrust clearance, but as the crank runs in the cases with no bearing, the only option was to manufacture some one-off thrust bearings for it. New cases were just too expensive.
It may be the crank as suggested. I had a stuffed crank when I bought my bike, but it still ran. I could not get bearings that would allow me to grind the damage out of the crank, so I had to replace it. There was also excessive thrust clearance, but as the crank runs in the cases with no bearing, the only option was to manufacture some one-off thrust bearings for it. New cases were just too expensive.
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