Clutch release cylinder pin & clutch line problem while servicing front sprocket
07-16-2010, 08:50 AM
#1
Member
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Milton, Ontario
Posts: 71
Clutch release cylinder pin & clutch line problem while servicing front sprocket
Disclaimer first: "weekend mechanic" here. Terminology and/or procedures may be waaay off! Still, I try! 
With this out of the way, here's what happened. It looks like my drive chain is gone. It's getting some tight spots. For little more than a year and some 13K kms that I own the bike I was lubeing it regularly at 500-600kms intervals. But it looks I wasn't very good at it. Either that or bike was sitting before I bought it, which is possible considering relatively low mileage. Me being overweight probably factors in too... Anyway, I read my Haynes a bit, checked some online tutorials and decided to give it one last attempt in servicing before replacing it. So, I opened (for the first time since I own it) the sprocket cover. Bike was on the rear stand, shifter in neutral, and I left release cylinder attached to the sprocket cover hanging on the side. The clutch release pin was sticking out a bit, as expected from tutorials but I read that I should just leave it alone. Well, as you would expect, the inside of the box was a real mess: gunk, small stones, dead bees, yeah... mess. I'm surprised that sprocket was even turning inside that mess. I started cleaning with WD-40, screwdriver and old rugs. It was going really slow, so after a while I decided to spray some more WD-40 over everything and take a short break while it disolves the gunk.
Went in the house, started doing something else and short break became not so short... After a while I remember to get back to my bike. Although I knew I MUST NOT touch my clutch lever while release cylinder is dettached, I DID IT - huh - while moving the bike around. Hey, when you hit fifties, your brain is not so sharp any more And also I put it in gear while lowering it from the stand (I am not sure if I was allowed to do this?!?) - all this while release cylinder was still removed, hanging on the side. But I didn't think anything of it at that point. Proceeded with cleaning... and then noticed that release pin (see the pic - right in the center) sticking out way too much!
Tried pushing it back in, but it wouldn't move! Not even when I asked nicely...
I think I have two separate problems now:
First, that pin must go back in, I guess. How?
Next, my clutch lever can't be operated any more. Pressure has built in the clutch line and I can't squeeze the lever any more. ???
I know solutions to this may look obvious to most, but again, I am not as experienced in wrenching, and specially not on my VTR. Other than lubeing the chain and changing oil couple times, this is my first attempt at it.
Any help would be welcome and appreciated. BTW, I did the search thing, but did not find much. Also re-read a bit from the Haynes. It does specifically say "not to operate clutch while release cylinder removed", but it obviously does not account for dummies, so it desnt offer any help in case you actually did it...
TIA
With this out of the way, here's what happened. It looks like my drive chain is gone. It's getting some tight spots. For little more than a year and some 13K kms that I own the bike I was lubeing it regularly at 500-600kms intervals. But it looks I wasn't very good at it. Either that or bike was sitting before I bought it, which is possible considering relatively low mileage. Me being overweight probably factors in too... Anyway, I read my Haynes a bit, checked some online tutorials and decided to give it one last attempt in servicing before replacing it. So, I opened (for the first time since I own it) the sprocket cover. Bike was on the rear stand, shifter in neutral, and I left release cylinder attached to the sprocket cover hanging on the side. The clutch release pin was sticking out a bit, as expected from tutorials but I read that I should just leave it alone. Well, as you would expect, the inside of the box was a real mess: gunk, small stones, dead bees, yeah... mess. I'm surprised that sprocket was even turning inside that mess. I started cleaning with WD-40, screwdriver and old rugs. It was going really slow, so after a while I decided to spray some more WD-40 over everything and take a short break while it disolves the gunk.
Went in the house, started doing something else and short break became not so short... After a while I remember to get back to my bike. Although I knew I MUST NOT touch my clutch lever while release cylinder is dettached, I DID IT - huh - while moving the bike around. Hey, when you hit fifties, your brain is not so sharp any more
And also I put it in gear while lowering it from the stand (I am not sure if I was allowed to do this?!?) - all this while release cylinder was still removed, hanging on the side. But I didn't think anything of it at that point. Proceeded with cleaning... and then noticed that release pin (see the pic - right in the center) sticking out way too much!Tried pushing it back in, but it wouldn't move! Not even when I asked nicely...
I think I have two separate problems now:
First, that pin must go back in, I guess. How?
Next, my clutch lever can't be operated any more. Pressure has built in the clutch line and I can't squeeze the lever any more. ???
I know solutions to this may look obvious to most, but again, I am not as experienced in wrenching, and specially not on my VTR. Other than lubeing the chain and changing oil couple times, this is my first attempt at it.
Any help would be welcome and appreciated. BTW, I did the search thing, but did not find much. Also re-read a bit from the Haynes. It does specifically say "not to operate clutch while release cylinder removed", but it obviously does not account for dummies, so it desnt offer any help in case you actually did it...
TIA
07-16-2010, 09:31 AM
#2
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
Well... Touching the clutch while the slave is dismounted isn't catastrophic, worst case scenario there is that you end up having to flush and bleed the clutch...
The problem here is that you have managed to combine several small ooopsies into one big freaking mess... First rule of wrenching... If it goes up on the stand in one piece, it comes down of the stand in one piece... No two ways about that... Moving it about before putting it together is not a good idea... And putting it in gear when disassembled wasn't a very good move either... There really is no need to do that to get it of the workstand, and there really was no reason to get it of the workstand until it was assembled again...
The reason the pin isn't moving regardless of how nice you ask is that you are featherweight compared to a hydraulic clutch... It's much stronger than you... The reason it came out, well, you shifted gears...
Now if you are lucky, you can get it in neutral, and the pin should then drop in to normal... Then you can push in the caliper for the clutch slave cylinder... Use a piece of wood and a clamp and carefully get it in... Once that's done, remount it, and if you are lucky it works...
Once that's done, I'd say it's a good idea to flush and bleed the clutch... But when doing that, remember the rule above...
The problem here is that you have managed to combine several small ooopsies into one big freaking mess... First rule of wrenching... If it goes up on the stand in one piece, it comes down of the stand in one piece... No two ways about that... Moving it about before putting it together is not a good idea... And putting it in gear when disassembled wasn't a very good move either... There really is no need to do that to get it of the workstand, and there really was no reason to get it of the workstand until it was assembled again...
The reason the pin isn't moving regardless of how nice you ask is that you are featherweight compared to a hydraulic clutch... It's much stronger than you... The reason it came out, well, you shifted gears...
Now if you are lucky, you can get it in neutral, and the pin should then drop in to normal... Then you can push in the caliper for the clutch slave cylinder... Use a piece of wood and a clamp and carefully get it in... Once that's done, remount it, and if you are lucky it works...
Once that's done, I'd say it's a good idea to flush and bleed the clutch... But when doing that, remember the rule above...
Last edited by Tweety; 07-16-2010 at 09:37 AM.
07-16-2010, 01:16 PM
#3
Member
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Milton, Ontario
Posts: 71
Thanks Tweety! Sometimes it seems like you're on call here
First, yeah, I should know better about moving bike around. It's not an excuse, but my garage is pretty small and I had to move bike away for a moment. That explains lowering the bike and, while doing that, accidentally pressing the clutch lever. And then, my garage floor slopes a bit, so whenever I lower the bike from the stand, I tend to put it in gear, just in case. I guess not the best idea in this scenario. Learned the lesson now, hopefully!
Wasn't able to push that rod back even in neutral (btw, shifted in neutral no problem). While doing this, since the two cover bolts also hold the clutch cylinder together and they were out, cylinder detached a bit from the cover. It all fell in place at the end, but I guess I have to replace that gasket now?!? Anyway, since this didn't work, I opened clutch bleeding nut (carefully with rugs and oil pan ready!). It looks I did it carefully enough: no spills. Also, opened cover on the clutch fluid reservoir on the handlebar (slowly!). No spills, again. Now I was able to push that rod and put the cover along with cylinder back in place. I will have to remove again to replace the gasket, but I would have to do that again anyway because in the meantime I inspected the chain and sprockets and all have to be replaced. But now I know how to handle this... which, I'm sure, will not prevent me from coming up with some new ooopsies
Oh, yeah, I remember: still have to bleed the clutch. I'll do that after everything - new chain, sprockets, gasket - is in place.
Thanks again Tweety, much appreciated!
First, yeah, I should know better about moving bike around. It's not an excuse, but my garage is pretty small and I had to move bike away for a moment. That explains lowering the bike and, while doing that, accidentally pressing the clutch lever. And then, my garage floor slopes a bit, so whenever I lower the bike from the stand, I tend to put it in gear, just in case. I guess not the best idea in this scenario. Learned the lesson now, hopefully!
Wasn't able to push that rod back even in neutral (btw, shifted in neutral no problem). While doing this, since the two cover bolts also hold the clutch cylinder together and they were out, cylinder detached a bit from the cover. It all fell in place at the end, but I guess I have to replace that gasket now?!? Anyway, since this didn't work, I opened clutch bleeding nut (carefully with rugs and oil pan ready!). It looks I did it carefully enough: no spills. Also, opened cover on the clutch fluid reservoir on the handlebar (slowly!). No spills, again. Now I was able to push that rod and put the cover along with cylinder back in place. I will have to remove again to replace the gasket, but I would have to do that again anyway because in the meantime I inspected the chain and sprockets and all have to be replaced. But now I know how to handle this... which, I'm sure, will not prevent me from coming up with some new ooopsies
Oh, yeah, I remember: still have to bleed the clutch. I'll do that after everything - new chain, sprockets, gasket - is in place.
Thanks again Tweety, much appreciated!
07-16-2010, 01:39 PM
#4
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
BTW... A hot tip if you for whatever reason decide to take all this apart again... Use a Ziptie around the clutch handle... Then the clutch mastercylinder blocks the passage, making the fluid and clutch slave stay where they are supposed to stay... And it also makes touching the handle a non-issue...
Doesn't help if you decide to shift gears in the middle though...
Doesn't help if you decide to shift gears in the middle though...
07-16-2010, 02:01 PM
#6
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
Yes... That puts a slight pressure on the slave, making it move out some when you unbolt it, but it also locks the fluid in the line, since the master cylinder blocks the other end... Nothing goes anywhere... Just unbolt the slave and hang it on the handlebar in a piece of string and start working...
07-16-2010, 02:24 PM
#9
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
Master = the one making the deciscions... Ie the one on the handlebar/handle... Slave = the one down below following orders...
But once hanging by it's fluid line, using a piece of string keeps the danged thing from being in the way...
But once hanging by it's fluid line, using a piece of string keeps the danged thing from being in the way...
07-16-2010, 03:05 PM
#10
Moderator
MotoGP
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gettysburg, Pa
Posts: 5,072
BTW... A hot tip if you for whatever reason decide to take all this apart again... Use a Ziptie around the clutch handle... Then the clutch mastercylinder blocks the passage, making the fluid and clutch slave stay where they are supposed to stay... And it also makes touching the handle a non-issue...
Doesn't help if you decide to shift gears in the middle though...
Doesn't help if you decide to shift gears in the middle though...
07-16-2010, 03:49 PM
#11
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
A last count I had 5 unmodified OEM parts left... I have since corrected 2 of those oversights...
07-16-2010, 04:10 PM
#13
Senior Member
MotoGP
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Clemente, CA
Posts: 3,451
Related question regarding chain replacement....All my previous bikes were shaft drive, and I'm due for a chain as well.
If you don't put it in gear, how do you torque the drive (front) sprocket nut? I'll use an air impact to remove it, but I'd like to torque it (spec is 40 ft lbs) after installing the new sprocket.
Is there a boss on the housing behind it that a screwdriver can be braced against?
If you don't put it in gear, how do you torque the drive (front) sprocket nut? I'll use an air impact to remove it, but I'd like to torque it (spec is 40 ft lbs) after installing the new sprocket.
Is there a boss on the housing behind it that a screwdriver can be braced against?
07-16-2010, 04:10 PM
#14
Member
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Milton, Ontario
Posts: 71
Just FYI, the mods pictured and listed there are only about half of the real list... Partly because I'm to lazy to describe them, partly because I have forgotten exactly what I have and haven't modified by now...
A last count I had 5 unmodified OEM parts left... I have since corrected 2 of those oversights...
A last count I had 5 unmodified OEM parts left... I have since corrected 2 of those oversights...
... in a good way
07-16-2010, 04:17 PM
#15
Member
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Milton, Ontario
Posts: 71
VTR, I haven't gotten to that part yet, but searched around and it seems either an assistant on the rear brake, or (I believe i read this on THIS forum somewhere) a 2x4 through the rear wheel 
07-16-2010, 04:22 PM
#16
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
Related question regarding chain replacement....All my previous bikes were shaft drive, and I'm due for a chain as well.
If you don't put it in gear, how do you torque the drive (front) sprocket nut? I'll use an air impact to remove it, but I'd like to torque it (spec is 40 ft lbs) after installing the new sprocket.
Is there a boss on the housing behind it that a screwdriver can be braced against?
If you don't put it in gear, how do you torque the drive (front) sprocket nut? I'll use an air impact to remove it, but I'd like to torque it (spec is 40 ft lbs) after installing the new sprocket.
Is there a boss on the housing behind it that a screwdriver can be braced against?
07-16-2010, 04:24 PM
#17
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
Actually thats a good idea... Just snug it up to the swingarm and nothing moves...
07-16-2010, 04:34 PM
#18
Senior Member
MotoGP
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Clemente, CA
Posts: 3,451
07-16-2010, 04:39 PM
#19
Member
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Milton, Ontario
Posts: 71
So, here is an update.
I went few staps back and opened up the cover again to clean some more and preparre for chain replacement. Well, it turns out that after cleaning everything properly and working out some Motul Chain Clean into the chain, it may be some life left there before replacing. Look at the inside cover now:
I am sorry now I didn't take a before pic.
Also, this gasket looks OK to me - little dirty from my hands - may only need a bit of grease?!?
And here is the sprocket after cleaning:
I'm not done with cleaning yet, but you can probably tell the difference from the pic in the first post above? Although, when I try pulling like this...
... it has a little play. Not much, maybe not even a 1/32nd but still. Is that OK? Bolt seems to be tight, though.
Any suggestions, advice, tips welcome.
TIA
I went few staps back and opened up the cover again to clean some more and preparre for chain replacement. Well, it turns out that after cleaning everything properly and working out some Motul Chain Clean into the chain, it may be some life left there before replacing. Look at the inside cover now:
I am sorry now I didn't take a before pic.
Also, this gasket looks OK to me - little dirty from my hands - may only need a bit of grease?!?
And here is the sprocket after cleaning:
I'm not done with cleaning yet, but you can probably tell the difference from the pic in the first post above? Although, when I try pulling like this...
... it has a little play. Not much, maybe not even a 1/32nd but still. Is that OK? Bolt seems to be tight, though.
Any suggestions, advice, tips welcome.
TIA
07-16-2010, 04:43 PM
#20
Senior Member
MotoGP
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 3,132
07-16-2010, 04:48 PM
#21
Destructive Tester
Superstock
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: N.E. oHIo
Posts: 263
How, exactly, does the transmission being in (or out) of gear affect movement of the clutch rod??
That's one of the silliest things I've ever read.
Rex
07-16-2010, 04:59 PM
#22
Former Superchicken Owner
SuperBike
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ft. Worth, TX
Posts: 1,607
07-16-2010, 05:37 PM
#23
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
Being in gear or not doesn't affect the rod, as long as it stays in that position... Changing gear however makes the rod move if the clutch slave cylinder is disassembled... And the most likely way of making it pop back into place is in neutral, where there is the least load on the least parts...
Feel free to disprove it... It's just observation from figuring out how to get the rod back in once a friend tried the same thing as dannyz...
Last edited by Tweety; 07-16-2010 at 05:39 PM.
07-19-2010, 07:05 AM
#24
Member
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Milton, Ontario
Posts: 71
Just a quick update. Cleaned some more over the weekend. Both chain and sprockets now look like brand new - sorry no more pics, my garage was in big mess while doing this. No noticeable wear on sprockets. ALL tight spots on the chain gone. Took almost entire can of chain cleaner, two tooth brushes and couple of rags. Definitelly not going with new chain/sprockets yet. BTW, was surprised I couldn't find a master link on the chain. Am I correct in concluding that this may be because this is the original, factory installed chain?
Put everything back, put some sylicone grease on the clutch rode before closing, drained old clutch fluid (was pretty dark already), filled up new fluid, bled the system. Went for a quick test ride and was surprised how much smoother my clutch and shifting were. Must have been some air in the system, or something.
Thank you all for help, tips and directions. Tweety, when I finally get to ride the Europe, Sweden will be in my itinerary. When I get to Malmo, you have a drink - or three - on me. But you may have to wait for this to happen for couple more years
Cheers!
Put everything back, put some sylicone grease on the clutch rode before closing, drained old clutch fluid (was pretty dark already), filled up new fluid, bled the system. Went for a quick test ride and was surprised how much smoother my clutch and shifting were. Must have been some air in the system, or something.
Thank you all for help, tips and directions. Tweety, when I finally get to ride the Europe, Sweden will be in my itinerary. When I get to Malmo, you have a drink - or three - on me. But you may have to wait for this to happen for couple more years
Cheers!
07-19-2010, 07:14 AM
#26
Administrator
MotoGP
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kempner, TX
Posts: 4,402
Yes OEM fitted chain is endless, with a riveted master link, as are many aftermarket chains. A properly installed clip type link is fine as well, but many seem to screw up the install, have problems and then blame the part... ..
07-19-2010, 07:21 AM
#27
ride it out
SuperSport
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NH
Posts: 745
So, here is an update.
I went few staps back and opened up the cover again to clean some more and preparre for chain replacement. Well, it turns out that after cleaning everything properly and working out some Motul Chain Clean into the chain, it may be some life left there before replacing. Look at the inside cover now:
I am sorry now I didn't take a before pic.
Also, this gasket looks OK to me - little dirty from my hands - may only need a bit of grease?!?
And here is the sprocket after cleaning:
I'm not done with cleaning yet, but you can probably tell the difference from the pic in the first post above? Although, when I try pulling like this...
... it has a little play. Not much, maybe not even a 1/32nd but still. Is that OK? Bolt seems to be tight, though.
Any suggestions, advice, tips welcome.
TIA
I went few staps back and opened up the cover again to clean some more and preparre for chain replacement. Well, it turns out that after cleaning everything properly and working out some Motul Chain Clean into the chain, it may be some life left there before replacing. Look at the inside cover now:
I am sorry now I didn't take a before pic.
Also, this gasket looks OK to me - little dirty from my hands - may only need a bit of grease?!?
And here is the sprocket after cleaning:
I'm not done with cleaning yet, but you can probably tell the difference from the pic in the first post above? Although, when I try pulling like this...
... it has a little play. Not much, maybe not even a 1/32nd but still. Is that OK? Bolt seems to be tight, though.
Any suggestions, advice, tips welcome.
TIA
I also just replaced my master link with a clip type like Greg N did and it held up great over the 450 miles I put on it this weekend.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
OldnInTheWoods
Technical Discussion
14
09-21-2013 09:09 AM
