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clunk clunk seize...help!!!

Old 12-31-2005, 11:12 PM
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clunk clunk seize...help!!!

Hey chaps
Cant belive it, I bought a really nice red 99 vtr with 31k on the clock, I had ridden it pretty lightly for 4 days and rolling down the pacific hwy in Sydney at 60kmph in 3rd and I hear a clunk clunk, i grabbed the clutch and pulled over, by this time the motor has stopped. I check the bike over from the outside and had to try the starter button....one more clunka and thats it, no more turning the motor..shes stuck tight.

I have read about it on the web now and realise its probably the cct...the bike is under warranty from the dealer, he is fine about fixing it but should I fit a manual tensioner while I am at it which one? ( read not much money uni student ). I really dont want this to happen again and would like some peice of mind. Has any one done the manual thing?

Also, while I am at it, the bike has a set of staintune slip on mufflers which sound absolutely fantastic with the baffles taken out ( pretty sure I made a Harley rider wet his pant when i blew past ), anyway the bike runs fine with smooth accelerating through, the website says they dont need jetting changes...so best to leave it alone or do I have to get the dyno jet kit and a k&n filter? I mean "have" to in the most fun grin ear to ear kind of a way!

Yes then with a new chain needed soon I will change the sprockets gearing also, as round here the 2nd gear could be shorter ( lots of hairpins ) plus the gear change 1-2 is not very nice and the less I use it the better. My question is about all the folk saying a 520 chain is fine...1000cc twin has gotta put some torque through the chain and if it says 530 are people getting similar mileage on 520's. What do I need to do to adjust the speedo after I make sproket changes, "speedo healer".

Ah many more questions but I will look the rest up, so wrapped to have found your forum, my eyes were square yesterday reading over 60 posts.

Cheers
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Old 01-01-2006, 01:37 PM
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At 31K, it's a fraction short of when the CCT runs out of life - they normally go at around 40K. From the description, you've probably now needing a decent engine rebuild - one of the valves is likely to have met the top of the piston. Once the chain stretchs to its maximum life, it's very easy for it to jump a tooth or two, causing things to interfere in the top of the engine. Make sure you get a full report from the dealer about what they found and replaced.

A manual one is not going to make any difference. The CCT runs out of life because the cam chain stretches. The manual one does the same thing as the auto - it keeps the chain tensioned. The chain is still going to stretch to the replacement point in exactly the same number of km regardless of whether you're using a manual or automatic system. Both have to keep the right tension on the chain so that it doesn't jump teeth. It is that combined tension and general motor usage that causes the chain to stretch. Neither tensioner type is going to make one bit of difference for the life of the cam chain as it's all about how you use the engine. The VTR is a high-torque engine, so it puts a lot of stress on cam chains. They stretch routinely. It's a simply a matter of fact on the way the engine works. All VTwins are like that (the old V4 honda engines of the VFs and early VFRs are also notorious for trashing cam chains). For the VTR, there's just no value in going with a manual system over the automatic - particularly as the dealer is going to be paying for an auto one anyway. Just get used to the fact that you'll be needing to change the cam chain about every 40K km because it's the nature of the bike.
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Old 01-01-2006, 03:34 PM
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I'm not a fan of manual CCTs. The auto ones do fail, but not so frequently as you might imagine. It's a wear part that needs replacment from time to time.

A manual CCT also needs to be adjusted from time to time to preserve chain life. It's a little bit of an art to set it right. Given those factors, I'm happy to replace the stock CCT a time or two during the life of the bike.

Other people swear by the APE CCT but I've been around since all bikes came with manual CCTs and I just don't see the need.

A jet kit, properly tuned, can give you a few extra horsepower. My bike is jetted to a good effect.

A K&N doesn't really seem to help and may lose 1 hp. This is an increasingly common result with newer bikes. If you like the way the bike runs and rides, I wouldn't do either.
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Old 01-02-2006, 01:06 AM
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Re: clunk clunk seize...help!!!

Thanks for your advice about sticking possibly with the acct's, I have heard of a guy who had three go on his bike over 80k or so, that gotta be bad luck, hate to be his pillion if he had a short wick for the third one.

When I said the bike has done 31k, i did mean 31000 kilometres, regarding engine work that should be done after this breakdown, what should I make sure that the mechanic does, like the warranty covers it but should be checked and does it mean the cam chain needs replacing? Cheers
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Old 01-02-2006, 08:10 AM
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Unfortunately, you'll probably have little control over this, it being a warranty job. Cam chains are evaluated by how much they have stretched. Yours won't be replaced unless it is obviously damaged or has stretched beyond the service limit.

You should know that Honda actually calls the ramp (under the CCT) the CCT and calls the actual item we think of as the CCT, something else, the "tensioner lifter."
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Old 01-02-2006, 10:16 AM
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I thought the life on the CCTs was somethink like 14-15K. That's why I switched to APE and they work great for me. I only adjusted the rear one once in the past 6k miles, the front one didn't need any adjustment.
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Old 01-02-2006, 09:05 PM
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CCTs only have a life as long as that of the cam chain. The auto versions use a ratchet internally so that they only extend. Once the cam chain has stretched so that the CCT is at it's max extent, then you need a new chain and a new CCT.

There are cases where a CCT is a little faulty. The ones on the early model Blackbirds are notorious for getting noisy at about 6K miles. This is a design fault, but doesn't cause any cam chain life issues. You could ride the bike until the cam chain has stretched and then just replace the lot again. The typical fix in the XX world is to buy the CCT from the European X11, which is basically a naked blackbird. They changed the design so now it doesn't rattle. Saying that all auto CCTs are faulty is just wrong. Treat it as a case by case basis. Most of the time when they get noisy earlier than expected, it's because the owner is very hard on the throttle, which results in faster stretching of the chain, just like the drive chain.
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Old 01-02-2006, 09:15 PM
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If this were true, you couldn't replace it and solve the problem. Cam chains generally last a good long time. They're bathed in oil, in a clean environment and not overtaxed in load.

The problem with Honda CCTs has to do with the ratcheting mechanism failing to hold the plunger in place. It backs off under load. That's why -- early in the failure -- it'll be ticking when you shut off, but not when you start it later.
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Old 01-02-2006, 11:37 PM
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As someone that has had the same issues as above, I disagree. I was lucky that I caught mine just before valves hit the piston, but it did jump one tooth on the rear intake side. Pulling it apart, there was no adjustment left to go on the tensioner and the chain was out of spec. Back in the old days of the oz VTR list, there were at least a dozen other bikes that all went at around the same kilometer mark. Similarly, there were a lot of bikes on the former RLZ list too that all went out of spec at around the same sort of mileage.

The VTR motor has two distinctive issues in it's history, the reg/rec and the cam chain. Almost all V-twins that run chains have the same issue. They put a lot more stress on the chain compared to an I-4 (I know several XXs well over 100K miles and never even touched the cam chain, other than to replace the stock noisy CCT).
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Old 01-03-2006, 07:00 AM
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We don't disagree on the idea that cam chains wear out, just on whether or not that is the cause of most CCT failures.
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Old 01-04-2006, 03:03 PM
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Re: clunk clunk seize...help!!!

There have been support groups started for less victims than the cct has taken, it seems people who have had one fail on the vtr are everywhere, many have had multiple run ins. The mechanic confirmed yesterday that it was the front cyclinder which has gone and he will replace it under warranty...lucky.. he also used to race one in the v twin class in 99, and back then he was telling me they used to put a bolt like those found on chain tensioners in Mx bikes, putting it behind the tensioner so that if the spring fails the tension does not release and cause the chain to jump a tooth or two, does anybody know about this, when i get some more info from the mechanic I will post it for all, apparantly it doesnt stop the srping failing it just stops the damage when it does fail.
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Old 01-04-2006, 03:16 PM
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The CCTs do seem to have a high failure rate, but not a high instant failure rate.

I'd think the people who bent valves because of it number in the few dozens. If you have an obvious defect, and don't get it repaired, its not the fault of the defect that further damage occurs.
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Old 01-04-2006, 03:24 PM
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Re: clunk clunk seize...help!!!

I guess I am one of those dozen, and only having ridden the bike for 4 days and not having an engine noise to compare it too ( my fault ) I thought al was well, I had a mechanic listen to it and he said it sounded good. The only warning I got was 2 clunks and as I grabbed the clutch it stalled. When I hit the starter motor again it seized tight. It did feel very hard to predict and I am concerned that it will happen again and maybe i wont being at 3000rpm on a wide straight bit of road.
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Old 01-04-2006, 03:33 PM
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If a mechanic didn't hear it, it is likely that it wasn't making the noise. It's also likely that the failure was caused by a falure of the camchain ramp, which -- in a highly eccentric move -- Honda calls the "camchain tensioner." The thing we all know as the camchain tensioner is actually called the "tensioner lifter." Sheesh, Honda
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Old 01-12-2006, 12:44 PM
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Re: clunk clunk seize...help!!!

I figure why take the chance with the auto ones? I just replaced mine with the APE unit a couple weeks ago, and even with only about 8k miles (on 2003 bike) I could immediately tell the difference in the way it sounds while running. The change is an easy one and adjusting it shouldn't be too taxing. I followed the instructions somewhere on this site that instructs to remove the rear valve cover and it worked like a charm (Kudos to whoever wrote tht post).
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Old 01-12-2006, 02:16 PM
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Re: clunk clunk seize...help!!!

Hey all!
Picked up my bike after the head was replaced under warranty last night, already done quite a few k's, probably going a bit smoother after the timing being set right again. The mechanic has installed a bolt into the cct and the back which stops the tension winding out if the spring fails, thats what they did on their race vtr in 99, I will do the rear cyclinder myself and post a how to hopefully.
The dealer even threw in a new set of chain and sprockets...what a nice guy!
That said i dont think he wants to se me any time soon, cost him a bit.
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Old 01-12-2006, 02:18 PM
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Re: clunk clunk seize...help!!!

Originally Posted by Rufion";p=&quot View Post
Hey all!
Picked up my bike after the head was replaced under warranty last night, already done quite a few k's, probably going a bit smoother after the timing being set right again. The mechanic has installed a bolt into the cct and the back which stops the tension winding out if the spring fails, thats what they did on their race vtr in 99, I will do the rear cyclinder myself and post a how to hopefully.
The dealer even threw in a new set of chain and sprockets...what a nice guy!
That said i dont think he wants to se me any time soon, cost him a bit.
All I can say is I wish I were somewhere it was summer right now. . .
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Old 01-12-2006, 02:21 PM
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Re: clunk clunk seize...help!!!

umm so dont mention the canyon run yesterday with the sunsetting and nothing but walm breezes
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Old 01-12-2006, 02:24 PM
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Re: clunk clunk seize...help!!!

As long as you don't mind me drooling all over the forum it's fine. I'm actually kind of glad that the cold came when it did this year, I was putting off installing the CCTs and after posts like this one who knows what a little different timing might have done to my bike.
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Old 01-12-2006, 02:28 PM
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Re: clunk clunk seize...help!!!

you have to do some cct fix, when the spring fails your timing is noticeably changed...terminally, 2 bent exhaust valves marked piston etc, could be quite expensive and thats if you stay on the bike, it would lock the rear wheel if you didnt grab the clutch in time, what if you were on the limit somewhere...scary
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Old 01-12-2006, 04:48 PM
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Re: clunk clunk seize...help!!!

EXACTLY
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Old 01-12-2006, 05:17 PM
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I know what you mean Greep, it was so uncomfortable today as it dropped to a balmy.......78 degrees.






I just love winter!!!!
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Old 01-13-2006, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by superhawk22";p=&quot View Post
I know what you mean Greep, it was so uncomfortable today as it dropped to a balmy.......78 degrees.
Damn all you low altitude people! But, as a side note, us highlanders probably have more canyons to run than most lowlanders.
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Old 01-13-2006, 07:15 AM
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Too true Greep, I have to drive hours for some really nice twisties. But I can ride hours!
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