Technical Discussion Topics related to Technical Issues

CCT upgrade, cam sprocket position???

Old 12-14-2016, 09:57 AM
  #1  
Junior Member
Squid
Thread Starter
 
XrayHawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Ocala, FL
Posts: 15
XrayHawk is on a distinguished road
CCT upgrade, cam sprocket position???

So I'm upgrading my CCT's from stock to Kreiger's. I've got the rear cam cover off so I can see the positioning of the cam lobes to ensure that I'm at TDC when I rotate the engine. The cam lobes are pointing each other, RT mark is in the correct position in the timing hole, however, the RE & RI marks on the cam sprockets are not where they are supposed to be according to everything I've read. They are not completely opposite of each other. The RI on the right sprocket is about level with the top part of the cylinder head, the RE on the left sprocket is at 12 o'clock position. I've turned the engine counter clockwise numerous times now to see if this positioning will change and it doesn't.
To my knowledge this engine hasn't had any cam work performed in the past. I'm the second owner, 1999 model with 7k miles. It runs great so I don't think the timing is off. Is it possible that it's been taken apart in the past and wasn't put back together with the sprocket's in the proper positioning?? Any advice is greatly appreciated!! I've searched the threads and haven't seen anyone else with this exact issue.
Attached Thumbnails CCT upgrade, cam sprocket position???-img_1778.jpg   CCT upgrade, cam sprocket position???-img_1774.jpg   CCT upgrade, cam sprocket position???-vcm_s_kf_repr_832x624.jpg   CCT upgrade, cam sprocket position???-img_1777.jpg  
XrayHawk is offline  
Old 12-14-2016, 10:23 AM
  #2  
Rex Kramer-Thrill Seeker
SuperBike
 
CruxGNZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Brookfield, WI
Posts: 2,312
CruxGNZ is on a distinguished road
Your cam gears look to be aftermarket slotted gears. So, the previous owner did do some internal work. To set up your engine and cam timing properly, you will need a metric degree wheel like this...

https://www.amazon.com/Hot-Cams-CIK-...BRYAX56M45VB35

If you are positive that whichever cylinder you are working on is in fact at TDC, then the cam chain should be slack and you can swap the CCT's.

But, if it were my engine, I would really want to know how my cams are timed.

Here's a stock cam gear. See the difference?
Name:  20161214_123349.jpg
Views: 49
Size:  218.9 KB

I'll trade you my stock cam gears for your slotted cam gears. Then you don't need to buy a degree wheel and this will put your cam timing back to stock.

Last edited by CruxGNZ; 12-14-2016 at 10:42 AM. Reason: Amazon women on the moon link
CruxGNZ is offline  
Old 12-14-2016, 01:27 PM
  #3  
Thread Killer
SuperBike
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Geneseo, IL
Posts: 1,637
VTR1000F is on a distinguished road
Only because it's Christmas time, right Crux?

And if you're interested in swapping, Xray, you should swap with me. My stock cam gears are way more stock than Crux's stock gears.

Last edited by VTR1000F; 12-14-2016 at 07:51 PM.
VTR1000F is offline  
Old 12-14-2016, 01:58 PM
  #4  
Rex Kramer-Thrill Seeker
SuperBike
 
CruxGNZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Brookfield, WI
Posts: 2,312
CruxGNZ is on a distinguished road
I'm in the giving spirit, what can I say.
CruxGNZ is offline  
Old 12-14-2016, 02:38 PM
  #5  
Junior Member
Squid
Thread Starter
 
XrayHawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Ocala, FL
Posts: 15
XrayHawk is on a distinguished road
Haha thanks for the generous offers!
I'll hang on to the ones I've got, makes me wonder what else might be aftermarket inside this beast since the cams are. I'm somewhat mechanically inclined, but not enough to play around with cam timing. If I've got RT line showing in the timing hole and the cam lobes are pointing towards each other, shouldn't it then be at TDC in theory?
XrayHawk is offline  
Old 12-14-2016, 06:26 PM
  #6  
Moderator
MotoGP
 
Wolverine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gettysburg, Pa
Posts: 4,483
Wolverine is on a distinguished road
As long as you don't have tension on a lobe, ya should be good to go...
I zip tied my chain to each gear to ensure no skippy.
Wolverine is offline  
Old 12-14-2016, 10:46 PM
  #7  
Rex Kramer-Thrill Seeker
SuperBike
 
CruxGNZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Brookfield, WI
Posts: 2,312
CruxGNZ is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by XrayHawk View Post
Haha thanks for the generous offers!
I'll hang on to the ones I've got, makes me wonder what else might be aftermarket inside this beast since the cams are. I'm somewhat mechanically inclined, but not enough to play around with cam timing. If I've got RT line showing in the timing hole and the cam lobes are pointing towards each other, shouldn't it then be at TDC in theory?
Xray, if you haven't already seen this manual CCT installation guide, it is fantastic with lots of pictures and very detailed to help you along the way.
www.vtr1000.org ? View topic - Manual Cam Chain Tensioner Installation Guide (MCCT's)

Also, just because you have slotted cam gears doesn't necessarily mean you have aftermarket cams. Those slotted cam gears bolt up to stock cams and aftermarket cams as well.

If you are able to, I'd ask the previous owner what he all did with your engine.

Last edited by CruxGNZ; 12-15-2016 at 07:36 PM.
CruxGNZ is offline  
Old 12-15-2016, 09:30 AM
  #8  
Junior Member
Squid
Thread Starter
 
XrayHawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Ocala, FL
Posts: 15
XrayHawk is on a distinguished road
Thanks for that link Crux, hadn't seen that one yet. Yeah I'm going to see what I can find out from the previous owner. It had a tasty selection of aftermarket goodies when I bought it but nothing was mentioned about internal engine mods. (I would think that is a good selling point is aftermarket cam gears or anything else internally upgraded.)

So I'm at few different conclusions of what may be my situation:

a) Aftermarket slotted cam gears that have been slightly advanced or retarded timing wise for performance by the last owner.

b) My bike is slightly out of time due to still having the stock CCT's and the chain has been able to jump a tooth here and there over the years.

c) When these aftermarket cam gears were installed they paid poor attention to lining up the markings properly. Which I think is the least likely.

I really think the timing is set where its supposed to be. It runs like a champ but I think it gets less mpg than the average hawk. Possibly due to altered timing? Or full m4 exhaust w/ k&n and jetted? Or all the above?

I'm not able to mess with my bike until Monday or Tuesday due to work, but it's giving me a chance to do all this research till then. All the advice thus far has been super super helpful!!!
XrayHawk is offline  
Old 12-15-2016, 10:13 AM
  #9  
Moderator
MotoGP
 
Wolverine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gettysburg, Pa
Posts: 4,483
Wolverine is on a distinguished road
I really doubt your chain has skipped teeth just because it's auto cct's. The point of adjustable cams is to vary timing... so your marks will not line up for that reason. I'm going to venture to say a bit of time was involved getting them to where they are. Zip tie the chain tight to cams and swap the tensioners. Set proper tension and button her up.
Wolverine is offline  
Old 12-15-2016, 10:16 AM
  #10  
Moderator
MotoGP
 
Wolverine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gettysburg, Pa
Posts: 4,483
Wolverine is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by XrayHawk View Post
it gets less mpg than the average hawk. Possibly due to altered timing? Or full m4 exhaust w/ k&n and jetted? Or all the above?
All of thee above. Performance parts will do that...
You want killer milage, buy a scooter.
Wolverine is offline  
Old 12-20-2016, 07:03 PM
  #11  
Junior Member
Squid
Thread Starter
 
XrayHawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Ocala, FL
Posts: 15
XrayHawk is on a distinguished road
I changed out both CCT's and now I think I'm in trouble......


The changing process went smoothly, I did the rear CCT first, zip tied for security. Rotated the crank after a few times and pressure felt the same to rotate it, however, there is a little noise now where I can see the cam chain hitting the cam guide plate. I took the plate off after installing CCT to make sure I had 5-7 mm of slack between sprockets while adjusting. I erred on the loose side of 6-7 mm.
Repeated same process for front, I took the cam cover off to be able to zip tie and figured I'd check valves too. I've done everything step by step and I didn't hear any clicking sounds while changing them out. Cam sprockets are all in the same alignment as before and cam lobes all still match up the same too.
Now when I rotate the crank around it requires a lot less effort to do so than what it did before changing CCT's out. It seems to want to turn on its own while rotating a bit while rotating, and then it will require pressure again.

Is this normal?????? I'm hoping its just from less pressure now being on the cam chain guides. I'm sweating bullets...

The reason the generator cover is off in the video is because the crank bolt was seized up when I tried to remove and had to chisel it out. I did put the cover on while lining up for TDC to make sure all lined up correctly in the timing hole.
XrayHawk is offline  
Old 12-20-2016, 07:48 PM
  #12  
Moderator
MotoGP
 
Wolverine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gettysburg, Pa
Posts: 4,483
Wolverine is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by XrayHawk View Post
It seems to want to turn on its own while rotating a bit while rotating, and then it will require pressure again.

Is this normal??????
Yes. You are compressing a bunch of air and after the piston reaches the top of its stroke, the compressed air is pushing the piston back down creating the movement you are getting. I can't hear the noise you describe. It can be a bit un-nerving, but it seems you did everything right. If you hear a rattle after you start it up, they may need to be a little more snug. I did mine while it ran. Haven't touched them since.

Wait for a few more to chime in for some more confidence...
Wolverine is offline  
Old 12-21-2016, 01:01 PM
  #13  
Moderator
MotoGP
 
E.Marquez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kempner, TX
Posts: 4,253
E.Marquez is on a distinguished road
First.. remove the plugs so you can rotate the engine with more "feel"

Second, don't second guess///

Confirm the procedure... that is both valve covers off, cam timing marks AND cam lobes aligned when the appropriate flywheel timing mark is aligned center of the window.

While the chain tightness may be a bit of Grey area, a bit of feel or using a made up (in a good way) slack specification... Cam timing is NOT a Grey area, its not a judgment call, its either spot on or off, no middle ground to "judge"
E.Marquez is offline  
Old 12-21-2016, 03:04 PM
  #14  
Junior Member
Squid
Thread Starter
 
XrayHawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Ocala, FL
Posts: 15
XrayHawk is on a distinguished road
I've had the plugs out since I started the swap. Everything is still lining up correctly, I just started second-guessing myself when I rotate the crank now. Trying to find a logical reason why the crankshaft has a different feel to it now when I turn it...
XrayHawk is offline  
Old 12-21-2016, 03:54 PM
  #15  
Moderator
MotoGP
 
Wolverine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gettysburg, Pa
Posts: 4,483
Wolverine is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by E.Marquez View Post
Cam timing is NOT a Grey area, its not a judgment call, its either spot on or off, no middle ground to "judge"
Well, he does have adjustable cam gears so the marks are not 100% lined up the way everything he reads states they should be.
Wolverine is offline  
Old 12-21-2016, 07:06 PM
  #16  
Senior Member
MotoGP
 
7moore7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 3,867
7moore7 is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by XrayHawk View Post
I've had the plugs out since I started the swap. Everything is still lining up correctly, I just started second-guessing myself when I rotate the crank now. Trying to find a logical reason why the crankshaft has a different feel to it now when I turn it...
You'll still feel varying pressure as the cam lobes press against the valve springs... the springs will resist the rotation and then assist it as the lobe passes over. Much more noticeable on a v-twin because of the infrequent and uneven firing order.

Edit: The difference you're noticing could just be that the manual CCT's don't apply constant pressure to the chain, so there is less resistance/dampening in the system now so that you can "feel" more of a difference. In which case I'd venture into a career in pinball because I can't imagine it would be that noticeable...

Last edited by 7moore7; 12-21-2016 at 07:12 PM.
7moore7 is offline  
Old 12-22-2016, 08:13 AM
  #17  
Moderator
MotoGP
 
E.Marquez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kempner, TX
Posts: 4,253
E.Marquez is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by Wolverine View Post
Well, he does have adjustable cam gears so the marks are not 100% lined up the way everything he reads states they should be.
Yes I just noticed that... so that part is moot.. the rest is still accuret
E.Marquez is offline  
Old 12-22-2016, 08:17 AM
  #18  
Moderator
MotoGP
 
E.Marquez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kempner, TX
Posts: 4,253
E.Marquez is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by XrayHawk View Post
I've had the plugs out since I started the swap. Everything is still lining up correctly, I just started second-guessing myself when I rotate the crank now. Trying to find a logical reason why the crankshaft has a different feel to it now when I turn it...
Ahh, got ya.. "FEEL" is really hard to convey over the Internet.
You may be feeling the valves lightly kiss the pistons or just the drag as the cam lobes are opening and then being pushed away as the lobe goes over center.
Best I can say is confirm your crank timing marks, check the lobe orientation ..as you have no cam sprocket usable timing marks... your kind of doing an educated guess unless do it the "right" way with a timing wheel.
Honestly, if I had a new to me bike and I found adjustable cam sprockets not previously known about, Id not be starting the engine again until I checked cam timing. Out of curiosity more then anything, but to confirm they were set in a safe range as well.

Thats easy for me to suggest doing as I have the equipment, time and space... I get that its not an option for many..
E.Marquez is offline  
Old 12-22-2016, 09:23 AM
  #19  
Junior Member
Squid
Thread Starter
 
XrayHawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Ocala, FL
Posts: 15
XrayHawk is on a distinguished road
Yeah I'm kind of leaning in the direction of bringing it by a local shop with a timing wheel to check it. I think I'll sleep better at night knowing everything is exactly where it is supposed to be, no guessing about it. I reached out to the previous owner and haven't heard back yet.
XrayHawk is offline  
Old 12-22-2016, 07:14 PM
  #20  
Moderator
MotoGP
 
Wolverine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gettysburg, Pa
Posts: 4,483
Wolverine is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by Wolverine View Post
I'm going to venture to say a bit of time was involved getting them to where they are.
Think said shop will have the knowledge to confirm you're ok without messing with the adjustable cams?

I'd want them kept right where they are set, unless they have the ability to reset them on a dyno. This isn't something most shops have experience with so make sure you trust them...
Wolverine is offline  
Old 12-23-2016, 08:26 AM
  #21  
Moderator
MotoGP
 
E.Marquez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kempner, TX
Posts: 4,253
E.Marquez is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by Wolverine View Post
Think said shop will have the knowledge to confirm you're ok without messing with the adjustable cams?

I'd want them kept right where they are set, unless they have the ability to reset them on a dyno. This isn't something most shops have experience with so make sure you trust them...
Checking is not messing with.

No adjustments need be made, nothing changed to check.
Point is, he has an unknown cam timing setup, and with 2 hours of labor, a competent tech can provide him current cam timing and cam profile specs.
From there a few paint marks on cam sprockets and he has timing marks to be used for routine services.
E.Marquez is offline  
Old 12-23-2016, 02:55 PM
  #22  
Moderator
MotoGP
 
Wolverine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gettysburg, Pa
Posts: 4,483
Wolverine is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by E.Marquez View Post
Point is, he has an unknown cam timing setup, and with 2 hours of labor, a competent tech can provide him current cam timing and cam profile specs.
Actually, the point was... the fact that he may be taking it to a tech who's never seen adjustable cams.
Wolverine is offline  
Old 12-23-2016, 03:45 PM
  #23  
Moderator
MotoGP
 
E.Marquez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kempner, TX
Posts: 4,253
E.Marquez is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by Wolverine View Post
Actually, the point was... the fact that he may be taking it to a tech who's never seen adjustable cams.
Right, I get that, then you mentioned "messing with it"

You don't "messing with the adjustable cams? " to CHECK timing.
The tech will not be changing, adjusting or removing any part of the valve train to CHECK timing and lift.

Any semi competent shop with a tech that knowns how to use a timing wheel can CHECK the timing and lift, and confirm what cams are in it..
The procedure is as safe and non invasive as the owner turning it over by hand or running the motor, both of which have already been done with those cams.
If we were talking about ADJUSTING the cams id have the same concern as you... but putting a timing wheel on the crank end, and a dial indicator on the valve train is not "messing" with anything, not adjusting, heck the only thing loosened is covers and caps, plus the flywheel bolt.

I absolutely agree if he can find a Roger Ditchfield, Ron Hamp, or some other world renowned builder local ..do it.... But we are talking very basic service here.. you do not need that level of expertise to check cam timing.

Ok, dead horse we have both made our point. I don't think mine is in conflict with yours, but agreeing to yours (don't let Kimmy the apprentice try and adjust timing) and adding my opinion that CHECKING the timing is a basic technician procedure and can not be fucked up anymore then an oil change (which of course has been done..lol)

I'll leave it here.....to each his own....perhaps my opinion is based on I don't have others work or build my motors, and the folks I work with or around are quality techs.. I just don't have those personal experiences of having bikes worked on by hacks....So i forget according to the INTERNET and lots of first hand reports right here, Dealers are stealer's, most all doing wrenching in shops are monkeys with wrenches and should never be trusted.
E.Marquez is offline  
Old 12-23-2016, 03:59 PM
  #24  
Moderator
MotoGP
 
Wolverine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gettysburg, Pa
Posts: 4,483
Wolverine is on a distinguished road
Wolverine is offline  
Old 12-23-2016, 06:32 PM
  #25  
Moderator
MotoGP
 
E.Marquez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kempner, TX
Posts: 4,253
E.Marquez is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by Wolverine View Post
I am offended, that appears to be a high capacity Assault stick...I have been trigged and not must retreat to my safe space with crayons and stuffed bears.
E.Marquez is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
mikstr
Modifications - Performance
39
09-18-2012 09:37 AM
timvdr
General Discussion
1
08-08-2012 06:53 AM
dsevans
Technical Discussion
4
01-03-2009 10:47 AM
dsevans
Knowledge Base
11
01-03-2009 08:17 AM
L8RGYZ
Technical Discussion
9
09-26-2006 07:13 AM


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: CCT upgrade, cam sprocket position???


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.