CCT Advice
05-04-2012, 11:18 AM
#1
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Superstock
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CCT Advice
Hey guys,
Haven't been here in quite a while. Have a quick question on CCT's. I've got 21K on my bike and I've been saying that I was going to change the CCT's for a while now.
I put on one or two thousand miles on a year, mostly low RPM commuting. I have no desire to adjust the CCT's myself. How often do the manuals need adjustment and should I just go with the stock CCT's and change them out in another 14 years?
Haven't been here in quite a while. Have a quick question on CCT's. I've got 21K on my bike and I've been saying that I was going to change the CCT's for a while now.
I put on one or two thousand miles on a year, mostly low RPM commuting. I have no desire to adjust the CCT's myself. How often do the manuals need adjustment and should I just go with the stock CCT's and change them out in another 14 years?
05-04-2012, 12:02 PM
#2
Senior Member
SuperSport
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 700
They don't have a specified lifespan. Some fail at 20k, some fail at 5k, its all chance. Adjusting the manual units is easier than repairing the head. I haven't had to adjust mine in 6 months, so even at that rate once or twice a year is nothing.
05-04-2012, 12:24 PM
#3
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About how many miles do you go on an adjustment?
05-04-2012, 01:31 PM
#4
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I ride every day rain or shine, I've put about 5k miles on since February. I have almost 7k miles on my manual ccts and have checked them once last month and they were still where I set them the first time. There isn't a specified adjustment schedule, just don't ignore them for 5 years and you will be alright.
But absolutely change the oem to manuals. Look at what GTS is going through and you will see why.
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28067&page=2
But absolutely change the oem to manuals. Look at what GTS is going through and you will see why.
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28067&page=2
Last edited by aja; 05-04-2012 at 01:34 PM.
05-04-2012, 02:06 PM
#5
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Squid
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Denver, Co
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Whatever you do, I recommend that you do it soon. I have a 98 Hawk with about 21k miles, and the CCT failed around Easter. Take it from me, I pushed it a little too long and now I'm paying the price.
05-04-2012, 02:46 PM
#6
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You actually probably can ignore them for 5 and be fine... most people go much longer. You're probably looking at adjusting 20k miles or more...
Also, if you take care of your auto's using 8541Hawk's advice (don't idle on the side stand, don't snap the throttle shut, no extensive wheelies) you can use them for a decent amount of time. People have also busted their motors adjusting manuals incorrectly, so it's not necessarily the end-all be-all answer.
Also, if you take care of your auto's using 8541Hawk's advice (don't idle on the side stand, don't snap the throttle shut, no extensive wheelies) you can use them for a decent amount of time. People have also busted their motors adjusting manuals incorrectly, so it's not necessarily the end-all be-all answer.
05-04-2012, 02:58 PM
#7
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I check the manual CCT's in my VTR in the course of checking valve clearances. I do that every 24,000 km. The CCT's haven't required adjustment. Generally, once they've been installed and adjusted properly, if they're quiet, they're OK.
05-07-2012, 01:07 PM
#9
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I'm getting them replaced as soon as the Shadow comes out of the shop. But I have not ridden it yet this season except to the end of the road and back. My carbs must be gummed up, because at 6k it falls on it's face.
I guess I'll go with the manuals. It will probably be another 10 years before I get another 10k on the odometer.
I guess I'll go with the manuals. It will probably be another 10 years before I get another 10k on the odometer.
05-07-2012, 03:39 PM
#10
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Squid
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 27
You actually probably can ignore them for 5 and be fine... most people go much longer. You're probably looking at adjusting 20k miles or more...
Also, if you take care of your auto's using 8541Hawk's advice (don't idle on the side stand, don't snap the throttle shut, no extensive wheelies) you can use them for a decent amount of time. People have also busted their motors adjusting manuals incorrectly, so it's not necessarily the end-all be-all answer.
Also, if you take care of your auto's using 8541Hawk's advice (don't idle on the side stand, don't snap the throttle shut, no extensive wheelies) you can use them for a decent amount of time. People have also busted their motors adjusting manuals incorrectly, so it's not necessarily the end-all be-all answer.
05-07-2012, 04:12 PM
#11
Seasoned tech
SuperSport
Join Date: Apr 2012
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But absolutely change the oem to manuals. Look at what GTS is going through and you will see why.
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...t=28067&page=2
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...t=28067&page=2
05-07-2012, 06:55 PM
#12
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Join Date: Feb 2012
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my bike is at the mechanic right now for forkseals and cct's the mechanic is hesitant on putting in the manuals wants to put in auto's again. I don't plan on track days just everyday riding. i ride pretty hard now and then but nothing to extrenious. What woudl you recommend. I am not overly mechanically inclined so i am not sure i can maintain them. Just wondering what the consensus is on here. I am pretty sure i know but just wondering. The mechanic said that he has put manual's in before in other bikes and about a month later the bike blew up. So really looking for anything here.
05-07-2012, 09:44 PM
#13
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my bike is at the mechanic right now for forkseals and cct's the mechanic is hesitant on putting in the manuals wants to put in auto's again. I don't plan on track days just everyday riding. i ride pretty hard now and then but nothing to extrenious. What woudl you recommend. I am not overly mechanically inclined so i am not sure i can maintain them. Just wondering what the consensus is on here. I am pretty sure i know but just wondering. The mechanic said that he has put manual's in before in other bikes and about a month later the bike blew up. So really looking for anything here.
I installed my own CCTs and it was not too bad. If you can read a manual and several of the helpful posts on this site and follow directions you can do the CCTs. You do need a few tools, one of which should be a torque wrench. There are some challenging things. I think getting the bolts back into the front valve cover is one of the worst parts.
Adjusting the CCTs is easy. They will make noise when you start the bike. As it warms up the noise will go away. Adjust them with the engine warm and tighten then until the noise just goes away.
You will get the feel for it very quickly. Most of this stuff just takes some confidence, some intelligence, some patience,and knowing when to stop and ask for help.
05-07-2012, 09:49 PM
#14
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If nothing else, print out some posts describing how to install CCTs on the Superhawk and take them to the mechanic. The disassembly can be screwed up by guys used to CCTs on other types of bikes/engines. A mechanic who thinks he already know because he has done a CCT on an inline four or a twin might be surprised by the Hawk and you will pay for his lesson.
05-07-2012, 10:21 PM
#15
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I don't have a link to my thread but I do have a bike with 90K miles on it that has never had a CCT issue.... I have replaced them as a maintenance item like you are supposed to, well the first set I left in for longer.... 
Though I will probably go to manuals next time, not that I have an issue with the auto units, just I put enough miles on my bike that it is more cost effective.
So like I have always said, run whichever type of CCT you are most comfortable with, just know the limitations and down falls of each type or at least the type you are running
Though I will probably go to manuals next time, not that I have an issue with the auto units, just I put enough miles on my bike that it is more cost effective.
So like I have always said, run whichever type of CCT you are most comfortable with, just know the limitations and down falls of each type or at least the type you are running
05-08-2012, 05:18 AM
#18
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I printed out some instructions from here on how to install them. i gave him the service manual that i have for install. i even had a set of cct's that i gave him to install. would you lock tite the bolts and nuts on the cct's?
05-08-2012, 07:02 AM
#19
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Superstock
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One strange thing that used to happen; When I would stand it up on the nose and then drop the rear back down, the transmission would get stuck in what ever gear I was in. Then I would have to sit there and play with it to get it back down to first. I stopped doing that pretty quick.
05-08-2012, 08:35 AM
#20
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Snapping the throttle shut on over rev is the first big no no. There are a few reasons for this. First it is bad form on any bike. On any big twin or a bike with a lot of engine braking it is a good way to end up in the ditch. As the old saying goes, fast riders have slow hands.
All that aside, with this engine, if you snap the throttle closed on over rev (and in case you are questioning terms, over rev is when you pass the HP peak) you cause a massive load to be placed on the CCT which over stresses the CCT and can (or will) cause the CCT to fail.
Now for not letting the bike sit an idle on the side stand. I was told this bit of information from a Moriwaki tech in '97. At that time they knew more about a VTR than anyone else, even Honda as they were running the racing and development project. That is why all the speed bits, except for the ECU & Jet kit were made by Moriwaki.
I was told it had to do with the way the front tensioner got its oil supply. I have folled this advice from that time forward and have never had a CCT issue. In fact the only CCT that I have personally witnessed let you was while.....wait for it..... the guys bike was sitting on the side stand idling.
So you can believe it or not. All I can say is I have run auto CCTs for around 90K miles with no issues what so ever.
05-08-2012, 08:40 AM
#21
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Unlike the old air cooled days, there is no need to let the bike sit and "warm up" for extended periods of time.
I get on the bike, fire it up, then put my helmet and gloves on. By then the bike is ready to roll. Maybe I'm wrong but like I have said, I have 90K on my SH and it still runs just fine and I have never had a CCT failure, so just maybe I might be on to something.
05-08-2012, 10:10 AM
#22
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So anyone ever tear one of these failed CCT's apart to see what actually failed in it? Is it an oil starvation/lubricaion and wear failure? Or is it a mechanical failure from the chain just beating it apart? I think knowing what the fauilure point is would go a long way to figureing out for sure what causes the failures and how they could be prevented.
I am curious Hawk how chopping the throttle stresses the CCT more? What are your thoughts behind this? I really don't want to start another heated debate here, just trying to understand where this logic comes from.
I am curious Hawk how chopping the throttle stresses the CCT more? What are your thoughts behind this? I really don't want to start another heated debate here, just trying to understand where this logic comes from.
05-08-2012, 10:55 AM
#24
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I guess it's basic motorcycle class time or how chain driven overhead cams work....
When under power the crank pulls on the cam chain driving the cams. The drive side of the chain is tight and the CCTs basically have no load on them as they are just keeping the slack side of the chain from flapping around.
Close the throttle and now the cam chain drive must decelerate the cams which places the load on the other side of the chain and now the CCT must carry the load of keeping the cam chain under tension so it does not skip teeth.
Roll the throttle off and the load increases in a progressive manner. Snap the throttle closed and you place an instant load on the tensioner. On an engine with high engine braking (like most twins have and a SH has a lot of engine braking) or an engine that decelerates quickly, this can and does place a massive instant load on the CCTs.
Remember I said snapping it closed on over rev. Have you ever tried just snapping the throttle closed at 9K rpms or above on a SH? The engine braking is so high that the rear tire wants to lock up. How much load do you think that places on the tensioners?
As for what breaks when they fail, the most common cause is the spring breaking. What normally causes a spring to break? IMHO it would be higher than design loads and\or repented high stress.
So I stand by what I have said, if you want the auto CCTs to live a long life 1) Don't snap the throttle closed on over rev (which will not only save your engine but it is also very poor throttle control and will cause you to end up in the ditch) 2) Don't let the bike sit an idle on the side stand.
Both of these steps came straight from Moriwaki. Do I have documentation or "proof" nope, so you can choose to believe me or think I'm just making it up it really doesn't matter to me.
When under power the crank pulls on the cam chain driving the cams. The drive side of the chain is tight and the CCTs basically have no load on them as they are just keeping the slack side of the chain from flapping around.
Close the throttle and now the cam chain drive must decelerate the cams which places the load on the other side of the chain and now the CCT must carry the load of keeping the cam chain under tension so it does not skip teeth.
Roll the throttle off and the load increases in a progressive manner. Snap the throttle closed and you place an instant load on the tensioner. On an engine with high engine braking (like most twins have and a SH has a lot of engine braking) or an engine that decelerates quickly, this can and does place a massive instant load on the CCTs.
Remember I said snapping it closed on over rev. Have you ever tried just snapping the throttle closed at 9K rpms or above on a SH? The engine braking is so high that the rear tire wants to lock up. How much load do you think that places on the tensioners?
As for what breaks when they fail, the most common cause is the spring breaking. What normally causes a spring to break? IMHO it would be higher than design loads and\or repented high stress.
So I stand by what I have said, if you want the auto CCTs to live a long life 1) Don't snap the throttle closed on over rev (which will not only save your engine but it is also very poor throttle control and will cause you to end up in the ditch) 2) Don't let the bike sit an idle on the side stand.
Both of these steps came straight from Moriwaki. Do I have documentation or "proof" nope, so you can choose to believe me or think I'm just making it up it really doesn't matter to me.
05-08-2012, 11:23 AM
#26
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Well if you mean who doesn't let the bike sit and idle while they are off the bike. Me for one. Those that think it is all good also tend to be the ones who say that the CCT can let go without warning.
Unlike the old air cooled days, there is no need to let the bike sit and "warm up" for extended periods of time.
I get on the bike, fire it up, then put my helmet and gloves on. By then the bike is ready to roll. Maybe I'm wrong but like I have said, I have 90K on my SH and it still runs just fine and I have never had a CCT failure, so just maybe I might be on to something.
Unlike the old air cooled days, there is no need to let the bike sit and "warm up" for extended periods of time.
I get on the bike, fire it up, then put my helmet and gloves on. By then the bike is ready to roll. Maybe I'm wrong but like I have said, I have 90K on my SH and it still runs just fine and I have never had a CCT failure, so just maybe I might be on to something.
05-08-2012, 12:17 PM
#28
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See I try to ask a question in a non-attacking, non abrasive way and you just can't help but stab.
Close the throttle and now the cam chain drive must decelerate the cams which places the load on the other side of the chain and now the CCT must carry the load of keeping the cam chain under tension so it does not skip teeth.
So you don't think the cams trying to push open the valves actually slows them down faster than the cam chain would?
Roll the throttle off and the load increases in a progressive manner. Snap the throttle closed and you place an instant load on the tensioner. On an engine with high engine braking (like most twins have and a SH has a lot of engine braking) or an engine that decelerates quickly, this can and does place a massive instant load on the CCTs.
So how does the amount of engine breaking have anything to do with the cam, chain, or tensioner? They are simply opening and closing the valves.
Remember I said snapping it closed on over rev. Have you ever tried just snapping the throttle closed at 9K rpms or above on a SH? The engine braking is so high that the rear tire wants to lock up. How much load do you think that places on the tensioners? Honestly??? No more than on acceleration. And again how does the amount of engine breaking have anything to do with the cam chain?
As for what breaks when they fail, the most common cause is the spring breaking. What normally causes a spring to break? IMHO it would be higher than design loads and\or repented high stress.
The spring actually is not what keeps tension on the chain. The spring is very light and by itself couldn't keep much tension on the chain at all. If it were just spring pressure it’d have to be so much that it’d wear out the guides really fast. There is actually a ratchet mechanism that the light spring pressure pushes out when the chain is slackened, then won’t let it return so that there is no real pressure on it but it won’t allow the chain to slacken. So it’s the teeth on the ratchet mechanism that’s getting beat on, not the spring.
Close the throttle and now the cam chain drive must decelerate the cams which places the load on the other side of the chain and now the CCT must carry the load of keeping the cam chain under tension so it does not skip teeth.
So you don't think the cams trying to push open the valves actually slows them down faster than the cam chain would?
Roll the throttle off and the load increases in a progressive manner. Snap the throttle closed and you place an instant load on the tensioner. On an engine with high engine braking (like most twins have and a SH has a lot of engine braking) or an engine that decelerates quickly, this can and does place a massive instant load on the CCTs.
So how does the amount of engine breaking have anything to do with the cam, chain, or tensioner? They are simply opening and closing the valves.
Remember I said snapping it closed on over rev. Have you ever tried just snapping the throttle closed at 9K rpms or above on a SH? The engine braking is so high that the rear tire wants to lock up. How much load do you think that places on the tensioners? Honestly??? No more than on acceleration. And again how does the amount of engine breaking have anything to do with the cam chain?
As for what breaks when they fail, the most common cause is the spring breaking. What normally causes a spring to break? IMHO it would be higher than design loads and\or repented high stress.
The spring actually is not what keeps tension on the chain. The spring is very light and by itself couldn't keep much tension on the chain at all. If it were just spring pressure it’d have to be so much that it’d wear out the guides really fast. There is actually a ratchet mechanism that the light spring pressure pushes out when the chain is slackened, then won’t let it return so that there is no real pressure on it but it won’t allow the chain to slacken. So it’s the teeth on the ratchet mechanism that’s getting beat on, not the spring.
If the main failure is the spring breaking it’s probably more from the vibration and heat cycles fatiguing it, than the chain getting tight against it being the chain gets tight against the ratchets not the spring.
This is why I asked what the common failure is. If it’s the teeth on the ratchet mechanism break then it would be more likely that the failure is from the abuse of the chain or if the teeth get worn and rounded allowing it to slip then that would be more of an indicator of lack of oil lubrication.
Anyone have any broken CCT’s laying around they’d like to dissect or would be willing to send me and I’ll tear them apart to see the actual failure?
05-08-2012, 12:49 PM
#29
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If the main failure is the spring breaking it’s probably more from the vibration and heat cycles fatiguing it, than the chain getting tight against it being the chain gets tight against the ratchets not the spring.
This is why I asked what the common failure is. If it’s the teeth on the ratchet mechanism break then it would be more likely that the failure is from the abuse of the chain or if the teeth get worn and rounded allowing it to slip then that would be more of an indicator of lack of oil lubrication.
Anyone have any broken CCT’s laying around they’d like to dissect or would be willing to send me and I’ll tear them apart to see the actual failure?
I have seen about a dosen or so broken CCT's since I seem to be the resident mechanical helpline for my local area... I have seen springs in two or three pieces, and I have seen parts of the ratchet mechanism worn to the point where it backed out, with the spring intact... So that means the CCT's can fail from two cuases, overloaded and aged spring, and worn and oil starved CCT...
YES, closing the throttle puts a load on the CCT's, more than accelleration... When accelerating, the cam chain is loaded by itself, ie the chain is taut from the load and the CCT is basically just "holding still", no great load...
On decelleration or engine breaking, the chain is slack and moving around, meaning the CCT's take the load... This is typically where a failed CCT lets the chain skip... No load from the CCT's and the chain jums a tooth or two...
However, none of it is an unreasonable load... If you want to close the throttle from full, go ahead... But it's still not a great idea, both regarding bike control, and longevity of a lot of engine parts, the CCT's amongst them...
The bit about the sidestand and idling for longer periods are equally simple... With the engine on it's side, you wont get full oil circulation, there are parts, specifically the CCT's that get left out until the engine is stood up, and you get throttle the first time...
05-08-2012, 12:56 PM
#30
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At anything above 10C ambient, I can do exactly what was described above... I get on the bike, pull the choke, push the starter, and then put on gloves and helmet... By the time I have done that, I either push the choke in and ride off, or if the temps are down close to 10C, push it partially in, and push the last bit in by the first intersection, about 500m from home... At no time is my bike sitting on the sidestand idling... It hasn't happened when I ride in below freezing temps either...
