supply and demand bullshit!
09-03-2008, 12:28 AM
#36
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what was this thread about?
while you two are debating this, perhaps you can share the better alternative as currently practiced in a modern society? You can't condemn something for its flaws and completely ignore the benefits, or pretend you'd still have all those benefits without the system in place.
while you two are debating this, perhaps you can share the better alternative as currently practiced in a modern society? You can't condemn something for its flaws and completely ignore the benefits, or pretend you'd still have all those benefits without the system in place.
Information abounds about fractional reserve banking and the nefarious designs of those behind it. I would suggest reading "The Creature From Jekyll Island" by G. Edward Griffin, which is not as daunting or boring a read as its 624 pages would suggest.
Sorry (sort of) for ranting and getting completely off topic.
09-03-2008, 04:38 AM
#37
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Here's an idea: develop alternatives to oil, reduce our dependency on foreign oil. Will the market do that? Will ExxonMobil lead the charge to curb oil demand?
The latest price increase has been good for our country because it is slowly changing our habits and we drive less.
As for taxes, those who make the most should pay their share of taxes, period. Why give tax breaks to hugely profitable companies or individuals who make millions per year? Corporate welfare is bad for all of us.
Want to reform something? Want to keep more jobs in the U.S? Look at the pressures wall street puts on publicly traded companies to cut costs by any means necessary which often includes offshoring jobs. Then we can talk about the corporations that have offshore charters to avoid paying taxes on their profits.
I want less government, not more. But i want to see a level playing field as well and don't currently see it.
The latest price increase has been good for our country because it is slowly changing our habits and we drive less.
As for taxes, those who make the most should pay their share of taxes, period. Why give tax breaks to hugely profitable companies or individuals who make millions per year? Corporate welfare is bad for all of us.
Want to reform something? Want to keep more jobs in the U.S? Look at the pressures wall street puts on publicly traded companies to cut costs by any means necessary which often includes offshoring jobs. Then we can talk about the corporations that have offshore charters to avoid paying taxes on their profits.
I want less government, not more. But i want to see a level playing field as well and don't currently see it.
09-03-2008, 05:00 AM
#38
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Bill, I did share the better alternative. Abolishing the Fed and debt based central banking is the place to start. There are no negatives to that alternative, and no real benefits (unless one considers endless debt a good thing) to the current system. Ending the easy money, defer the debt to future generations system we currently have does require a more informed and disciplined populace, but I don't really consider those to be drawbacks.
Information abounds about fractional reserve banking and the nefarious designs of those behind it. I would suggest reading "The Creature From Jekyll Island" by G. Edward Griffin, which is not as daunting or boring a read as its 624 pages would suggest.
Sorry (sort of) for ranting and getting completely off topic.
Information abounds about fractional reserve banking and the nefarious designs of those behind it. I would suggest reading "The Creature From Jekyll Island" by G. Edward Griffin, which is not as daunting or boring a read as its 624 pages would suggest.
Sorry (sort of) for ranting and getting completely off topic.
OK, more narrowly focused, which is more convincing. I'll take a look at the book, I usually enjoy reading these kinds of issues and a couple of guys I work with usually try to get into (as in learn) about some new area of political discussion (new for us) regularly and this might be a good talking point. thanks
09-03-2008, 05:09 AM
#39
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As for taxes, those who make the most should pay their share of taxes, period. Without some of those incentives, these company's will not open there doors in the US, providing Americans with jobs! They can do business in a third world country and pay works a quarter or a third what they have to dish out to Americans to get them off there *** to work! Thanks to Unions and such...So as a business owner, what incentive is there for me?? A tax incentive is one of the best..Period...souloution? I don't have one, cause we can all sit here and rant til we're blue in the face, ain't gonna do a bit of good...
Why give tax breaks to hugely profitable companies or individuals who make millions per year? When it comes to the individuals, I agree, there needs to be some kind of Flat tax % wise across the board...NOT this bullshit that if you make above a certain $$ amount you get hit with a higher %...That is bullshit! Corporate welfare is bad for all of us. No, Government Welfare is bad for us ALL! The people who pay into the system, 50% of Americans, are the ones paying for it...The other 49% pay NO taxes, and or get money handed to them from the Government, which in turn is like me finding some worthless none working wanna suckle from the Government Tit, and handing them a portion of my paycheck cause the government says it's the right thing to do!! Bullshit! When does it end? Now you throw into the mix the possibilities of a Marxist/Socialist President that is hell bent to make sure that everyone gets there slice of the pie!! WTF? Entitlement??? No body promised you a rose garden Hero!! It's America, Land of the Free...You still have the Freedom to be as Rich or as Poor as you wanna be!!!
Want to reform something? Want to keep more jobs in the U.S? Look at the pressures wall street puts on publicly traded companies to cut costs by any means necessary which often includes off shoring jobs. Then we can talk about the corporations that have offshore charters to avoid paying taxes on their profits.
I want less government, not more. But i want to see a level playing field as well and don't currently see it. Level? If I own Walmart, do you think I want a level playing field so that Target or Kmart could pull market share? Wake up man, this is business...
09-03-2008, 06:11 AM
#40
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Rossthompson;
If the goal is a "level playing field", why should a guy who works harder and smarter pay 35% of his income in taxes while the guy who works slower and dumber pays 10%?
The only way at present, and certainly for years to come, to seriously reduce dependence on foreign oil is to produce American oil. Will the market do that? Sure, if you let them.
You think the government going to come up with "alternative energy"?
We've had a federal "Department Of Energy" for 32 years now. Budget? Over TWENTY FOUR BILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR. Where's my friggin' "alternative energy"?
Ask most the folks who decry dependence on oil and love to talk about "alternative energy" what they have in mind.
Nuclear? Too dangerous.
Coal? Too dirty.
Hydro? Bad for the fishies.
Wind turbines? Bad for the birdies.
We're going to be dependent on fossil fuel for our vehicles for a long time. Best we start producing some of it ourselves.
If the goal is a "level playing field", why should a guy who works harder and smarter pay 35% of his income in taxes while the guy who works slower and dumber pays 10%?
The only way at present, and certainly for years to come, to seriously reduce dependence on foreign oil is to produce American oil. Will the market do that? Sure, if you let them.
You think the government going to come up with "alternative energy"?
We've had a federal "Department Of Energy" for 32 years now. Budget? Over TWENTY FOUR BILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR. Where's my friggin' "alternative energy"?
Ask most the folks who decry dependence on oil and love to talk about "alternative energy" what they have in mind.
Nuclear? Too dangerous.
Coal? Too dirty.
Hydro? Bad for the fishies.
Wind turbines? Bad for the birdies.
We're going to be dependent on fossil fuel for our vehicles for a long time. Best we start producing some of it ourselves.
09-03-2008, 06:11 AM
#41
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I appriciate all the post on my topic, but i need to take some pics of the business and factories that have either gone under or moved to mexico or china in the last two years. 5 factories in the two counties I work and live in have moved to mexico or china, and have put thousands out of their jobs. Who can buy their product when they dont have a job. NAFTA alone is one of the causes. I am lucky to work for an automotive company that produces parts for the japaniese. Atlest they (toyota, honda, nissan) realize that our quality work is better then cheap work anyday.
09-03-2008, 06:16 AM
#42
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And as far as a fuel alternative for gas. try hydrogen. You can make it from water and salt, or water and baking soda, or water and lye. I have been adding it to my car for 6 months now, and have increased my mpg from 30 to 40. That may not sound like much, but 30% is a good gain to me.
09-03-2008, 06:26 AM
#43
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Ask most the folks who decry dependence on oil and love to talk about "alternative energy" what they have in mind.
Nuclear? Too dangerous.
Coal? Too dirty.
Hydro? Bad for the fishies.
Wind turbines? Bad for the birdies.
We're going to be dependent on fossil fuel for our vehicles for a long time. Best we start producing some of it ourselves.
Nuclear? Too dangerous.
Coal? Too dirty.
Hydro? Bad for the fishies.
Wind turbines? Bad for the birdies.
We're going to be dependent on fossil fuel for our vehicles for a long time. Best we start producing some of it ourselves.
But that is like saying space travel is impossible (as perhaps it was in 1950), or flight before it. What we are asking is that a vision is set and genuine research to accomplish that starts (whether private or govt sponsored I really don't care). Talk about job potential for skilled and creative workforce. The alternatives that you are able to cite are the best evidence for lack of work in this area: they are the same tired ones with essentially the same limitations that have been in existence for a very long time.
09-03-2008, 06:32 AM
#44
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And as far as a fuel alternative for gas. try hydrogen. You can make it from water and salt, or water and baking soda, or water and lye. I have been adding it to my car for 6 months now, and have increased my mpg from 30 to 40. That may not sound like much, but 30% is a good gain to me.
09-03-2008, 06:34 AM
#45
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But that is like saying space travel is impossible (as perhaps it was in 1950), or flight before it. What we are asking is that a vision is set and genuine research to accomplish that starts (whether private or govt sponsored I really don't care). Talk about job potential for skilled and creative workforce. The alternatives that you are able to cite are the best evidence for lack of work in this area: they are the same tired ones with essentially the same limitations that have been in existence for a very long time.
Also, I am sure there are certain people that don't want this to happen...Kind of like the Pill companies don't really wanna cure anyting, they just want you to be hooked on there meds the rest of your life...More $$ for them that way!! See how that works???....
09-03-2008, 06:42 AM
#46
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09-03-2008, 06:51 AM
#48
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I didnt buy anything except an in line fuse . I built mine myself in a couple hours. I did go by his design tho. it works, you just have to add a catalyst to produce more hydrogen. Thats where the lye, baking soda or salt comes into play. Just remember that the more catalyst you add, the hotter the unit will get and the more amps it will pull.
09-03-2008, 06:59 AM
#49
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But that is like saying space travel is impossible (as perhaps it was in 1950), or flight before it. What we are asking is that a vision is set and genuine research to accomplish that starts (whether private or govt sponsored I really don't care). Talk about job potential for skilled and creative workforce. The alternatives that you are able to cite are the best evidence for lack of work in this area: they are the same tired ones with essentially the same limitations that have been in existence for a very long time.
I'm not saying forget about alternatives. I'm saying don't expect anything to replace gasoline and diesel anytime soon. Not for decades.
Space travel? Yeah, we've sent a few dozen people into space. I'm sure we could build a few dozen alternative fuel cars too.
Replacing a fleet of 200-300 million petrol fuel vehicles with God knows what powered by who knows what?
That would be many orders of magnitude more difficult and more expensive than mere space travel for a handful of people.
Think about it. Imagine we had battery technology to power a small car 200 miles without the batteries weighing about 2 tons (we don't).
Imagine 5% or 10% of the population bought such a car tommorow. You know what happens tomorrow night when they all plug in the car to recharge it for the next work day? Every power plant in the USA goes off line.
09-03-2008, 07:02 AM
#50
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I didnt buy anything except an in line fuse . I built mine myself in a couple hours. I did go by his design tho. it works, you just have to add a catalyst to produce more hydrogen. Thats where the lye, baking soda or salt comes into play. Just remember that the more catalyst you add, the hotter the unit will get and the more amps it will pull.
So before I would even think of it, I would have to know someone that has used it successfully, and be able to take it appart inspect it, and do it myself..
I'm hungry...going to get some food...LOL
09-03-2008, 07:14 AM
#51
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All the alternatives I mentioned work perfectly well. Ever hear of the Hoover Dam? Although it is 70+ years old, it produces an incredible amount of electricity. But you see, in order to get electicity from a hydroelectic plant, you have to build a hydroelectric plant.
So you don't want to drill for oil, you don't want to build hydro, nuke or wind plants.
What's your plan?
09-03-2008, 11:47 AM
#52
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Cover the southwest with facilities using this stuff...
http://www.valcent.net/i/misc/Vertigro/index.html
Originally posted by LineArrayNut.
Add massive solar panels arrays and wind farms in the southern deserts as well and we would be doing well.
http://www.valcent.net/i/misc/Vertigro/index.html
Originally posted by LineArrayNut.
Add massive solar panels arrays and wind farms in the southern deserts as well and we would be doing well.
09-03-2008, 12:08 PM
#53
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All the alternatives I mentioned work perfectly well. Ever hear of the Hoover Dam? Although it is 70+ years old, it produces an incredible amount of electricity. But you see, in order to get electicity from a hydroelectic plant, you have to build a hydroelectric plant.
So you don't want to drill for oil, you don't want to build hydro, nuke or wind plants.
What's your plan?
So you don't want to drill for oil, you don't want to build hydro, nuke or wind plants.
What's your plan?
And again, shouldn't a Hoover damn designed today be exponentially easier to build and more efficient? what about harnessing oceans tides? But again, no research and developed no progress. I am not opposed to any of the other sources you cite - but its ludicrous at how minimal their output is, using old technology instead of leaping to something new. Perhaps if it were an ipod type device, or otherwise part of consumerism there would be more interest. But this to me is a role for government - because the free market systems do not have a way of capturing certain costs - environmental, future opportunity cost, societal benefits, etc very effectively to allow the market to weigh in on it: our society has a very short time horizon for cost/benefit.
09-03-2008, 12:12 PM
#54
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I'm not saying forget about alternatives. I'm saying don't expect anything to replace gasoline and diesel anytime soon. Not for decades.
Space travel? Yeah, we've sent a few dozen people into space. I'm sure we could build a few dozen alternative fuel cars too.
Replacing a fleet of 200-300 million petrol fuel vehicles with God knows what powered by who knows what?
That would be many orders of magnitude more difficult and more expensive than mere space travel for a handful of people.
Think about it. Imagine we had battery technology to power a small car 200 miles without the batteries weighing about 2 tons (we don't).
Imagine 5% or 10% of the population bought such a car tommorow. You know what happens tomorrow night when they all plug in the car to recharge it for the next work day? Every power plant in the USA goes off line.
Space travel? Yeah, we've sent a few dozen people into space. I'm sure we could build a few dozen alternative fuel cars too.
Replacing a fleet of 200-300 million petrol fuel vehicles with God knows what powered by who knows what?
That would be many orders of magnitude more difficult and more expensive than mere space travel for a handful of people.
Think about it. Imagine we had battery technology to power a small car 200 miles without the batteries weighing about 2 tons (we don't).
Imagine 5% or 10% of the population bought such a car tommorow. You know what happens tomorrow night when they all plug in the car to recharge it for the next work day? Every power plant in the USA goes off line.
09-03-2008, 04:24 PM
#55
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That is all well and good. It's nice to dream about some wonderful technology of the future which will provide us with plenty of cheap, clean energy, but 300 million Americans can't get to work or the grocery store on a tank full of dreams.
We have to use the technology available now. That is what the government isn't doing and worse isn't letting anybody else do.
And again, research and development of alternative energy would be the easy part. Even if we had it already, building the infrastructure to provide that energy to hundreds of millions of people would take many, many years.
09-03-2008, 05:05 PM
#56
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Cover the southwest with facilities using this stuff...
http://www.valcent.net/i/misc/Vertigro/index.html
Originally posted by LineArrayNut.
http://www.valcent.net/i/misc/Vertigro/index.html
Originally posted by LineArrayNut.
Are you guys are ignoring this^^^At the end of the video the guy claims they can provide ALL the power needs for the USA by covering a 10th of the state of New Mexico with bioreactors. Sounds like the way to go. More if you want to read it...
http://www.valcent.net/s/Ecotech.asp?ReportID=182039
Last edited by Moto Man; 09-03-2008 at 05:19 PM.
09-03-2008, 05:12 PM
#57
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Randman, do you believe that a high percentage of the population is on the dole? Are they making out like bandits?
I worked on a generational poverty project in DC back in 2001-02 and it was an eye opener in a big way. I was teaching economic literacy education (how money, credit, and banking works, predatory lending, etc) plus some adult GED classes. There are a lot of working poor in this country that work their asses off for very little.
The CEO that makes 400X the workers salary is not being compensated for his abilities. It just does not work out.
I am a machinist with a BS in business and a minor in industrial management which is an interesting thing post NAFTA. I work and am very skilled, but make less than I made 8 years ago, mostly due to companies' ability to shift production to china without any repercussions.
The idea that tax breaks are somehow owed to business is flawed because we need tax money for schools, roads, military, and hopefully healthcare someday so that everyone can go to the doctor when they need to.
I worked on a generational poverty project in DC back in 2001-02 and it was an eye opener in a big way. I was teaching economic literacy education (how money, credit, and banking works, predatory lending, etc) plus some adult GED classes. There are a lot of working poor in this country that work their asses off for very little.
The CEO that makes 400X the workers salary is not being compensated for his abilities. It just does not work out.
I am a machinist with a BS in business and a minor in industrial management which is an interesting thing post NAFTA. I work and am very skilled, but make less than I made 8 years ago, mostly due to companies' ability to shift production to china without any repercussions.
The idea that tax breaks are somehow owed to business is flawed because we need tax money for schools, roads, military, and hopefully healthcare someday so that everyone can go to the doctor when they need to.
09-03-2008, 05:47 PM
#58
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I've read this entire conversation and thanks to all of you contributors. The central theme (my o2) is that government - regardless of what they do or don't do, needs to be smaller - MUCH smaller. The common wage earner cannot support this infrastructure.
When this government recognizes the fact that most people can survive and do so, without their intervention. Their "worth it" to the tax-paying citizens will tank.
This country was born of a tax revolt and it's a gathering storm.
When this government recognizes the fact that most people can survive and do so, without their intervention. Their "worth it" to the tax-paying citizens will tank.
This country was born of a tax revolt and it's a gathering storm.
