Rama

Hi, any expert in electrical/electronic system can help me?
I've make this scheme for my track bike: my VTR hav'nt the alternator, and I have removed all unnecessary sensor (like the side stand, clutch, fuel, neutral, ecc...)
The cable for RPM from the ICM, is for my display (GPT D3), and whit the display I can look water temperature, oil temperature, oil pressure and other parameters whit his GPT sensor.
So, the electrical wiring is only for control the ignition system.

I'm not expert in electic/electronic system, so may be some mistakes....

Can you look if it's all correct in my plan, or if something is wrong?




Here is possible zoom the image...

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_OLfoPeTo_BM/S0...definitivo.JPG

And excuse me each for possible error in traslation.... thanks a lot for your help!

gboezio

That should run, will the battery last long enough for a race ??

superchickencornermonster

I have over 900 hours of electronic theory at NCCTC. If you send me something in a bit more detail I can look at it for you.

service@brookscycle.com

JamieDaugherty

I'm sure the battery will last for an entire race, my question is if it's worth it? You lose maybe a couple of pounds and the hassle factor is high. I've always left the wiring harness alone when building my race bikes. It's really more simple that way.

nuhawk

But wouldn't you remove the stator in that scenario? That would be a significant weight savings.

JamieDaugherty

Sure, removing the rotor and stator can result in some degree of gains. The question is whether it really amounts to anything. I doubt that you would see much in the way of lap time improvements. For novice level racers it's better to focus on riding skills. That's where the seconds will drop off. Worrying about a bike without a charging system is stress that you don't need at the track.

Rama

Yes, the bike goes whitout rotor and stator.
The weight of the flywheel. in this configuration, it's very good, and the bike catch RPM like... a two stroke engine!
The problem is for the battery life-time.... whit a small and light 12v4Ah the bike go for 25/35 minutes... so, I have many batteries for my track days...

gboezio

Yeah deleting the flywheel is a nice improvement, if you are into tuning you could run some Microsquirt and opotimize the timing on a dyno, if you have time and budget for this.

Edit : Nah, it will just drain more power, post pics when done !!!

JamieDaugherty

My question is - with the couple of hp you gain (you should dyno it) is it really worth it?

Rama

This is a old photo of my flywheel... weighs 2 kg less than the original, a substancial difference...
But I have another original flywheel, for every time I have to make the engine timing, because the references are on the rotor, and in my lightened ar'nt present (I hav'nt the rotor!)...




So, the wiring plan was correct or...?

I need confirmation before try ... I would not burn ICM or converter unit!
And I want to be sure that the bike can start with it!

Rama

Not a question of power, but of inertia and reducing the moving masses ... rpm go up much faster, and the bike is much more manageable.

For the handling, the effect is like that of magnesium wheels: wheels affect handling much, but do not run at 9000 rpm... flywheel run much faster than the wheels, and straightening effect is greater!
Having also magnesium wheels, the handling of my bike was great!

For the engine, if whit the original flywheel you need of 100 meters for go to 4000 to 7000rpm (it's only an example...) whit a very light flywheel you need of 70 meters for earn the same rpm...

Rama

But the question is...

Gilson

A total loss system is a PITA for trackdays. One of the uk's best track, cadwell park doesn't have paddocks so you then have to have a generator or a fully charged spare batteries. If it fails during a session it annoys everyone as you have stop the session.

IMHO it's only worthwhile when you have mastered the bike and are looking for those unobtainable seconds that nothing else can give.

however, The best way to improve the battery life during the day is to always jumpstart it using a car battery or jump pack. This is easy to do if you have easy access to the battery but with race rear fairing this does make access difficult.

There are some good battry fixings to allow this though, check uk eBay for "Anderson jump start kit". A chap on the firestorm uk site has used this successfully.

Good luck

Rama

I thought the problem ...
I have a stock of 5 battery, so I can cover the day on track.
Also, I have a fast charger, and can "turn" the batteries during the day.
And I'm organizing with the A123 batteries, which can be fully recharged in just 10 minutes. In Italy the tracks are very organized with lots of electric charging stations, gas stations, covered paddocks, so the problem does not exist.
To monitor the status of the battery I'm organizing, so as not to remain never walk during the track session...
And the battery have fast connector, so I can change my battery easy and quicly...

...but give me your "OK!!" for the wiring diagram!

gboezio

The sidestand pin is grounded, it should be in working order, the only point where I'm not sure is the tach signal, I think it's a 12 V square wave, not quite sure, it should work on most aftermarket tach.
So yes the engine should run

Rama

...Good!

autoteach

if you look at a 2.2kg (4.4lb) weight at a radius of 5 inches (i know this is not correct) it doesn't compare to a tire or wheel at 8.5 to 12 inch radius.
5" radius has a speed of 267mph at 9000 rpm
the tire speed will be road speed (60-100mph) on the track


Yes the engine will be able to gain speed faster, but wheels are more effective overall in handling. The other problem that you run into is some decreased smoothness in the engine due to the weight. I would highly suggest have your rotating assembly balanced with the flywheel, con rods, and pistons so that it runs smoother without the 2.2kg of the stator. Just my opinion.

Rama

Autoteach, I use already a couple of Marvic magnesium wheels, and after the mod of the flywheel the bike was more manageable.

Each rotating mass in motion generates lever effect on the bike.
For example, if you turn the wheel of a bicycle 10km/h or at 70km / h, has a different lever... the flywheel have a very high speed in rotation, so, also have a small diameter, make a sensible strightening effect...
In MotoGP Yamaha M1 uses a crankshaft that turns at contrary of the wheels, for "cancel" a parts of the inertia of the wheels, and have a very manageable bike whit this expedient...

My crankshaft was equilibrated whit this flywheel, but if I mount the original flywheel, the balance is not different (I have test this!): change only the weight of the total. It's different if I use different rods or pistons, because the crankshaft was balanced under the weight of those...

All people can try the difference and the effect of this mod, disconnecting the alternator to the electrical system and removing the flywheel to the crancshaft: the engine have a lower mass to move, so can make his revolution in less time.

autoteach

I get that, i just know that my lightened flywheel did make a difference in engine accel, but it also has issues with pulling 3rd-6th gears under 2500rpm. It gets bucky (engine pulses at that rpm lash the chain). Maybe this is just my experience, but I would stand by it for recommendations to other owners.

Rama

Oh it's true! More the flywheel was light, and more is important that the engine never run under torque... at low rpm can born a lot of problems, and the engine was very scorbutic!

Rama

At today, I can't solve my electrical problems ....

I've try all the possible, but my sparks hav'nt fire......

I've try to change:

2 ICM

2 converter Units

4 Coils

2 Pick-up pulse generator

2 complete electrical wiring

I'm disperate........ any advice is welcome....... help me pls!!!!!!!!

JamieDaugherty

Man, my advice is still the same - don't mess with the wiring harness. I think you've found out why!

Tweety

I don't think the two wires for the ECT should connect to ground, because then you are basicly shorting the throttle sensor to ground... That won't work at all...

But I cant tell you of the top of my head if they should be tied together or left open to work... I'd just try and hook them up as originally, much easier...

And I'm with Jamie... Rip out the unwanted wires for the signals and headlights and what not if you want... One at a time, and try stuff... But easiest to just leave it alone...

Oh and since you have removed the sidestand and clutch switch... You are either running without a sidestand and onboard starter, unlikely since that means having a team standing around waiting for you in the pit with a stand, and a team to start the bike with a rollerstarter or you are betting on a long odds, which is stupid... There a million ways to get it wrong, starting the bike in gear and such... Less ways to get it rigth... Sooner or later you will get it wrong, that's a given fact...

Rama

I have a separate circuit for the starter motor (i have replace it...)....and it works well... i don't need to a rollerstarter now...

I 've buy my bike whit an electrical wiring already modified... but it works well for long time... one day, it decide to stop to work, and it start my electrical-odyssey...
So, I try to test all components... change all of the list, and try other wiring for exlude possible false contact...
and now you know the situation....

Oh, I hav'nt update the wiring plan... and about the ECT you are right...

This is more recent...



http://lh6.ggpht.com/_OLfoPeTo_BM/S0...definitivo.JPG

gboezio

I suspect that it comes from either the light green wire or the Green/white
Try all possible combo, it's hard to point how the original wiring works, there's that diode and I'm not sure if the side stand is normally grounded or normally lifted, my computer is removed and I have replaced most of the wiring so I can't go out and take measurements.
Trying all possible combos will rule out the safety wires, just to make sure
Ground /ground
ground /lift
ground/12v
lift/ground
lift/lift
lift/12V
12V/ground
12V/lift
12V/12V

Tweety

Sidestand switch should be grounded out if removed, I know since I recently had to trouble shoot my bike when the clutch switch decided to fail internally, ie it looked OK, but didn't open the circuit so it was possible to start the bike in gear...

gboezio

Good info, so you may try ground/lift or 12 V on the light blue wire and should get some result or something else is wrong

Rama

I searched the light green and green/white wires in my old electrical wiring (it works well for long time...)

goes both to the ground... so i think was right...

...Other possible mistakes?

gboezio

Try testing the pulse gen using a peak hold multimeter, should be 0,7V min.
An Oscilloscope would come handy in a situation like this
A bad connector or wire is all that is needed to get trouble like this.
Do you have a tach signal ??

Rama

I have test ALL components...

Pulse generator have 0,7 min, ECT have regular resistance (try cold and warm), TPS is ok...

For "tach signal" you mean tachometer signal? I hav'nt try this.... do you think I can measure when the starter motor run? How?

Try to change ICM, coils, Converter unit... but nothing....

Remain to test my 2 ICM (...are all bad?!?! I can't think it true, but is possible...) and my 2 converter units... but i think only Honda mechanix can try...

Over 2 months that I go crazy whit my electrical problems...