Modifications - Performance Discuss aftermarket and DIY performance modifications

Rebuild just around the corner....

Old 10-07-2010, 07:17 AM
  #1  
Senior Member
MotoGP
Thread Starter
 
mikstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Montreal
Posts: 5,560
mikstr is on a distinguished road
Rebuild just around the corner....

I am waiting on two remaining backordered parts and will soon have everything I need to have the engine rebuilt (am replacing ALL wear items like bearings, seals, chains,...). As I have very little time with my new job and no suitable place (or tools) to undertake such a project, I will be having my dealer do it (same chap who built some racing engines for Honda Canada`s Superbike effort a few years back).

Some of the goodies going into the engine include:
- FP Shift Star
- 0.5mm OS hi-comp JE pistons (with moly skirt coat and ceramic top coat)
- DLC coated piston pins, tappets and valves
- ceramic bearings for transmission and water pump
- Carrillo rods
- in-line cooler
- high capacity SPAL fan with manual switch

I will be getting the crank dynamically balanced for smoother running, better durability, and faster wind-up. I will also have my new (and rebuilt Ohlins shock installed at the same time.
My (realistic?) expectations are to have the hopped-up mill produce mid-130s bhp and mid-80s torque, all at practically stock rpm levels.

Looking forward to getting it back and have it out on the road (though that likel won`t be until next spring). Should be a real smile generator
mikstr is offline  
Old 10-07-2010, 07:46 AM
  #2  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
Erik S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Westerly, RI
Posts: 1,216
Erik S. is on a distinguished road
Smile generator? I got a frown on this side of the monitor. I'm jealous.

Happy for you though. I imagine you giggling like a school girl the first time you ride it.
Erik S. is offline  
Old 10-07-2010, 08:50 AM
  #3  
Senior Member
MotoGP
 
lazn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 3,132
lazn is on a distinguished road
I forget, have you already done all the flywheel lightening that you plan to?

Looks like it should really rip!
lazn is offline  
Old 10-07-2010, 08:57 AM
  #4  
Senior Member
MotoGP
Thread Starter
 
mikstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Montreal
Posts: 5,560
mikstr is on a distinguished road
Flywheel has already been lightened (am running Hyperplate alumunum clutch plates too, for a further drop in rotating weight). The new pistons and rods are significantly lighter than stock, however, so the re-balancing of the crank should result in a further significant drop in rotating weight. Combined with a significant drop in the weight of the wheels (not to mention static weight reduction which should get up to about 70 lb once I get my aluminum fairing stay and subframe in place), the power to weight will be light years ahead of stock......
mikstr is offline  
Old 10-12-2010, 08:30 AM
  #5  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
RCVTR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
Posts: 1,689
RCVTR is an unknown quantity at this point
I guess if you tighten up the squish clearance, by decking the block, without overdoing the compression ratio, you might get close to 80 ft-lbs. Be careful, though.
RCVTR is offline  
Old 10-12-2010, 08:58 AM
  #6  
Senior Member
MotoGP
Thread Starter
 
mikstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Montreal
Posts: 5,560
mikstr is on a distinguished road
Heads have already been cut 0.015". As for the end result, I expect to get over 80 lb-ft when it`s all done (am at right around 75 lb-ft now on a "tired engine" with 85,000 miles and stock compression ratio; throw in some reduced friction via ceramic bearings and DLC coating, not to mention reduced inertia from lighter pistons and conrods, and a balanced crank, plus the 0.8 or so lb-ft gained from the small displacement increase and voilà!)......
mikstr is offline  
Old 10-12-2010, 09:43 AM
  #7  
Banned
MotoGP
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lake View Terrace, CA
Posts: 5,942
8541Hawk will become famous soon enough
Should be real fun when you get done......
8541Hawk is offline  
Old 10-12-2010, 10:32 AM
  #8  
Senior Member
MotoGP
Thread Starter
 
mikstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Montreal
Posts: 5,560
mikstr is on a distinguished road
I am counting on it While it will never have the top-end of a modern Open-class supersport, the strong mid-range, together with the massive weight drop, should make for killer acceleration in roll-ons and corner exits....

Last edited by mikstr; 10-12-2010 at 10:35 AM.
mikstr is offline  
Old 10-28-2010, 06:13 PM
  #9  
Senior Member
MotoGP
Thread Starter
 
mikstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Montreal
Posts: 5,560
mikstr is on a distinguished road
Just dropped the old girl off at my dealer's, work starts in the morning If the weather stays mild and the work goes quickly (and the crank and rod bearings are not on backorder), I may get to sample it before the snow flies but I sense it will likely have to wait until springtime.....
mikstr is offline  
Old 11-02-2010, 06:11 PM
  #10  
Senior Member
MotoGP
Thread Starter
 
mikstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Montreal
Posts: 5,560
mikstr is on a distinguished road
Spoke to the tech doing the rebuild and the mill is all apart. He gave me the bearing codes to order (rods and crank). I have decided to replace the Hyperplate aluminum clutch plates with OEM HOnda steel bits. While the weight loss is a wonderful thing, it is hardly worth the potential risk of metal shavings taking the rebuilt mill out (the torque of the new mill will surely put a lot of pressure on the clutch). I asked about the internals and the chap told me he was really surprised at how pristine the engine is, especially considering the mileage on it (over 140,000 km, or about 85,000 miles). He did note that the valve guides on the exhaust side were a bit sloppy so those will be replaced also.

More news to follow.....
mikstr is offline  
Old 11-03-2010, 07:40 AM
  #11  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
RCVTR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
Posts: 1,689
RCVTR is an unknown quantity at this point
Make sure you put stiffer clutch pressure plate springs in.

Mine were Moriwaki, but there are others. I think Barnett has some. RC51 springs may work.
RCVTR is offline  
Old 11-03-2010, 08:06 AM
  #12  
Senior Member
MotoGP
Thread Starter
 
mikstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Montreal
Posts: 5,560
mikstr is on a distinguished road
Thanks, I am already running Barnett springs (and new fibre plates) as of last fall.
mikstr is offline  
Old 11-30-2010, 05:56 PM
  #13  
Senior Member
MotoGP
Thread Starter
 
mikstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Montreal
Posts: 5,560
mikstr is on a distinguished road
Update: I FINALLY received the Samco hose kit I ordered a while back. Good thing too as everything else is ready to go. The hoses will be going on tomorrow, then everything goes back together and then it's..... dyno (break-in) time!!!!!! Needless to say I am REALLY looking forward to getting some hard numbers. Fortunately, there is a mild spell here in Montreal for the next few days so I should be able to ride it home (about 15 miles) on Thursday and wheel it into the garage for winter storage. Can't wait to give the throttle a good hard twist.... he he he
mikstr is offline  
Old 11-30-2010, 07:11 PM
  #14  
Senior Member
Superstock
 
alive226's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Arlington Heights, IL
Posts: 320
alive226 is on a distinguished road
Can't wait to hear the results (numbers) when you are done.
alive226 is offline  
Old 12-02-2010, 08:12 PM
  #15  
Senior Member
MotoGP
 
nath981's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: altoona, pa
Posts: 2,934
nath981 is on a distinguished road
sounds like you covered all the bases. Should be a runner, and a smooth one at that. Exciting!
nath981 is offline  
Old 12-03-2010, 02:52 PM
  #16  
Senior Member
MotoGP
Thread Starter
 
mikstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Montreal
Posts: 5,560
mikstr is on a distinguished road
Well, I picked her up last night. I must confess I was/am a bit disappointed with the final dyno numbers: 121 hp (at 9k) and 77 lb-ft (at 6,750 rpm) (PS to Randy: you were right, lol). I was expecting significantly better. However, despite the "dyno break-in", I expect the engine will run in a bit more, bringing the numbers up a bit (1-2 lb-ft?). Also, the runs were done on a brand new rear tire (Pilot Pure 190/55). Finally, the bearings in my back wheel were toast (luckily it was caught before it caused problems; tech found the source of the problem... whew!) and they put in standard wheel bearings (which I will be replacing with either steel C3's or ceramic hybrid C3's, freeing up a smidgen more power there again). On the positive side, the torque curve is completely free of dips (looks like two straight lines, one angled upwards slightly from 3.5 - 6.75k, the othere slightly downwards from 6.75 to 9k). Torque is above 60 lb-ft from 3.5 k (and stays above it until the rev limiter cuts in at 10k) and above 70 lb-ft from 5.5k-9k. Also, the crank balancing did tis job and the engine is very smooth, the idle being remarkably steady and the mill accepting throttle at low rpm without protesting.

I took it out for a short ride last evening (weather was 1 degree C, or about 34 F). It spun up nicely although I suspect the jetting was lean (given the temp). The mid-range is defintely more muscular and front end would get light in 4th at 75 mph+.

The SPAL fan (which I can activate with an override switch) blows like crazy (in addition to being one lb lighter). The exhaust note definitely sounded throatier too.

Sadly, it is now is storage for the winter. I look forward to taking out in the spring and having a chance to ride it in warmer conditions and wringing its neck a little. My hope is to get the bhp up to a reliable 125 and torque nibbling at 80 lb-ft (realistic I think given the factors stated above).

that's all folks.....

Last edited by mikstr; 12-03-2010 at 02:55 PM.
mikstr is offline  
Old 12-04-2010, 07:30 AM
  #17  
Senior Member
MotoGP
 
lazn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 3,132
lazn is on a distinguished road
Congrats!

Finally done!
lazn is offline  
Old 12-04-2010, 08:19 AM
  #18  
Senior Member
MotoGP
 
nath981's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: altoona, pa
Posts: 2,934
nath981 is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by mikstr View Post
Well, I picked her up last night. I must confess I was/am a bit disappointed with the final dyno numbers: 121 hp (at 9k) and 77 lb-ft (at 6,750 rpm).
doesn't it make you wonder what the hell these other people have done additional to your mods to gain another thirty HP?

Personally, I would be very happy with your HP and especially the smoothness of a balanced motor. Enjoy!
nath981 is offline  
Old 12-04-2010, 10:02 AM
  #19  
Senior Member
Superstock
 
AngryOlaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Woodland Hills, CA
Posts: 421
AngryOlaf is on a distinguished road
Congrats on finishing the rebuild Mikestr!

I agree with nath981... a nice and smooth 120+ hp sounds quite respectable... I, for one, am jealous!
AngryOlaf is offline  
Old 12-04-2010, 10:18 AM
  #20  
Senior Member
SuperSport
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Central Fl.
Posts: 530
PUSHrod is on a distinguished road
Okay, I'll buy into your numbers. But not mentioned is the bucks you put out for the bang.

Will you give us the cost of the finished engine work? Parts, labor and dial in? I am curious.
PUSHrod is offline  
Old 12-05-2010, 04:11 AM
  #21  
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
 
Tweety's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
Tweety is on a distinguished road
Uhm... mikstr... You must be doing something wrong... I haven't gotten around to sticking my pistons in there, and I'm pushing 118+ at the rearwheel... I might be completely wrong, but getting them in there and setting it all up accordingly should net me at least 5+ hp... Shouldn't it?

My homemade port & polish of the heads can't be that good... You should be getting more than me...
Tweety is offline  
Old 12-05-2010, 06:24 AM
  #22  
Senior Member
MotoGP
 
nath981's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: altoona, pa
Posts: 2,934
nath981 is on a distinguished road
Come on Tweety. You just like throwing flies in the ointment, don't you? haha Agitator!

You may be able to use dyno results more to verify HP improvements if you use the same dyno, but comparing different engine build numbers from different dynos will likely yield unreliable results.
nath981 is offline  
Old 12-05-2010, 06:57 AM
  #23  
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
 
Tweety's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
Tweety is on a distinguished road
Well... Agreed, on the unreliable results on comparing dyno's...

But considering that mikstr is as far as I know using a professional dyno that should be calibrated, and numbers should be compensated for whatever, and I'm using my own dyno, built and "calibrated" by me, and it from all I can tell is reading a couple of hp lower than most dyno's, I just think he should be getting more out of that build...

One of these days I'll have mine put on the EC997 dyno that the local shop have... That should be fun...
Tweety is offline  
Old 12-05-2010, 07:24 AM
  #24  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
RWhisen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ft. Worth, TX
Posts: 1,605
RWhisen is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
One of these days I'll have mine put on the EC997 dyno that the local shop have... That should be fun...
Or it could be disappointing.
RWhisen is offline  
Old 12-05-2010, 11:20 AM
  #25  
Senior Member
MotoGP
Thread Starter
 
mikstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Montreal
Posts: 5,560
mikstr is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
Uhm... mikstr... You must be doing something wrong... I haven't gotten around to sticking my pistons in there, and I'm pushing 118+ at the rearwheel... I might be completely wrong, but getting them in there and setting it all up accordingly should net me at least 5+ hp... Shouldn't it?

My homemade port & polish of the heads can't be that good... You should be getting more than me...
Your thinking is right in line with mine. However, I know the chap who did the work knows his stuff (as I stated in a earlier thread, he built the engines for the Honda Canada Superbike effort a few years back) and is very well respected.

I have been thinking about this matter since the other night and my thoughts are as follows:
- engine is still not broken in and there is surely more to come (could be a mind game but during the short ride I took the other night, in which I spent 60 km continuously pinning it and rolling off, it seemed to pull better towards the end, but that could be just wishful thinking too...)
- I have read that tire condition affects dyno readings greatly (thanks Google) and the tire used was brand new (known to generate low readings as it slips more), I expect a well-worn tire will help boost the numbers also
- the tech told me the engine was remarkably fresh and well aged despite the mileage, so perhaps some of the gains I was counting on from the refreshment part of the build were not as great as expected
- the gains, since last time it was strapped onto the same dyno, were just over 8 hp and just under 6 lb-ft; granted, the BMC filter, modded airbox lid and stick coils were not yet in at that time. Despite this, my tech seems to think that the gains I got (from the parts I added) are more than respectable (and actually more than he thought I would get)...

Either way, this is the end of the road for the actual engine mods (to go further would cost serious $$$$$). I could easily get more top-end from fitting shorter intake runners and having the intake cams retarded (am currently running them slightly advanced from Yosh specs - retarding would increase overlap and hence top-end), but that would come at a loss in low end and mid-range, going against my main objective of building a mid-range powerhouse. The torque peak is now lower than it was previously (down by 250 rpm), which inevitably affects top-end and consequently peak numbers. Unfortunately, with winter now setteld in, all theories will be on hold until a few months from now, at which time I'll be able to get better insight into all of this.

Am I happy with the results? Not quite. That doesn't mean I won't be later on, however, once the full break-in is complete and I have had sufficient saddle time to adequately assess what is going on.

It's going to be a long winter......

Last edited by mikstr; 12-05-2010 at 11:45 AM.
mikstr is offline  
Old 12-06-2010, 08:43 AM
  #26  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
RCVTR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
Posts: 1,689
RCVTR is an unknown quantity at this point
It sounds like you are right in there with the expected output for your mods.
Stage 1 cams are good for about 120 HP, if everything else is done right.

You could tighten up the squish clearance - stock JE pistons have about .050", with the head gaskets, which is only about .005 tighter than stock. .040" would be a tight, conservative number. But if you deck the block by .010" and the head too, you'll be high on compression.

Your engine will seal up with runtime and give higher numbers. The best thing you can do is stop worrying about the numbers and enjoy the riding. The thing's going to run great!
RCVTR is offline  
Old 12-06-2010, 10:25 AM
  #27  
Senior Member
MotoGP
Thread Starter
 
mikstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Montreal
Posts: 5,560
mikstr is on a distinguished road
Thanks Randy. The heads have already been decked by 0.015" a few summers back when the cams were installed initially. Interesting note: the tech had to put aluminum washers under the spark plugs as the pistons were coming into contact with the ground electrode at TDC. He told me that the squish and valve clearances were ok, however.
mikstr is offline  
Old 12-08-2010, 09:24 AM
  #28  
Senior Member
MotoGP
Thread Starter
 
mikstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Montreal
Posts: 5,560
mikstr is on a distinguished road
I have been looking around and doing some "comparison shopping" with dyno charts for other bikes (Dynojet results, as this was the dyno used in my case) and noted while the hp I acheived is perhaps not overly impressive, the torque is quite robust. In fact, I have looked up results of various RC51s, Ducs, Aprilias and the like and have come across very few that have as much torque (and this despite many being quite heavily modded). The low rpm at which the torque peak arrives holds back the ultimate bhp numbers it seems. I expect that a proper break-in, low friction rear wheel bearings and a cleaned air filter will land me very close to 80 lb-ft (and 125 bhp) with a honkin' mid-range. In other words, it`ll be an impressive real-world mill, meaning I will have met my objectives. I could most certainly replace the long intake runners with short ones, have the intake cams retarded by a couple of degrees (to increase overlap, and hence high-rpm breathing) and subsequently move the torque peak up by a few hundred rpm, which would "artificially" inflate the peak hp numbers. This, however, would come at a cost in low-end and mid-range (the "raison d'être" for having a big twin), all for the sake of impressing the gallery, so to speak. All this to say I am looking forward to next spring.....
mikstr is offline  
Old 12-08-2010, 09:48 AM
  #29  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
RCVTR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
Posts: 1,689
RCVTR is an unknown quantity at this point
You're not even going to worry about it, once you ride it.

When I finally got my RC51 mapped, it made just over 70 ft-lbs peak and 130 HP. The rear tire is a racing slick and 20-30mm taller than a stock tire. I believe, in an apples-apples comparison, it would be closer to 75 ft-lbs, and smewhere near 135 HP, since those seem to be a good standard numbers, with JE pistons and some port work. The tuner spent the time and mapped the part throttle regions cell-by-cell, so it is very well mapped everywhere.

The bike weighs 408 lbs, with all fluids and a 2/3 fuel load. I'm 190 lbs, suited up. When I'm on the track, where I can use all of the available power, there are times when I don't even ride it wide open. It just launches forward whenever I want it. It is a fantastic motorcycle. You can expect yours to have similar performance. So sleep well and look forward to spring!

RCVTR is offline  
Old 12-08-2010, 09:53 AM
  #30  
Fastest Color
SuperBike
 
FL02SupaHawk996's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lithia, FL
Posts: 2,091
FL02SupaHawk996 is on a distinguished road
Mikstr, you've got a nice ride there so don't sweat the dyno results...just ride her and have fun. If you ever decide to flow the heads then at that time you can shave them some for more compression and more power, but in the meantime ride it like you stole it!
RC
FL02SupaHawk996 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Rebuild just around the corner....


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:21 PM.


© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands