Porting
10-07-2018, 07:47 AM
#31
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Turns out an .020" washer fixed it. A tad lean, the TBR's are on now again with the high mounts....one notch down, some oem springs, maybe a single lift hole in the front....let's see how it goes, To be continued
10-07-2018, 10:28 AM
#32
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Ok, this setup is, as they say, the shiznit.
Stock Motor
Lightened Flywheel (1Lb)
TBR High Mount (Thanks Nate!)
HiFlo brand paper pleated filter
89 Octane (See Brock's YT Vid)
New NGK plugs
Pair Delete
TPS 530~ ish
Coolant Line Delete
New OEM Slide Springs
45 Pilot
AF 2.5~ ish
Main 180/185 DJ
Needle 2nd from bottom
Shim F/R .020"
2 lift holes F&R
OEM Velocity Stacks
OEM Emulsion Tubes
Gearing is 1 down 1 up, too low for me, but I understand the appeal.
Perhaps slightly lean on pilot, perhaps a bit less on the TPS will be needed. Easy starting, crisp throttle response. Mega torque--- pulls to redline fo sho! Slight popping on decel. Smooth throttle transition--no choppiness. Sounds HFS good!
Next up is another Dyno run, this one will be much better without a doubt. I have another set of carbs compliments of Fleabay. They came with a DJ kit installed so I'm repairing the slides. I'm making one with only 1 hole for the next experiment. The bodies are being prepped for a full rebuild and some offset taper boring, fun fun.
Stock Motor
Lightened Flywheel (1Lb)
TBR High Mount (Thanks Nate!)
HiFlo brand paper pleated filter
89 Octane (See Brock's YT Vid)
New NGK plugs
Pair Delete
TPS 530~ ish
Coolant Line Delete
New OEM Slide Springs
45 Pilot
AF 2.5~ ish
Main 180/185 DJ
Needle 2nd from bottom
Shim F/R .020"
2 lift holes F&R
OEM Velocity Stacks
OEM Emulsion Tubes
Gearing is 1 down 1 up, too low for me, but I understand the appeal.
Perhaps slightly lean on pilot, perhaps a bit less on the TPS will be needed. Easy starting, crisp throttle response. Mega torque--- pulls to redline fo sho! Slight popping on decel. Smooth throttle transition--no choppiness. Sounds HFS good!
Next up is another Dyno run, this one will be much better without a doubt. I have another set of carbs compliments of Fleabay. They came with a DJ kit installed so I'm repairing the slides. I'm making one with only 1 hole for the next experiment. The bodies are being prepped for a full rebuild and some offset taper boring, fun fun.
10-22-2018, 02:35 AM
#35
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Minor update
Alright so minor updates.
I have settled on SS valves, they will be 1mm OS however the stems will be undersized a tad in order to save on weight. The oem's are 7mm, the SS will be about 5, I will measure and weigh as I go in case anyone wants to compare. The result will not only be a lighter valve and a bigger valve, but a better material and less spring pressure. As it turns out Honda still sells valve guides so I bought a set of OS guides as a benchmark for overall dimensions. The new guides may be made of Ampco 45, I should have an answer on this fairly soon. Either way, if blanks are not available for the guides, we will need to machine them from scratch out of rod. I will update asap. The next Dyno run is November 17, excluding weather events.
AV
I have settled on SS valves, they will be 1mm OS however the stems will be undersized a tad in order to save on weight. The oem's are 7mm, the SS will be about 5, I will measure and weigh as I go in case anyone wants to compare. The result will not only be a lighter valve and a bigger valve, but a better material and less spring pressure. As it turns out Honda still sells valve guides so I bought a set of OS guides as a benchmark for overall dimensions. The new guides may be made of Ampco 45, I should have an answer on this fairly soon. Either way, if blanks are not available for the guides, we will need to machine them from scratch out of rod. I will update asap. The next Dyno run is November 17, excluding weather events.
AV
10-29-2018, 02:44 PM
#36
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I have ordered material for valve guides, if anyone wants in on them I will have some extras for sure. The material will be AMPCO 483, I suspect the guides will be 20$ each by the time they are done. They will be machined o/s per Honda, the ID will be just under 5mm. Let me know and I can make adjustments to the material quantity and number of units made.
AV
AV
12-02-2018, 04:18 PM
#37
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Update* Weather in New England killed my dyno appointment and the rain date. No go till spring. I've been wrapped up with a long over due valve adjustment and some other bit n bobs on my Triumph so the VTR has taken a rest for a while. It's supposed to warm up to 50 tomorrow so I think I can get in one last ride before tear down. The AMPCO arrived, I had to use 45 because the 483 requires a minimum purchase of 1000 lbs. That would be a lot of guides. Tomorrow the old guides come out and I can begin the machining of the new ones. Also, I was mistaken, the OEM valves are not 7mm, they are 6, either way my new SS valves will be 5. Also, my other flywheel is ready for for the chop! 4 lb here we come!
12-30-2018, 10:30 AM
#38
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Updates:
As I've gone along with the porting project I've tried to keep the costs as low as possible and keep the parts as robust as possible in case I decide to make a kit out of it and offer it for sale. In doing so I have made note of a few things that others might be interested in. The VTR has 34mm exhaust valves and 38 mm intake. This, according to many is not correct. Even if I were to make the intake 40mm, it would still be out of proportion a bit. Note: The RC51 intake valve will work in the VTR if you change the seat, so if you are changing seats and want 40mm intake valves you can use an OEM Honda part that is readily available. So, in an ideal world the intake would be 39 and I would actually under-size the exhaust to 32 or 33 mm, which I may do next time around. Valves are expensive (or they can be) as in the case of the VTR where no one seems to have a blank available that can be finished to fit (at a reasonable cost). So I have scoured all my sources for valves that come close, which has led me to the VW VR6 which has a 39 mm intake that is 106mm long and has a 7mm stem with a superior keeper design. This may work and I will know soon if it is reasonable to use. A careful reader of the service manual will note that there are no installed height values published for the VTR, or spring pressure values, or even lift on the oem cams. So all of these things must be worked out in advance of assembling the head if you want to be successful, thankfully it only requires time and patience.
To be continued...
As I've gone along with the porting project I've tried to keep the costs as low as possible and keep the parts as robust as possible in case I decide to make a kit out of it and offer it for sale. In doing so I have made note of a few things that others might be interested in. The VTR has 34mm exhaust valves and 38 mm intake. This, according to many is not correct. Even if I were to make the intake 40mm, it would still be out of proportion a bit. Note: The RC51 intake valve will work in the VTR if you change the seat, so if you are changing seats and want 40mm intake valves you can use an OEM Honda part that is readily available. So, in an ideal world the intake would be 39 and I would actually under-size the exhaust to 32 or 33 mm, which I may do next time around. Valves are expensive (or they can be) as in the case of the VTR where no one seems to have a blank available that can be finished to fit (at a reasonable cost). So I have scoured all my sources for valves that come close, which has led me to the VW VR6 which has a 39 mm intake that is 106mm long and has a 7mm stem with a superior keeper design. This may work and I will know soon if it is reasonable to use. A careful reader of the service manual will note that there are no installed height values published for the VTR, or spring pressure values, or even lift on the oem cams. So all of these things must be worked out in advance of assembling the head if you want to be successful, thankfully it only requires time and patience.
To be continued...
02-04-2019, 03:42 AM
#39
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Installed height.
This is huge. The installed height is critical because it is what determines seat pressure and open pressure. If that is too high it eats up power, valves, valve seats, and basically is a bad idea. Too little and you'll get valve bounce as well as loss of power everywhere but majorly in the higher rpm range. A few things can be determined just by measuring: Spring bind height-- just by compressing the spring and measuring its length you know the bind height. From that number add .030~.050 and you get the minimum installed height, that is, the most you want that spring to compress at any given time. Take all of your oem springs and have them tested in a spring tool to see how close all of them are to each other and what the open pressure is in the first place. To do this you need the valve lift. To get that you can measure the od of the cam base circle and subtract that from the lobe centerline #. That will tell you what the lift is. This is one good reason to buy a few sets of OEM cams off ebay, an exhaust cam may not give you any power if used on the intake side but you may find that the fraction of extra lift + porting + adjustable gears + better springs may equal what you need. Anyway, the lift on an OEM intake is about 9.9mm-- compress each spring that much and note the pressure reading. That is approximately where you need to be for what your new spring pressure readings will need to be at depending on lift of the new cams. Now as far as I know there are no published numbers for the VTR in this regard but there are readily available numbers for solid flat tappet cams, which is basically what ours are. They (flat tappet #'s) state that the open pressure should be 300-325 lbs of pressure and the seat pressure should be about 130 lbs. To get the seat pressure you need to measure the valve installed height via a valve height gauge. That will tell you how much the valve is compressed when installed. Replicate that number in the pressure tester and bam, you'll find the installed pressure. So from all this we have the installed height, open pressure, seat pressure and bind height which is the basis for any valve job. As a side note. The next time you have your VTR apart you can remove the springs and have them pressure tested fairly cheap. New OEM springs are fairly cheap and I think it might be a good mod to just verify installed height and pressure before buttoning it back up. If you pressurize the cylinder at TDC you can remove the springs....
To Be Continued.
This is huge. The installed height is critical because it is what determines seat pressure and open pressure. If that is too high it eats up power, valves, valve seats, and basically is a bad idea. Too little and you'll get valve bounce as well as loss of power everywhere but majorly in the higher rpm range. A few things can be determined just by measuring: Spring bind height-- just by compressing the spring and measuring its length you know the bind height. From that number add .030~.050 and you get the minimum installed height, that is, the most you want that spring to compress at any given time. Take all of your oem springs and have them tested in a spring tool to see how close all of them are to each other and what the open pressure is in the first place. To do this you need the valve lift. To get that you can measure the od of the cam base circle and subtract that from the lobe centerline #. That will tell you what the lift is. This is one good reason to buy a few sets of OEM cams off ebay, an exhaust cam may not give you any power if used on the intake side but you may find that the fraction of extra lift + porting + adjustable gears + better springs may equal what you need. Anyway, the lift on an OEM intake is about 9.9mm-- compress each spring that much and note the pressure reading. That is approximately where you need to be for what your new spring pressure readings will need to be at depending on lift of the new cams. Now as far as I know there are no published numbers for the VTR in this regard but there are readily available numbers for solid flat tappet cams, which is basically what ours are. They (flat tappet #'s) state that the open pressure should be 300-325 lbs of pressure and the seat pressure should be about 130 lbs. To get the seat pressure you need to measure the valve installed height via a valve height gauge. That will tell you how much the valve is compressed when installed. Replicate that number in the pressure tester and bam, you'll find the installed pressure. So from all this we have the installed height, open pressure, seat pressure and bind height which is the basis for any valve job. As a side note. The next time you have your VTR apart you can remove the springs and have them pressure tested fairly cheap. New OEM springs are fairly cheap and I think it might be a good mod to just verify installed height and pressure before buttoning it back up. If you pressurize the cylinder at TDC you can remove the springs....
To Be Continued.
02-05-2019, 03:24 AM
#40
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I have not yet covered the adjustable gears I don't think and that is just as important as anything else. I get two big things from the adjustable gears 1.) The ability to find true TDC and 2.) the ability to change LSA. Regardless of what the timing marks say when we stack the tolerances of all the machined components in that motor we will find that we are off by a C hair here and there. Timing, even a little bit, goes a long way and can be dialed in pretty easy with some time and patience. This part I really don't recommend for a noob mostly because it requires a good deal of experience reading dial indicators and such. Anyway, after the head is set up and lash is correct you can dial in the dead centers to .0001". That is the target accuracy and while it is not completely necessary, it virtually guarantees your motor will withstand whatever you throw at it. After the timing is verified you can then change the timing to however many degrees advanced or retarded you like and, more importantly, you can open up the lobe separation angle to move some of that bottom end power to the higher end of the power band. I think you'll find that aftermarket cams are not totally necessary if you manipulate the OEM cams a bit to work in your favor. I hope to have some dyno time this year to prove what a change to cam timing and LSA will do all by itself.
TBC
TBC
02-05-2019, 10:48 AM
#41
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Some of the other considerations for correct installed height. Not just installed height locks and tops to spring seat, but spring top to vale tip as well.
Spring bind and valve shims thickness is critical,
installed height that is good for no bind, in the correct range for seat pressure (assuming your not using a linear rate spring) also needs to be correct for the required shim thickness and spring tops.
Depending on who's spring tops you use, there will be a min thickness shim that fit in the top and is still proud of the top surface, I also like to keep shim thickness at or above 1.5mm when possible as I have seen the thinner ones crack.
Spring bind and valve shims thickness is critical,
installed height that is good for no bind, in the correct range for seat pressure (assuming your not using a linear rate spring) also needs to be correct for the required shim thickness and spring tops.
Depending on who's spring tops you use, there will be a min thickness shim that fit in the top and is still proud of the top surface, I also like to keep shim thickness at or above 1.5mm when possible as I have seen the thinner ones crack.
04-18-2019, 06:54 AM
#44
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Interesting approach. However, the usual tuning approach is to increase rpm, as the power of an engine is proportional to its rpms. So, let's assume you want to increase the power output from 110 hp (stock) to 125 hp, i.e. by about 14 %. Then you need to increase the rpms accordingly. The rev limiter of the VTR 1000 F is set at 10.300 rpm. Thus, assuming the same power band, the maximum hp needs to shift from 8.700 rpm to 9.900 rpm, and the rev. limit of the tuned engine should be at 11.700 rpm.
04-18-2019, 12:59 PM
#45
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Not exactly, if the engine does not have the volumetric efficiency to support more power, it will not matter how high it revs. This can be observed on any dyno sheet where the power drops off, that occurs because the VE does not allow anymore power to be made due to the physically restraints inherent in the design. Power and RPM's are in no way proportional, power is a direct result of Brake Mean Effective Pressure and Volumetric Efficiency. Additionally there is the matter of piston speed which needs careful consideration especially in the case of a V-Twin with mostly cast components and a fairly long stroke. Lastly, the only way to increase VE is by: increasing compression, improving Velocity/CFM in the heads, altering cam profiles, and reducing pumping loss. Just about everything else is a derivative of those basics in an NA, pump gas, carbed, IC engine.
04-19-2019, 02:03 AM
#47
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Yeah, the yellow is actually a semi-permeable passive membrane that is also heat resistant but power passive. It inducts cool air and releases neutrinos in an algorithmic pattern only detectable by their owners... very rare special edition, I saw on once, only for an instant. I averted my gaze and stood in awe.
04-19-2019, 03:02 AM
#48
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You're damn straight your brain remembers it passing some semis. Passes everything on the road my friend. That's what passing power is all about, buddy. Like you said. I don't know what Totinos and algebra's got to do with it, but you got your mind right about the yellow.
04-19-2019, 01:21 PM
#49
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Not exactly, if the engine does not have the volumetric efficiency to support more power, it will not matter how high it revs. This can be observed on any dyno sheet where the power drops off, that occurs because the VE does not allow anymore power to be made due to the physically restraints inherent in the design. Power and RPM's are in no way proportional, power is a direct result of Brake Mean Effective Pressure and Volumetric Efficiency. Additionally there is the matter of piston speed which needs careful consideration especially in the case of a V-Twin with mostly cast components and a fairly long stroke. Lastly, the only way to increase VE is by: increasing compression, improving Velocity/CFM in the heads, altering cam profiles, and reducing pumping loss. Just about everything else is a derivative of those basics in an NA, pump gas, carbed, IC engine.
06-26-2019, 12:10 PM
#50
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You are right to some extent, but it is not either or. You can increase the power keeping the rpm constant, but only to a rather limited extent. Much more efficient, however, is it to increase the rpm. A good example is the SC 36 (110 hp @ 8.700 rpm) compared to the RC51 (SP-1) with 132 hp @ 9.500 rpm vs. the RC51 (SP-2) with 135 hp @ 10.000 rpm. Another example are the GP bikes back in the 60thies, when Honda constructed a 250 cc 6 cylider engine (RC 166) and Suzuki had a 3 cylinder 50 cc bike, to allow for higher revs for increased power. To cut a long story short, the layout of the VTR 1000 F engine is not made for tunig it to much more than 115 hp.
Read on grasshopper, you have much to learn.
06-26-2019, 12:28 PM
#51
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I realized I have not updated in a while, the V is in a state of punctuated equilibrium as always. Here's the scoop:
Porting: Done
Guides: Need to be machined and installed
Valves: Complete, ready for install
Springs: Complete, ready for install
Locks/Retainers: Complete, ready for install
RC 51 Buckets: Complete, ready for install
Cams: Awaiting quotes from vendors
Pistons: On order
Rods: On order
Very slow progress as of late but that's ok because I've been busy as hell and have no time to install. Rods are a solid 4 weeks out and pistons are only a week away. The cams could be done in as little as a few weeks but it seems as though our vendors are bit overwhelmed with work these days. Just an fyi, if anyone wants a Kent regrind the cost in postage is significant and brings the price almost as high as webcams hardweld. As a result I'm working with Crower at the moment and I hope we can come up with a good grind that will work well. I have a local company that re-hardens and surface treats just about anything so that is not an issue either. After that it's off to cryo and we'll be one step closer.
AV
Porting: Done
Guides: Need to be machined and installed
Valves: Complete, ready for install
Springs: Complete, ready for install
Locks/Retainers: Complete, ready for install
RC 51 Buckets: Complete, ready for install
Cams: Awaiting quotes from vendors
Pistons: On order
Rods: On order
Very slow progress as of late but that's ok because I've been busy as hell and have no time to install. Rods are a solid 4 weeks out and pistons are only a week away. The cams could be done in as little as a few weeks but it seems as though our vendors are bit overwhelmed with work these days. Just an fyi, if anyone wants a Kent regrind the cost in postage is significant and brings the price almost as high as webcams hardweld. As a result I'm working with Crower at the moment and I hope we can come up with a good grind that will work well. I have a local company that re-hardens and surface treats just about anything so that is not an issue either. After that it's off to cryo and we'll be one step closer.
AV
10-13-2019, 08:10 AM
#52
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A wee bit of cleaning and they are ready to be installed. The 39's are a big valve for the chamber and do require considerable un-shrouding but they do fit well and will likely make some noise. The heads were skimmed .003", the oem O/S guides were perfect and the Ferrea valves were spot on in every way. The springs from Kibble White are affordable and appear to be of good quality, all other hardware is oem Honda stuff that has been cryo treated with no other modifications aside from the anti friction coating on the reground cams. All in all it was a major pain in the *** but I have figured out how to get around most of the major issues and I think I could get the price down to well under $1,000.00 usd if motivated to do so. That being said, there is a ton of room left for improvement in these heads, mostly in the combustion chamber but also in valve sizes, port shaping and type of valve train hardware used. With more time and money I could make these heads perform exceptionally well (not merely awesome). Anyway, I am installing the cams now without the new heads as I would like to see how they perform all on their own. When I put it away for the winter I'll get some gaskets and swap the heads with the new cams and make it happen. Unfortunately my dyno guy is no longer working weekends so that will have to wait for a day off in the spring I suppose.
Until the snow flies...
AV
02-17-2020, 03:29 PM
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Update***
The last bit of new I had was that I grenaded my rear cylinder. That sucked, but it motivated me to tear down the motor completely and git-r-done.
No dyno yet but...as of last week the motor is back in and running with the new heads and cams. I drove it today after another heat cycle on the rebuild and I have to say, I am very glad that I took the time to rebuild it. It shifts like a dream and runs excellent. The throttle response is crisp and it is very eager to rev, though I have to say I'm a bit terrified to let er rip as of yet. I will have more info soon.
Important note---I verified beyond the shadow of a doubt, the timing mark that needs to be used is the hash mark below RT/FT. That mark is true TDC regardless of what the manual suggests. This can be verified with a dial indicator on any of our engines.
AV
The last bit of new I had was that I grenaded my rear cylinder. That sucked, but it motivated me to tear down the motor completely and git-r-done.
No dyno yet but...as of last week the motor is back in and running with the new heads and cams. I drove it today after another heat cycle on the rebuild and I have to say, I am very glad that I took the time to rebuild it. It shifts like a dream and runs excellent. The throttle response is crisp and it is very eager to rev, though I have to say I'm a bit terrified to let er rip as of yet. I will have more info soon.
Important note---I verified beyond the shadow of a doubt, the timing mark that needs to be used is the hash mark below RT/FT. That mark is true TDC regardless of what the manual suggests. This can be verified with a dial indicator on any of our engines.
AV
03-15-2020, 12:08 PM
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I'm at 100 miles and the break in oil has been replaced with Dino Castrol. I let er rip to redline a few times today and HFS it pulls hard. From 5 to redline its freight train with somewhere to be! It's a little softer down low below 5 but not by much. I think I'm gonna switch to 16/43 to compensate a little. I can't wait to get this girl on the dyno! These cams are HOT!!
AV
AV
03-15-2020, 12:20 PM
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05-04-2020, 05:05 PM
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Thanks! I bet they will look better with a nice thermal coating on top!! They are getting fitted to the block now and then off to cryo treatment. Once I decide what heads I'm using on this one and then off to coating provided the PTV and radial clearance is good. More pics soon.
AV
AV
07-22-2020, 04:27 PM
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And another update...
I got the rotating assembly back from the balancer today and I am pleased to report that it did not require much to make it balanced. A few grams here and there and all is right with the world. Oddly enough, this is the second time a VTR connecting rod was significantly different from the other (7g)...Anyway not a big deal. So, having the assembly back, I took the time today to check my PTV clearance and surprisingly that is damned good with a stock head and cams. On the exhaust side it has .216" and on the intake it has .247". That is with a stock head gasket, head, cams, and JE 99mm 11.5:1 slugs. Which is really cool because I don't need to cut the pistons at all and assembly can begin soon! Motor #2 here I come.
AV
I got the rotating assembly back from the balancer today and I am pleased to report that it did not require much to make it balanced. A few grams here and there and all is right with the world. Oddly enough, this is the second time a VTR connecting rod was significantly different from the other (7g)...Anyway not a big deal. So, having the assembly back, I took the time today to check my PTV clearance and surprisingly that is damned good with a stock head and cams. On the exhaust side it has .216" and on the intake it has .247". That is with a stock head gasket, head, cams, and JE 99mm 11.5:1 slugs. Which is really cool because I don't need to cut the pistons at all and assembly can begin soon! Motor #2 here I come.
AV
