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Porting

Old 08-19-2018, 01:56 AM
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Porting

So, I spoke with the engine guy last night and the porting is well under way. I don't have gas flow specs yet but it is a vast improvement over stock. Though, I have to say the stock heads looked pretty good all things considered.

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Old 08-19-2018, 02:00 AM
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The crank is done too...When I handed him the crank it weighed 12 lbs 14 oz. It is now balanced, peened, polished and lighted to 12lb. Rods and pistons are essentially unchanged but for some peening, polishing, and lightening for balance--I should have them on hand soon. The heads will be ongoing for a while though I think. 1mm OS valves are next, then springs and dialing in the clearances and finding true centerline. I will update.
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Old 08-27-2018, 08:25 AM
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Love seeing work like this on these old beasts
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Old 08-27-2018, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ACE VenTRa View Post
The crank is done too...When I handed him the crank it weighed 12 lbs 14 oz. It is now balanced, peened, polished and lighted to 12lb. Rods and pistons are essentially unchanged but for some peening, polishing, and lightening for balance--I should have them on hand soon. The heads will be ongoing for a while though I think. 1mm OS valves are next, then springs and dialing in the clearances and finding true centerline. I will update.
Just a question here don't you have to have the oversized Seats for the valves installed to do a proper porting/polish on the heads

Last edited by Stumpy; 08-27-2018 at 08:38 AM.
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Old 08-27-2018, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Stumpy View Post
Just a question here don't you have to have the oversized Seats for the valves installed to do a proper porting/polish on the heads
Yes, or according to a recognized expert
Roger also had this to say reference porting the VTR head
Roger Ditchfield wrote:Hi Tony, Just a word of warning. If you open the ports too much the gas speed will drop significantly and disproportionately even to the point that the bike can become "unfuelable" and "unrideable" even as a race bike. Remember you are treading a well worn path already trodden by reputable and experienced development tuners around the World including HRC. Everything that can be done has already been done but enjoy your experimentation. BTW there was even a conversion of the VTR into 500cc single like the HRD Vincent Comet. Good Luck.
AND

Post by Roger Ditchfield Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:13 am
Be very careful when porting fully other than cleaning up the rough edges/surfaces. To do a full porting job, which should vary depending on the camshafts you install and the exhaust you are using, I suggest you take expert advice or send the heads to an experienced company used to dealing with "V" twins. A full porting job involves a slight difference between the front and rear heads. If you "overport", which is often done by firms using "flow benches" but with little experience of "V" twins the gas speed in practice drops too low with disappointing consequences that are difficult to reliable rectify. Take care and Good Luck
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Old 08-27-2018, 12:46 PM
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Oh yes, I've heard all of the warnings. My man is good, real good, and he does hold hold more records with his porting than anyone else I know of, internet rumors excepted. As for the valves, 1mm OS does not require new seats, any more than that and they do. The reason seats have not yet been done is because valve size will largely be determined by gas flow as a result of the porting. As well the specs of the valve itself depend heavily on the same factors. So, until final flow numbers are in we can't exactly calculate what we need for valving. As it has been mentioned too much is just that, too much. When the numbers are good, Ferrea will step in to fill void and we can see if perhaps HRC and others might have missed something. Anyhoo...this porting is fairly mild anyway, the castings on the SH are fairly crude and allow for quite a bit of improvement. Just by plugging the pair hole the numbers improved right off the bat, and that was just out of curiosity. So yes, cautions heard and noted. I have to say though, KI have had little success in finding any of the hard data that was applied to these heads in the past..anyone have any thoughts?
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Old 08-28-2018, 05:18 PM
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Ok, official numbers are in, 225/235 CFM at 28" of H2o! Stock was about 185. Now we start looking at valves...
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Old 08-28-2018, 05:25 PM
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...and based on those numbers, depending on which calculator you use, that means the heads could support about 120-130 hp which is right where I was aiming with this build.
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Old 08-29-2018, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ACE VenTRa View Post
...and based on those numbers, depending on which calculator you use, that means the heads could support about 120-130 hp which is right where I was aiming with this build.
You could get that with only a dynojet kit, air filter and exhaust, leaving everything else stock (mine measured 122hp).

IMO internal work on this engine is just a waste. The VTR1000F is a great street-sporty bike, but it was never meant to be a race bike... Probably, if you did everything there is regarding the engine and suspension, at best it'll end up 95% of a bone stock RSV1000R, all that while costing at least 2-3x more than an RSV in good shape (not to mention any superbike from '06 or newer).
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Old 08-29-2018, 05:33 PM
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I picked up my SH as an abandoned salvage for $250.00, so far I'm about $500 deep. Pretty far from an RSV. As for 122...I'd call bs unless you have a yellow SH, those have more power I hear.
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Old 08-29-2018, 05:35 PM
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Oh wait, someone on the internet says I'm wasting my time, I should give up asap.
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Old 08-30-2018, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by ACE VenTRa View Post
As for 122...I'd call bs unless you have a yellow SH, those have more power I hear.
Agree.
True story, but it's more like 110.
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Old 08-30-2018, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by ACE VenTRa View Post
Oh wait, someone on the internet says I'm wasting my time, I should give up asap.
Pffffft, compare all they want, end of the day a This or that bike with more powerzs will not be a nice old school unique V twin built by you.

I can afford at this point almost any bike I want, other then some really off the wall limited stuff racer replicas...
But the insurance is stupid expensive on a Triumph Speed Tripple R, or other new modern bike I lust after, even though Im 50 +, 38 years licensed on a bike, no report-able accidents but one that was mechanical failure, a MSF certified instructor and active motorcycle trainer...and still They want a butt load to insure...
and in reality, the NEW bike will give me nothing on the street I cant get from my VTR I BUILT other then looks.
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Old 08-30-2018, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Wolverine View Post
Agree.
True story, but it's more like 110.
Attached is the power curve of my bike. Of course, that is BHP (calculated by the dyno), not WHP- 122WHP on a VTR would likely require at least 150BHP... With so many cheap bikes of 150-160hp on the market, it's be completely ridiculous for me to claim a few extra ponies on my VTR.

Real engine improvements require more than running a Dremel tool on the ports; "performance" engine parts are very expensive. In Europe an RSV1000R (V2 140hp, Ohlins USD, radial Brembos...) in great shape costs 2500, that's around 2900USD- for that money one wouldn't even buy half the parts to get the VTR to those specs (not to mention the time and effort, and how much of that would be lost in case of resale).

I as well could afford almost any bike AND get cheap insurance, but I find the VTR more than enough for the street; after a few more tweaks it will get even nicer, but after a certain threshold it's just trying to turn a mule into a stallion. But each to his own, no need for anyone to get defensive.
Attached Thumbnails Porting-vtr_power_curve.png  
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Old 08-31-2018, 01:00 PM
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i would be asking the dyno man to check his settings.. no storm iv ever seen will pump out 120 with just a filter/jet kit.. to get over 120 you need engine mods.
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Old 08-31-2018, 05:26 PM
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Yeah, check the exchange rate too, 2500 euro is more like 3700 usd, not to mention I can't remember the last time I even saw an RSV...nvm for sale.

Anyway, on to the real meat of the matter...port velocity is the big concern here so here's how it was calculated. The basic concept is to take the valve diameter of 38mm and multiply that by .90 which equals 34.2 mm. The area behind the valve should be right about there, with a 39mm valve it would be 35.1. Do the same for the exhaust side but use the figure of .88x D and you arrive at 31.68 if you have a 36 mm valve. That determines how big the port should be behind the valve seat for that engine and valve configuration (generally speaking) to achieve maximum velocity for that volume. Here's where the thinking really comes in to play. With those numbers we can calculate volumetric efficiency and how lift/duration will effect that. So by moving numbers around on paper i.e. max lift/duration, compression, rpm, etc...we can arrive at that final concept--what size valve should I use, what size radius cut on the valve, what lift and or duration and what is the ideal compression ratio. Some of these are fixed numbers determined by the geometry of the head, others like rpm will be determined by the rev limiter. After shuffling those numbers around we can arrive at a lift that can be supported by available valve springs and wont chew itself to pieces and a duration that works for my application (street/strip). And of course, my wallet...
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Old 09-01-2018, 03:00 AM
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Luckily a lot of people have worked through the night on the SH way before me, so there is some information such as the cams that were made by HRC, Yosh, Moriwaki, Web etc. As with Yosh, they had a tendency to break and were noisy--that tells us that maybe they went a bit too far, but they provide good data anyway. Also we know what oem cams are, which really are not that bad at all. It may happen that with this build I simply regrind my stock cams, degree them in, and be done with it for now. Largely this is an exploratory build to see what will or will not work. Remember I started with an OEM rotating assembly and cams, and oem .50mm o/s pistons with new wrist pins and rings. With the cases trued and the assembly balanced, a slight bump in compression with some porting and cam degreeing can go a long way to make usable power on the street. I would like my successive dyno charts to follow the same curves as now, just a little taller and bit further out, which is why I say 120/130 hp. I think that is an achievable number with mostly used parts and a lot of patience. As far expense goes... if I were to rely on the builder I know strictly as a paying customer off the street it probably would not work out so well for me. But I know him personally and we share common interests...more importantly I pay him without question and I don't bug him to finish my motor. He smokes heavily and likes to BS a lot while he works, it's his thing and I respect that. In return while someone else who needs it "now" is paying top dollar, he can slide in my work at a cut rate when he has a few spare minutes and make it happen. Also, I don't mind doing the legwork even if that means sweeping his floor or cleaning chips off the lathe and setting up chucks. It's all part of the deal to me. I get to see my project come to life one part at a time and I know where every flaw or perfection is. Alternatively there is a dealer near me with a 99' Busa for about 4K. It's sweet, and it will stomp all over the hawk. But I've been in debt before and kind of like Eric said, now that I can afford it, I choose not to. My hawk is paid for just like my Triumph and if I choose to tear it to pieces for no good reason I still get to sleep at night with a 0% APR and no principal balance (and basically free insurance.)
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Old 09-01-2018, 07:12 AM
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I forgot to mention---velocity is 111/112 mps which works out to about 364/365 fps.

Re-cap:

111/112 Mps

225/235 CFM

10,000 rpm

98mm x 66mm

38mm Int

34mm Ex

Factor in OEM cam profiles

9.8:1 CR

I'll work it out later but those are the basic figures I'm starting with, let's see where they theoretically lead.
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Old 09-02-2018, 10:02 AM
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getting the oem ingnition to let it rev to 10k may be a problem?.. i can take no credit for the engine im using as it came from Roger Ditchfield and the guy he done it for who carried on his work but its been stuffed full of mori parts and it peaks at 130 which im more than happy with...

and as you and Erik have said. yes its easy to go buy a bike with more BHP. but thats missing the point lol.....

a bit like climbers climbing a mountain. why do they do it? because its there.
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Old 09-02-2018, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ACE VenTRa View Post
I forgot to mention---velocity is 111/112 mps which works out to about 364/365 fps.

Re-cap:

111/112 Mps

225/235 CFM

10,000 rpm

98mm x 66mm

38mm Int

34mm Ex

Factor in OEM cam profiles

9.8:1 CR

I'll work it out later but those are the basic figures I'm starting with, let's see where they theoretically lead.
stock comp ratio is listed as 9.4:1 (unless you skimmed the heads, of course)
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Old 09-02-2018, 10:52 AM
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Skimmed indeed--for flatness of course. 10K on mine is no issue, it isn't (currently) making power there but I suppose it can now that it is ported. We discussed the LSA today as well as ignition timing etc. After checking the specs on all the known profiles available the oem cams spec out pretty good when you factor in the adjustable gears as far as streetable profiles go without significantly higher compression. Changing the lobe separation angle and retarding the ignition a few degrees will move some of that power up a bit which is where I'd like it to be. Not too high but a bit further along the curve would be good.

**Rev limiter** Does anyone know if the rev limiter can be removed as on the RC51? I did not notice a soft limit, is it used on the SH?
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Old 09-02-2018, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ACE VenTRa View Post
**Rev limiter** Does anyone know if the rev limiter can be removed as on the RC51? I did not notice a soft limit, is it used on the SH?
Not in the same way its done on a RC51...

BUT, and for your build I think this would be the best choice over all....Electronic for motorbikes - IgniTech P?elou? Fully programmable

prices last year when I inquired TCIP4 standard with connector adapterunit TCIP4 standard 141 USDconnector adapter 21 USDFreight DHL 52 USDUseful accessories is USB/COM cable for connection to PC 15 USD
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Old 09-02-2018, 02:01 PM
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an HRC ignition box will also remove the rev limiter (leaving you open to broken cam, as it did me; BTW, mine is the only Yosh cam I have ever heard of having broken, and it was not the cams fault, but caused by the engine over-revving while on the dyno). As for the Ignitech, some have gotten them to work, I never did (tried two different boxes before throwing in the towel and getting a refund from them)
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Old 09-02-2018, 04:38 PM
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Ahh, I love it when the truth surfaces. Ole Pops Yosh is redeemed yet again. I'm sorry Yosh, I'll never speak ill again.
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Old 09-02-2018, 04:41 PM
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I was toying with the TPS today and I noticed that mine does not like less than 5. I tried 490 today and it sucks. very jerky on part throttle. Yesterday it was at 515 and close to perfect. I'm thinking 525 or 530 might be spot on. We'll see tomorrow...maybe.
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Old 09-02-2018, 11:42 PM
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i would be careful raising the rev limit on a big old beast like these. even the race versions didnt really increase the rev limit,back in the day..
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Old 09-03-2018, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by fabiostar View Post
i would be careful raising the rev limit on a big old beast like these. even the race versions didnt really increase the rev limit,back in the day..
Agreed, I wold like to take advantage of the limiter it currently has though, I don't sense that it has a soft limiter but I do wonder if it has one and of it can be bypassed.
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Old 09-03-2018, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ACE VenTRa View Post
I was toying with the TPS today and I noticed that mine does not like less than 5. I tried 490 today and it sucks. very jerky on part throttle. Yesterday it was at 515 and close to perfect. I'm thinking 525 or 530 might be spot on. We'll see tomorrow...maybe.
I agree. I set mine at 490 and I hate it. I need to change and I planned on 520-530.
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Old 09-03-2018, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Wolverine View Post
I agree. I set mine at 490 and I hate it. I need to change and I planned on 520-530.
Likely each bike with its particulars has a "best"
500 on my 1998 was "perfect"
488 (as low as i was willing to cut slots for) works "best" on my current 2001
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Old 10-06-2018, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ACE VenTRa View Post
I was toying with the TPS today and I noticed that mine does not like less than 5. I tried 490 today and it sucks. very jerky on part throttle. Yesterday it was at 515 and close to perfect. I'm thinking 525 or 530 might be spot on. We'll see tomorrow...maybe.
Try putting a Factory Pro 2 degree advancer in it then 500 ohms will work well.
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