Lithum Ion Battery
11-06-2009, 09:22 AM
#1
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Lithum Ion Battery
Ok ok, I know that Speedcell already makes something like this. The difference is that I made this one for about half of what they charge! This battery is tiny, you can't really get a good apprecaition in the video. It's only about 1lb and the size of your fist. Stock battery is much bigger and weighs something like 6lb. I've got some more testing to do with it but so far it's working perfectly.
Below is a video of me starting up my bike at about 39°F with this battery. With the stock battery it would normally take about 3-4 tries to get it to start. After the first try I pulled the choke, it probably would have came to life on the first try if I would have done that up front.
If anyone is interested in one of these shoot me a PM and I'll give you the details about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA7RRiw-1zo
Below is a video of me starting up my bike at about 39°F with this battery. With the stock battery it would normally take about 3-4 tries to get it to start. After the first try I pulled the choke, it probably would have came to life on the first try if I would have done that up front.
If anyone is interested in one of these shoot me a PM and I'll give you the details about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA7RRiw-1zo
11-06-2009, 09:27 AM
#2
evil man of nothing
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That's really really cool. How long have you had it in the bike and how much riding have you done with it? And I love the VF1000R & fairings in the background 
Last edited by captainchaos; 11-06-2009 at 09:32 AM.
11-06-2009, 09:42 AM
#3
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It's only been in there for a couple of days now. The weather has been pretty cold (normal, actually) but we are expecting some decent temps this weekend and the first of next week. I've been focusing on seeing how well it starts up when cold, so the low temps are actually helping there. It appears to be charging just fine too, something else that I want to keep a close eye on.
The Lithium pack has a nominal voltage of around 14V, so it's not quite like a standard motorcycle battery. The charging system will need to boost up the voltage to over that level before it will charge. My bike is having no problems doing that. What I would really like is to find some folks who would want to buy a 'prototype' battery so that I can get more data across several bikes.
11-06-2009, 10:57 AM
#4
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It's only been in there for a couple of days now. The weather has been pretty cold (normal, actually) but we are expecting some decent temps this weekend and the first of next week. I've been focusing on seeing how well it starts up when cold, so the low temps are actually helping there. It appears to be charging just fine too, something else that I want to keep a close eye on.
The Lithium pack has a nominal voltage of around 14V, so it's not quite like a standard motorcycle battery. The charging system will need to boost up the voltage to over that level before it will charge. My bike is having no problems doing that. What I would really like is to find some folks who would want to buy a 'prototype' battery so that I can get more data across several bikes.
The Lithium pack has a nominal voltage of around 14V, so it's not quite like a standard motorcycle battery. The charging system will need to boost up the voltage to over that level before it will charge. My bike is having no problems doing that. What I would really like is to find some folks who would want to buy a 'prototype' battery so that I can get more data across several bikes.
andy
11-06-2009, 11:53 AM
#6
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Good question. What is there with the stock battery? There is no governance, as mentioned charging is something that I will be keeping an eye on. So far I have no evidence that suggest there will be any problems.
11-06-2009, 12:18 PM
#9
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11-06-2009, 12:44 PM
#10
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Yeah, it definitely cranks stronger than my stock battery. It should, at 14V and 240CCA it's got 2V and 60CCA more than a YTX12-BS.
Something else to keep in mind: The stock battery number represents it's rating in amp-hours. That means a YTX12 has 12AH. This means you can draw 12A from it for an hour before it's drained. If you pull 24A it would only last a half hour, and so on. The Lithium battery is only 2.3AH (correction: 4.6AH). What that means is you get a lot of juice, just not for a long time. It's not a battery that you can crank and crank and crank on. Hey, there are plusses and minuses to everything.
Yeah, I like my pipes. You can hear how quiet my voice sounds at the end (I had a cold anyway, that's why I sound so weird to begin with). I'm actually talking pretty loud but the ol' twin has got some lungs!
Last edited by JamieDaugherty; 11-06-2009 at 01:45 PM.
11-06-2009, 01:23 PM
#11
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I'll dig around, I think I have a circuit drawn up somewhere that should be very cost effective...
11-06-2009, 01:24 PM
#12
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Lithium ion batteries need special attention. Especially in relation to charging. The most expensive part of most mobile light setups that use Lithium ion batteries is the specialized chargers used. LEad acid batteries do not require the same type of special attention to heat or charge level, which is why the automotive industry still uses lead acid batteries even in their hybrid cars. If I were you I would do more research before you continue to run that set-up.
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com...n-battery1.htm
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com...n-battery1.htm
11-06-2009, 01:34 PM
#13
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I work for a military contractor and have to design large Lithium packs for every product. One of the nice things about the cells I've selected is they have all of the internal protection devices (like most Lithium cells do). These cells are LiFePO4 chemistry, commonly called "Lithium Ion" but they aren't. They are not nearly as succeptable to overcharging issues.
My biggest concern is not overcharging but rather the motorcycle's system being able to keep it charged at maximum capacity. As mentioned, that's something I'm going to keep a close eye on at first to make sure there are no issues. I've not heard of any problems with the Speedcell batteries so I don't expect any with this one either.
My biggest concern is not overcharging but rather the motorcycle's system being able to keep it charged at maximum capacity. As mentioned, that's something I'm going to keep a close eye on at first to make sure there are no issues. I've not heard of any problems with the Speedcell batteries so I don't expect any with this one either.
11-06-2009, 01:59 PM
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11-06-2009, 02:14 PM
#17
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Ah... If we are talking about LFP cells I'll retract my previous statement... Then they should as you say have all the overvoltage/overtemp stuff in there already...
As for balancing... They are self balancing, but optimally they could benefit from being balanced every 100 cycles or so... So could you plan on including wiring for balancing them in my Beta-test pack...
As for balancing... They are self balancing, but optimally they could benefit from being balanced every 100 cycles or so... So could you plan on including wiring for balancing them in my Beta-test pack...
11-06-2009, 02:23 PM
#18
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Ah... If we are talking about LFP cells I'll retract my previous statement... Then they should as you say have all the overvoltage/overtemp stuff in there already...
As for balancing... They are self balancing, but optimally they could benefit from being balanced every 100 cycles or so... So could you plan on including wiring for balancing them in my Beta-test pack...
As for balancing... They are self balancing, but optimally they could benefit from being balanced every 100 cycles or so... So could you plan on including wiring for balancing them in my Beta-test pack...
Correct, these are Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) chemistry cells. Shoot me a PM when you are ready for a pack and we can discuss prices.
11-06-2009, 02:34 PM
#19
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Well... the toy part of my brain says "NOW!"... The one looking in my wallet say "Um... After X-mas overtime money comes in probably..."
Unfortunately the latter usually wins on walk over...
"Unfortunately the latter usually wins on walk over...
11-06-2009, 04:16 PM
#21
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Yes and no... As long as the engine is running (&charging) it all works as with the stock battery... When you kill the engine you have 4.6 Ah instead of 12 Ah... Meaning it will be flat in a 1/3 of the time...
But you're not sposed to run those things with the engine of anyways, so then you get to do exercise as penance when push-starting the bike...
But you're not sposed to run those things with the engine of anyways, so then you get to do exercise as penance when push-starting the bike...
Last edited by Tweety; 11-06-2009 at 04:20 PM.
11-06-2009, 04:33 PM
#23
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Jamie, I would be concerned about drawing energy from the battery when the generator and r/r are below the battery voltage.
That being said, if you have too many add-ons or an add-on that needs a lot of juice, it could start to draw from the battery. Most likely at idle. I haven't studied the electrical system on my bike, so please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.
That being said, if you have too many add-ons or an add-on that needs a lot of juice, it could start to draw from the battery. Most likely at idle. I haven't studied the electrical system on my bike, so please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.
11-06-2009, 04:43 PM
#24
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Actually a LiFP cell generally has a charge voltage of 3.6V making the charge voltage of 4 cells 14.4V and a nominal voltage or 3.2-3.3V making it put out 13.2V... Much like a normal battery... It should also be charged at 14.4V and "float charged" at around 13.5V... So if the bike is charging according to spec it should work as stock...
But yeah, at idle you aren't charging and you drain of the battery... But I'm not sitting around idling... That's booring...
But yeah, at idle you aren't charging and you drain of the battery... But I'm not sitting around idling... That's booring...
Last edited by Tweety; 11-06-2009 at 04:59 PM.
11-06-2009, 05:29 PM
#25
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I don't know as much about LiFePO4 (I'm more familiar with LiPo) but I believe that overcharging is still something that needs to be governed with active circuitry. The risk you run is if you overcharge the pack and it swells, you could have a hydrogen fire ignite under your gas tank. The reason overcharging is a risk is because lithium battery chemistry has a very low leak down rate so it's very likely that the battery will be nearly fully charged most of the time. If you slab down the highway for an hour without something regulating the voltage/current then it could become overcharged. Heat shielding the battery compartment is probably a good idea too given it's proximity to the rear cylinder.
It sounds like you're very experienced with this type of battery so I apologize if it sounds like I'm preaching to the choir, just want you to be safe and for that sweet sounding 'Hawk to die of old age.
It sounds like you're very experienced with this type of battery so I apologize if it sounds like I'm preaching to the choir, just want you to be safe and for that sweet sounding 'Hawk to die of old age.
11-06-2009, 07:29 PM
#26
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I haven't Jamie's experience work wise... But I'm using them in model aircraft and have been for a while... And one of the main differences between LiPo/Li-Io and LiFP ist that it's non-explosive... Overcharge a LiPo battery and you get flaming death... Overcharge a LiFP and you get... Well, nothing... It's even a bit disapointing after the fireworks of overcharging a LiPo...
As for general safety... I have dropped mine on concrete hard enough to break the end-to end solder, I have shorted two cells together from contacting the casings (it melted the solder!), and I have done all other manner of stupid things that would have made a LiPo battery blow up in my face... The cells still work... The ones that dropped 5 feet are still as new... The ones that shorted still work... They have less than 100% capacity (guesstimating about 70-80%), but they do work...
Overcharging them from 3.6V to about 4.1V doesn't really make much difference... (I have had a few up to 5V and they still work like new!) so that means they are safe for up to 16.4V of charge voltage on the bike... Same for deep discharge... Had some cells down to 0V and they still work... (however if you leave them like that even for a few hours you are screwed...)
However I haven't tested overcharging or continously charging them for extended periods, so I cant say what that does...
As for heat, they are less finicky than LiPo, but the shielding migth still be a good idea...
As for general safety... I have dropped mine on concrete hard enough to break the end-to end solder, I have shorted two cells together from contacting the casings (it melted the solder!), and I have done all other manner of stupid things that would have made a LiPo battery blow up in my face... The cells still work... The ones that dropped 5 feet are still as new... The ones that shorted still work... They have less than 100% capacity (guesstimating about 70-80%), but they do work...
Overcharging them from 3.6V to about 4.1V doesn't really make much difference... (I have had a few up to 5V and they still work like new!) so that means they are safe for up to 16.4V of charge voltage on the bike... Same for deep discharge... Had some cells down to 0V and they still work... (however if you leave them like that even for a few hours you are screwed...)
However I haven't tested overcharging or continously charging them for extended periods, so I cant say what that does...
As for heat, they are less finicky than LiPo, but the shielding migth still be a good idea...
Last edited by Tweety; 11-06-2009 at 07:33 PM.
11-07-2009, 02:36 AM
#27
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This new battery tech is really taking off.. There is another maker using this new tech for batteries being marketed to off road bikes right now. It's an upstart company but gathering quite a following.
http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=786519
http://turntechbattery.com/
Jamie, I'm planning to have the owner send me one of his 5Ah packs for use in the SH, as well as test it in my DRZ485... If you have something available for like testing and evaluation come end of DEC when I get home, I'd rather work with you.
http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=786519
http://turntechbattery.com/
Jamie, I'm planning to have the owner send me one of his 5Ah packs for use in the SH, as well as test it in my DRZ485... If you have something available for like testing and evaluation come end of DEC when I get home, I'd rather work with you.
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