15 min., $1.50, CCTs fix?????
01-31-2009, 09:12 PM
#1
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15 min., $1.50, CCTs fix?????
Has anyone done this CCTs fix??? Try this instead of buying a new CCT. I read this somewhere on another forum and did this to mine and it was easssssssssy!
Honda Cam Chain Tensioners, yes they suck big time but there is a $1.50 fix for the later Hondas, F3 and up. If the CCT has a plug (bolt) at the outer end remove it. Buy a 6X1.25X30mm bolt and nut. Thread the nut on the bolt and install the bolt into the hole that the plug was in. Gently (fingertip pressure only) rotate bolt until it makes contact with the piston. Hold bolt with wrench and tighten nut against the CCT case. Your CCT will now be silent. Why does this fix work? The CCT in the Hondas does not have a ratcheting mechanism. It depends on a left handed threaded shaft that is spring loaded. Due to the locking pitch thread design this shaft cannot back up. Sounds good so far. Unfortunatly the shaft stays in one place so long that the constant vibration wears out the shaft or the nut that the shaft rides in. The shaft gets sloppy and does not exert enough pressure on the chain pad so the chain starts to rattle at high rpm. The bolt fix exerts just enough pressure on the threaded shaft that it prevents the shaft from vibrating and backing up thus eliminating the chain noise. Yes you will have to adjust the bolt but so far I have no historical data as to how long the time intervals are in between adjustments. Maybe some of you big milege people can provide the data. Any way, hope it prevents you from buying a new CCT. Latest data, the cheap fix has been working for at least 60K miles in a Honda F4.
NOTE: I read that the bolt size is actually 6x1x30mm, but i just took long metric bolts that fit the threads and used these. I sprayed them with lubricant so i could use finger pressure to feel contact point. Also, when you take the OEM bolt out, save the washer under the locknut and reuse to keep oil from leaking. Also, on the rear cylinder, oil will run out so be prepared to insert new bolt when you do it. I did the front first. Of course, don't turn motor over during this procedure.
thanks, nathan
Honda Cam Chain Tensioners, yes they suck big time but there is a $1.50 fix for the later Hondas, F3 and up. If the CCT has a plug (bolt) at the outer end remove it. Buy a 6X1.25X30mm bolt and nut. Thread the nut on the bolt and install the bolt into the hole that the plug was in. Gently (fingertip pressure only) rotate bolt until it makes contact with the piston. Hold bolt with wrench and tighten nut against the CCT case. Your CCT will now be silent. Why does this fix work? The CCT in the Hondas does not have a ratcheting mechanism. It depends on a left handed threaded shaft that is spring loaded. Due to the locking pitch thread design this shaft cannot back up. Sounds good so far. Unfortunatly the shaft stays in one place so long that the constant vibration wears out the shaft or the nut that the shaft rides in. The shaft gets sloppy and does not exert enough pressure on the chain pad so the chain starts to rattle at high rpm. The bolt fix exerts just enough pressure on the threaded shaft that it prevents the shaft from vibrating and backing up thus eliminating the chain noise. Yes you will have to adjust the bolt but so far I have no historical data as to how long the time intervals are in between adjustments. Maybe some of you big milege people can provide the data. Any way, hope it prevents you from buying a new CCT. Latest data, the cheap fix has been working for at least 60K miles in a Honda F4.
NOTE: I read that the bolt size is actually 6x1x30mm, but i just took long metric bolts that fit the threads and used these. I sprayed them with lubricant so i could use finger pressure to feel contact point. Also, when you take the OEM bolt out, save the washer under the locknut and reuse to keep oil from leaking. Also, on the rear cylinder, oil will run out so be prepared to insert new bolt when you do it. I did the front first. Of course, don't turn motor over during this procedure.
thanks, nathan
01-31-2009, 09:40 PM
#2
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Actually, while it might make the noise go away, it does nothing to prevent the CCT failure in it self... A bolt filed to the point as a screwdriver locking the shaft does however...
But there is a better way...
A coach bolt and a locknut combined with a scrapped CCT housing makes a manual CCT instead of APE's...
Works just as good as the APE's... cost close to nothing and gives you the satisfaction of doing it yourself...
But there is a better way...
A coach bolt and a locknut combined with a scrapped CCT housing makes a manual CCT instead of APE's...
Works just as good as the APE's... cost close to nothing and gives you the satisfaction of doing it yourself...
01-31-2009, 11:20 PM
#3
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Actually, while it might make the noise go away, it does nothing to prevent the CCT failure in it self... A bolt filed to the point as a screwdriver locking the shaft does however...
But there is a better way...
A coach bolt and a locknut combined with a scrapped CCT housing makes a manual CCT instead of APE's...
Works just as good as the APE's... cost close to nothing and gives you the satisfaction of doing it yourself...
But there is a better way...
A coach bolt and a locknut combined with a scrapped CCT housing makes a manual CCT instead of APE's...
Works just as good as the APE's... cost close to nothing and gives you the satisfaction of doing it yourself...
thanks, Nathan
02-01-2009, 05:37 AM
#4
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Squid
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Hey Nathan,
If you do a search on CCT redo, there some pics of a cct failure and fix.
The fix involves a little work but allows the cct to function as designed and prevents it from backing up.
Also be very careful of pulling the cct out without setting TDC compression stroke on the piston you are working on. In that position the chain has no tension on it and won't move any other position and there is a good chance the chain will jump timing. At that point the engine can be damaged internally.
Mark S
If you do a search on CCT redo, there some pics of a cct failure and fix.
The fix involves a little work but allows the cct to function as designed and prevents it from backing up.
Also be very careful of pulling the cct out without setting TDC compression stroke on the piston you are working on. In that position the chain has no tension on it and won't move any other position and there is a good chance the chain will jump timing. At that point the engine can be damaged internally.
Mark S
02-01-2009, 06:15 AM
#5
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Nope... I'm saying you take this:
And do exactly what you described above, and the tip makes it impossible for the CCT to rotate... (this also makes them "manual" as they can't tighthen themselves...)
OR, which I'd prefer, and what I have done on my bike... Loose the OEM CCT's altogether and go to a manual... Either APE's... Or make your own, like this...
This does the exact same thing as the APE's... but at a fraction of the cost... Note, this is not a pic of my CCT's, I'd recommend welding the end nut to the bolt and using a locknut on the inner nut... This is an old pic on my computer that I found on Ozfirestorm (I belive?) a while back...
And do exactly what you described above, and the tip makes it impossible for the CCT to rotate... (this also makes them "manual" as they can't tighthen themselves...)
OR, which I'd prefer, and what I have done on my bike... Loose the OEM CCT's altogether and go to a manual... Either APE's... Or make your own, like this...
This does the exact same thing as the APE's... but at a fraction of the cost... Note, this is not a pic of my CCT's, I'd recommend welding the end nut to the bolt and using a locknut on the inner nut... This is an old pic on my computer that I found on Ozfirestorm (I belive?) a while back...
Last edited by Tweety; 02-01-2009 at 06:43 AM.
02-01-2009, 06:27 AM
#6
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Oh and to clarify... To Mark S, nath981 and all others... a simple bolt down the end of a stock CCT does NOT in any way prevent CCT failure!
Doesn't matter how snug you tighten down the bolt to the inner plunger or anything else (including the screwdriver filed bolthead)... What happens when the CCT fails is that the internal spring breaks... Then the plunger moves... Keeping the plunger immobile by preventing it from turning makes the CCT "safe" from a catastrophic failure... It can still fail, and still create damage... But it's less likely to grenade the whole engine while doing it...
The two things that prevent it are simple... Using OEM CCT's that is replaced at reasonable intervalls as wear items (like oil change, brakepads, and so on...) or a manual CCT that is adjusted accordingly...
Doesn't matter how snug you tighten down the bolt to the inner plunger or anything else (including the screwdriver filed bolthead)... What happens when the CCT fails is that the internal spring breaks... Then the plunger moves... Keeping the plunger immobile by preventing it from turning makes the CCT "safe" from a catastrophic failure... It can still fail, and still create damage... But it's less likely to grenade the whole engine while doing it...
The two things that prevent it are simple... Using OEM CCT's that is replaced at reasonable intervalls as wear items (like oil change, brakepads, and so on...) or a manual CCT that is adjusted accordingly...
02-01-2009, 07:32 AM
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[QUOTE=Tweety;198211]Oh and to clarify... To Mark S, nath981 and all others... a simple bolt down the end of a stock CCT does NOT in any way prevent CCT failure!
thanks Tweety, appreciate the excellent explanation/pics. what you're saying is that no matter what route you take, the CCTs can fail and the probabilities for avoiding catastrophic are increased with regular adjustment of the manual tensioner.
I did the mod I described previously although I had no rattling. I realize from what your saying that the spring is the problem and eliminating the spring and regular adjustments are your best bet for lessening chances for failure.
thanks, nathan
thanks Tweety, appreciate the excellent explanation/pics. what you're saying is that no matter what route you take, the CCTs can fail and the probabilities for avoiding catastrophic are increased with regular adjustment of the manual tensioner.
I did the mod I described previously although I had no rattling. I realize from what your saying that the spring is the problem and eliminating the spring and regular adjustments are your best bet for lessening chances for failure.
thanks, nathan
02-01-2009, 08:53 AM
#9
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Squid
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I've been wanting to do the DIY CCT mod since I saw it on a European superhawk forum. Now I have the airbox out, I might as well do it. Do you know the specs of the carraige bolt in question? It would be much easier for me to locate an american standard thread versus a metric thread, especially in a stainless steel variety. And I have those taps already. But if you have the metric size, I could convert that to the closest standard size I need.
How often should these need to be adjusted? Is it a mileage issue, or is it more related to sudden changes in engine power, like racing? Lastly, would the use of thread locker, red or blue, be advised on these locking nuts?
How often should these need to be adjusted? Is it a mileage issue, or is it more related to sudden changes in engine power, like racing? Lastly, would the use of thread locker, red or blue, be advised on these locking nuts?
02-01-2009, 10:04 AM
#10
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I used a M8 180mm lenght bolt... Re-drilling and threading is neccesary as the stock cover bolt is M6, so choose your favourite thread and it shouldn't be much of a problem...
I used a nyloc lock nut and some silicone to make sure no oil leaks out the back CCT... It hasn't moved but if you are using a non-locking nut it's probably a good idea to use some of the above though...
I used a nyloc lock nut and some silicone to make sure no oil leaks out the back CCT... It hasn't moved but if you are using a non-locking nut it's probably a good idea to use some of the above though...
02-02-2009, 04:58 PM
#11
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I went down to the local fastener supply and decided on 1/4"-20 x 6" stainless steel carriage bolts. They were $0.72 each in small quantities. Then 1/4" jam nuts and acorn nuts (also know as cap nuts). It's just a little bigger than the M6 that's in there. Looks like it's going to go fairly smooth. I'll update with pics.
03-23-2011, 09:21 AM
#14
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Getting ready to do the manual mod to the stock CCTs'. Finally took the time to search out SS carriage bolts of the right length. Yes, I have searched. I have most likely read every CCT thread on this site. I have a new idea, as far as I can determine, of a way to increase the life of the conversion. Maybe unnecessary and a waste of time to do the conversion this way. What I hoping for is some feed back on the idea.
Here is the question: When doing the conversion the stock CCT lifter body gets drilled out and tapped to the thread size of the carriage bolt to used. What I want to know would it be worth it to helicoil the hole? My thinking is the forces that the stock CCT is being subjected to are absorbed by the ratchet, tensioner spring, etc. When modified, the carriage bolt runs from the tensioner, as shown here as part #3:
1998 Honda VTR1000F SUPER HAWK Parts, 1998 Honda VTR1000F SUPER HAWK OEM Parts - BikeBandit.com
up through the CCT lifter body, part #4 and out the top. It seems the that carriage bolt will have a lot of leverage on the soft aluminum of the tensioner lifter. With the constant vibration and load on the threads of the lifter, I see a potential for the lifter threads getting loose and the worn material from the lifter getting into the oil.
Since I don't have a stock CCT lifter body to examine, maybe those that have and have done this mod can shed some light.
Is this too ****? Am I not seeing the whole picture correctly?
Here is the question: When doing the conversion the stock CCT lifter body gets drilled out and tapped to the thread size of the carriage bolt to used. What I want to know would it be worth it to helicoil the hole? My thinking is the forces that the stock CCT is being subjected to are absorbed by the ratchet, tensioner spring, etc. When modified, the carriage bolt runs from the tensioner, as shown here as part #3:
1998 Honda VTR1000F SUPER HAWK Parts, 1998 Honda VTR1000F SUPER HAWK OEM Parts - BikeBandit.com
up through the CCT lifter body, part #4 and out the top. It seems the that carriage bolt will have a lot of leverage on the soft aluminum of the tensioner lifter. With the constant vibration and load on the threads of the lifter, I see a potential for the lifter threads getting loose and the worn material from the lifter getting into the oil.
Since I don't have a stock CCT lifter body to examine, maybe those that have and have done this mod can shed some light.
Is this too ****? Am I not seeing the whole picture correctly?
03-23-2011, 10:06 AM
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Any extra security is not a bad thing at all. If it makes you sleep better at night, then go for it.
My personal thoughts are that there isn't enough tension of the cam-chain for this to be an issue. The chain should not at all be pressing with any kind of real force against the tensioner. It's really just there to keep the gears from skipping...
My personal thoughts are that there isn't enough tension of the cam-chain for this to be an issue. The chain should not at all be pressing with any kind of real force against the tensioner. It's really just there to keep the gears from skipping...
03-23-2011, 12:17 PM
#16
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7moore nailed it in one.
There isn't a lot of force on them, read on people over tightening the manual CCT with their fingers..
The OEM springs fail probably more due to heat than force... Besides that spring isn't going to push back very hard anyways. So thread failure even in "soft aluminum" I doubt is very likely.
There isn't a lot of force on them, read on people over tightening the manual CCT with their fingers..
The OEM springs fail probably more due to heat than force... Besides that spring isn't going to push back very hard anyways. So thread failure even in "soft aluminum" I doubt is very likely.
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