cliby

I agree completely. While not exactly trail braking, having to apply the brakes midcorner on the streets is nearly essential. Practicing smooth controlled application of the brakes so it doesn't upset the chassis and getting a feel for how much traction you truly have (even while cornering) is just part of becoming a skilled afer rider. Sure at the track when approaching the limits of lean, there isn't a lot of remaining traction for braking, but at sane street speeds for most of us there is still a lot of traction remaining for more lean/more brake or both. Being able to safely use it, will save your butt someday, and you don't want the first time you have to use the skill be an emergency. Keith codes books are great, (though long on theory and aimed at track primarily), there are a couple of more street oriented books that even BarnesNobles sells: something from an editor at MCNews called proficient motorcycing; one by Nick Ienatsch about sport riding technique and another by Lee Parks called Total Control - maybe more real world useful and lots of practice techniques for the street. check 'em out.

trinc

trail braking on the street can be very usefull but only if you understand what you are doing. i'm not talking about the technique of trail braking but why your doing it. if your sense of speed is being overwelmed then a slower entry is the key. we've found ( our weekly riding group ) that one of the major reasons people crash is that their charging into corners ( going to fast in the straight sections ) trying to keep up with a faster rider. trailing the brake can help but if your using it as a crutch it'll bit you in the a$$.

tim

gssbmm

sorry for the late responce I was at the track this weekend. but i think that trail braking and applying braking mid corner are two very differant things.

being able to apply mid turn braking is a very good way of changing lines and avoiding sitiuation on the street. and a great skill to have and use.

where as trailbraking is the continued aplication of the brakes up to the apex of your line, and is somthing that is done at every corner on the track. if you watch video of any raceer entering a corner you'll see the folks compress as there on the brakes. that compresstion contine all the way throughthe corner untill they begin to exit on the gas. if you ask them to go through the same corner as the same speed with out the brakes the would not be able to finish the corner because of the suspention decompressing and forcing them off-line. this is not to say midcorner adjusments can not made but you have to give up something, speed, lean angle, or exit line.

imo if you are truely trailbraking into every corner on the street your pushing the limits of your riding more then I would advise on the streets not because of you but because of all of the things around you that can change anytime you ride a road.

imo if you want to find out what your bike can do please take it to the track. theres just a whole lot less to hit if it all goes bad.

plus I think talking about differant things abotu riding skill can only make us all better riders.

Hotbrakes

I read somewhere about trail braking, and basically it is used to the apex as previously stated. Trail braking keeps the front suspension compressed (decreasing wheelbase and lowering center of gravity) causing the turn in to be quicker and easier and also provides drag on the front wheel pulling it in to the turn. Probably the best way I can think of to explain it is to imagine an airplane banking for a turn. It can fly straight banked over but when the pilot pulls up on the stick it turns very sharply.

Using proper body positioning I think is another major key to using it properly. Some people lean the bike rather than their bodies and trail braking would cause the bike to stand up. If you use your body weight to lean and apply front brake, it will concentrate your weight lower and more inside the front tire.

trinc

there are two forces that compress the suspension, the brakes and the corner ( we aren't talking bumps here ). the idea of not upsetting the chassis is to smoothly transition the braking compression with cornering compression. just because the forks stay compressed doesn't mean they are still trailing the brake.

trailing the brake isn't the fastest way around the track, but it can gain you an advantage over another rider.


tim

trinc

i never suggest people grab the brake mid corner ( no matter how light ) i would suggest using the throttle for minor line changes. since you have a positive throttle ( maintenance throttle ) adding a bit more will widen your line and a slight decrease will tighten your line. if you need a more dramatic change add input to the bars.

tim

gssbmm

well I dissagree with both posts but to each there own. I think if you ask some racers if their useing there brakes at every corner you get some answers you might not expect.

but of course I certinly respect your opinion on the matter

gssbmm

btw watch the brake and throttle lines when ther show the on bike data the next moto-gp race. you'll see brake or throttle. never coasting.

trinc

this is from the superbike school forum: ( written by keith code )

topic: trail braking.

"What I love about forums is their thought provoking aspect. Rider?s comments, and personal experiences make me think. Behind every answer is a question and behind every question there is an answer. This trail-braking issue brings up a load of both.

Ever since I first investigated trail-braking and graphed it and set up some guidelines for it in the first ?A Twist of the Wrist? book in 1981 I?ve mainly focused on its more basic aspect, that of a rider?s Sense of Speed.

Sense of Speed is a rider?s ability to accurately judge differences and similarities in speed from one pass through a corner to the next time they encounter it. No matter how or when a rider is braking his Sense of Speed directs the whole activity. This is the irreducible part of the rider/bike/road combination which must be in good working order.

Following right on the heels of this sense is the rider?s Sense of Traction and I?ll talk about that a little later in this.

One of the other main issues that revolve around braking is the suspension action. The compression and extension that can occur with either 1) straight up braking or 2) trailing brakes into the corner.

Cornering enthusiasts both feel it and understand that making the transition from on to off the brake(s) and entering the turn should be as seamless as possible in order not to upset the suspension (read traction).

On a telemetry graph it would look like a continuous line as the rider released the brake and the cornering forces took over--that goes for either method of braking.

Now if you look at this aspect closely you will see that there is actually another sense which we develop to comply with this demand to make that transition a smooth one.

In order to make this work out we first of all must be aware of the bike?s dive attitude (how far down is the nose of the bike). In order now to make it successful the rider must also be aware of the compression the cornering forces will provide for the speed he has entered the corner. How much will it compress from that force?

A straight line braker?s ability to reckon where the suspension compression will be once he is into the turn plus his timing of letting off the brakes and turning to maintain the compression at that level have to be very good.

The trail-braking rider feels his way into the turn more on his sense of traction and has both forces (braking compression on the suspension as well as the cornering forces on it) acting on the bike at the same time so his job is simplified to a great degree. It more or less eliminates the precision timing and sense of the bike?s pitched-forward attitude that it takes to do it the other way. He approaches the lean, speed, traction more gradually and gets continuous feedback from them.

With the straight line method the rider has to also determine by his feel and prediction just how quick his flick into the corner needs to be to maintain the suspension compression smoothly. A lot of multi-tasking is going on here.

When you realize that this all has to be figured out just BEFORE he does it you see why the two methods are so different.

Here is another way of saying it. The trail braking method privides the rider with feedback as he transitions and the straight line method doesn?t allow you feedback until after you already committed and completed it and there ain?t no fixing it, at least not on that lap.

There is a high degree of confidence in yourself and your prediction of the forces and your other senses of speed and traction and your ability to quick turn the bike that are essential before you?d be willing to make this level of commitment.

Beside all that, there is another huge benefit to learning the straight up/quick flick style. It provides a rider with valuable feedback about tire traction and cornering loads.

When you quick flick the bike with poor timing you get a sudden load on the suspension and the tires. This is the thing that riders get into their heads will make them crash?usually they think they are going to loose the front and go down. They get spooked from that sudden load.

The feeling of the sudden load came from releasing the brakes too soon before they flicked it. The front end comes up from the release and then dives again from the flick in. If you break that down you?ll see that the load, while it may have a little higher peak force, wasn?t anymore than they would have experienced if they had made that transition into the turn with perfect control timing. The sudden load came from their error not because it is part of the style of riding.

This is another one of those things that can become confusing to any rider. They have simply misidentified the real cause of the sudden loading. It could and often is enough to make riders think that they are going to crash by quick flicking the bike.

I think that the facts and the physics of the matter are this: If you had the front tire right at 110% traction and you flicked it in and maintained that load that you would be OK and have a killer turn entry speed. You would not have violated the traction limit of the tire (they like to slide a bit for max traction in any case) and would have learned an enormous amount about traction limits. It?s that commitment thing that makes this
difficult.

I have heard schools of thought that say that trailing the brakes is an ?advanced? skill.
I have heard schools of thought that say you will get passed if you don?t learn to trail.
That may very well be true, I don?t know everything. What I do know is this: Once a rider can successfully and confidently do the straight line method; once he can do it with flawless timing and clean seamless transitions and he trusts himself and is willing to make these commitments, learning the trail-in style is a piece of cake. Doing it in the other order is not so easy.

Keith "


tim

btw: a lot of good info in the forum - i could read it endlessly
http://forums.superbikeschool.com/

superhawk22

You can read all the books in the world over and over again and don't get me wrong they can help but there's no substitue for seat time. Get as much of it as you can and practice only one aspect at a time. If you go out there thinking I'm going to work on body positioning, shifting and braking you'll get yourself thinking too much and that's the worst thing you can do.

As far as when they're doing it guess what everybody rides differently so no two people do it the same. Rossi brakes later than Hayden, Hayden holds it longer than Pedrosa etc.... I like to hold it until I'm right before the apex, release dive it in gas it out. Someone on a twin can get into the gas sooner then someone on an I4 so obviously the two riders will do it differently as well.

Another key to not FREAKING out going into a corner is to make sure you're looking THROUGH the corner. The further down the road you focus the slower it seems you're going, if you focus right in front of you it seems like you're flying. Do NOT, I REPEAT DO NOT focus on the entry point and DO NOT target fixate on where you could run wide or guess what you will run wide. You usually end up where you are looking so focus on where you want to go not where you don't want to be.

cscrawford

Quote: What I do know is this: Once a rider can successfully and confidently do the straight line method; once he can do it with flawless timing and clean seamless transitions and he trusts himself and is willing to make these commitments, learning the trail-in style is a piece of cake. Doing it in the other order is not so easy.

It seems like the pinnacle would be rolling BOTH methods into the same corner. Not that I'm expecting to have flawless timing and seamless transitions anytime soon...

As my neighbor often states "perfection doesn't exist...one can only strive for perfection."

gssbmm

I agree. let alll go rideing and try out a few things and pick what works best for each of us

superhawk22

I say we all meet at Barber!