special tires for the hawk!
04-26-2009, 07:39 AM
#1
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special tires for the hawk!
I just figured out why I've been going through rear tires at a rate of three to one as compared to fronts. Except for racing or bonzai street riding, the fronts are spared the abuse of braking because we use primarily engine braking. Between high torque and engine braking characteristics of the hawk, we need to buy rear tires that have hard center treads to prolong tire life and reduce the need to change tires every 2500 miles. I just bought a BTO-16 to hopefully serve this function. The Michelin 2CT maybe has a hard center?? what others?I don't know.
Also, does anyone know where to find tire weight for all the popular sport tires like the BTO-16's, Michelin 2ct, Pierelli's, etc.?
Also, does anyone know where to find tire weight for all the popular sport tires like the BTO-16's, Michelin 2ct, Pierelli's, etc.?
Last edited by nath981; 04-26-2009 at 07:41 AM.
04-26-2009, 09:17 AM
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Engine braking? I don't think that accounts for much. It's the huge power of the big twin that chews up rear tires. There is lots of little slips due to the large power pulses. The delay between pulses is what allows the tire to regain grip, that's why twins have better rear grip on the track than inline fours.
I've run several different tires and I can tell you that you will never find a rear that will hold up to the milage of a matching front.
I've run several different tires and I can tell you that you will never find a rear that will hold up to the milage of a matching front.
04-26-2009, 01:12 PM
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Engine braking? I don't think that accounts for much. It's the huge power of the big twin that chews up rear tires. There is lots of little slips due to the large power pulses. The delay between pulses is what allows the tire to regain grip, that's why twins have better rear grip on the track than inline fours.
I've run several different tires and I can tell you that you will never find a rear that will hold up to the milage of a matching front.
I've run several different tires and I can tell you that you will never find a rear that will hold up to the milage of a matching front.
I know the front tire probably won't match the rear in terms of street riding, but I'd sure as hell like to have the ratio reduced by way of a harder center on the rear. Anyway time will tell the story.
Last edited by nath981; 04-26-2009 at 01:15 PM.
04-26-2009, 01:45 PM
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A lot of people wear out their rear tires prematurely 'cause they refuse to run them at the manufacturer's recommend 41-42 psi. They've read the "monster mega death liter bike shoot out" advising 28-30 psi for racetrack work at 170 mph and run that pressure for surface streets at 45 mph and highways at 70 mph. Can't figure out why you need a rear tire every 2000 miles? Hey, maybe you're the Valantino Rossi of the surface streets. More likely your tires are under inflated.
04-26-2009, 02:21 PM
#7
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A lot of people wear out their rear tires prematurely 'cause they refuse to run them at the manufacturer's recommend 41-42 psi. They've read the "monster mega death liter bike shoot out" advising 28-30 psi for racetrack work at 170 mph and run that pressure for surface streets at 45 mph and highways at 70 mph. Can't figure out why you need a rear tire every 2000 miles? Hey, maybe you're the Valantino Rossi of the surface streets. More likely your tires are under inflated.
04-26-2009, 02:23 PM
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04-26-2009, 02:37 PM
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I got 9800 miles out of my OEM D204. True it was totally shot by then, thread just starting to show, probably should have changed it at 8-9k miles. The D220 I replaced it with has 5k miles now and looks good for another 4-5k miles. Yeah, I weigh 148 and no, I'm sure not V. Rossi of the streets. I run max pressure 'cause the suspension compliance seems better than at lower pressures, not just because I'm cheap.
Just my opinion but for any place but the racetrack if you're sick of replacing rear tires every 2500 miles try running 41-42/r and 35-36 front. You might like it and spend less on tires.
Just my opinion but for any place but the racetrack if you're sick of replacing rear tires every 2500 miles try running 41-42/r and 35-36 front. You might like it and spend less on tires.
04-26-2009, 02:44 PM
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I just figured out why I've been going through rear tires at a rate of three to one as compared to fronts. Except for racing or bonzai street riding, the fronts are spared the abuse of braking because we use primarily engine braking. Between high torque and engine braking characteristics of the hawk, we need to buy rear tires that have hard center treads to prolong tire life and reduce the need to change tires every 2500 miles. I just bought a BTO-16 to hopefully serve this function. The Michelin 2CT maybe has a hard center?? what others?I don't know.
Also, does anyone know where to find tire weight for all the popular sport tires like the BTO-16's, Michelin 2ct, Pierelli's, etc.?
Also, does anyone know where to find tire weight for all the popular sport tires like the BTO-16's, Michelin 2ct, Pierelli's, etc.?
04-26-2009, 02:49 PM
#11
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I got 9800 miles out of my OEM D204. True it was totally shot by then, thread just starting to show, probably should have changed it at 8-9k miles. The D220 I replaced it with has 5k miles now and looks good for another 4-5k miles. Yeah, I weigh 148 and no, I'm sure not V. Rossi of the streets. I run max pressure 'cause the suspension compliance seems better than at lower pressures, not just because I'm cheap.
Just my opinion but for any place but the racetrack if you're sick of replacing rear tires every 2500 miles try running 41-42/r and 35-36 front. You might like it and spend less on tires.
Just my opinion but for any place but the racetrack if you're sick of replacing rear tires every 2500 miles try running 41-42/r and 35-36 front. You might like it and spend less on tires.
04-26-2009, 04:03 PM
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Try using just your front brake all the time and minimize engine braking. Spirited rides help too. While playing in the mountains today it was either all brake or all gas, very little coasting. I'm running the 16's now and absolutely love them, I am able to nearly endo coming into turns. Looks like the wear is about equal between front and rear. My friend's R1 also wore about the same I think.
With these awesome tires I'm wearing pucks down pretty fast. About 2 rights to each left. What can I do to make the right puck last longer? Oh...I know, switch it with the left hehe.
With these awesome tires I'm wearing pucks down pretty fast. About 2 rights to each left. What can I do to make the right puck last longer? Oh...I know, switch it with the left hehe.
04-26-2009, 04:44 PM
#13
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I'm not sure about your reasoning.
In the 100+ bikes I've owned over the last 45 years, from trials through to superbike racers, I cannot recall one that has not worn out rear tyres at least twice as fast as fronts.
The worst was a Yamaha TZ750 that wore out rear slicks six times as much as fronts - and that was an inline 4-cyl two-stroke, for them what didn't know. You may be aware that a big two-stroke like that has three fifths of ****-all engine braking.
In the 100+ bikes I've owned over the last 45 years, from trials through to superbike racers, I cannot recall one that has not worn out rear tyres at least twice as fast as fronts.
The worst was a Yamaha TZ750 that wore out rear slicks six times as much as fronts - and that was an inline 4-cyl two-stroke, for them what didn't know. You may be aware that a big two-stroke like that has three fifths of ****-all engine braking.
Last edited by PJay; 04-26-2009 at 09:35 PM.
04-26-2009, 05:34 PM
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Try using just your front brake all the time and minimize engine braking. Spirited rides help too. While playing in the mountains today it was either all brake or all gas, very little coasting. I'm running the 16's now and absolutely love them, I am able to nearly endo coming into turns. Looks like the wear is about equal between front and rear. My friend's R1 also wore about the same I think.
With these awesome tires I'm wearing pucks down pretty fast. About 2 rights to each left. What can I do to make the right puck last longer? Oh...I know, switch it with the left hehe.
With these awesome tires I'm wearing pucks down pretty fast. About 2 rights to each left. What can I do to make the right puck last longer? Oh...I know, switch it with the left hehe.
I try to ride what has been referred to as "the pace", which means about 80%
of race pace, on the street. It means that while I may ride with others, I don't race, but ride my own pace, which often turns out faster than others who may be trying to keep up. Of course, except on straight-a-ways where those 170 HP R1's kick the little hawk's ***.
At one time, that was not the case. My theory for many years was that if you weren't falling off, you weren't riding, and I was riding and racing whether it be blind turns, wet streets, in the middle of the night, drunk or sober, high or straight, you name it. Luck was definitely riding with me or I wouldn't be riding now.
I know what you're doing and it's fun. Any of us can buy it anytime regardless of how we ride, it's just a matter of probabilities.
I'm glad to hear that the 16's rock. I put a BTO-16 190x50 yesterday(still have the used BTO-14 front) on the rear with a 6" wheel and I have not got to the end of the tire yet as with the 180x55, even though it seemed that i was leaning as far. So you know what that means. However, it did slide a little twice, but nothing cross-up.
the pucks: get tougher pucks for the right.
04-26-2009, 05:46 PM
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I'm not sure about your reasoning.
In the 100+ bikes I've owned over the last 45 years, from trials through to superbike racers, I cannot recall one that has not worn out rear tyres at least twice as fast as fronts.
The worst was a Yamaha TZ750 that wore out rear slicks six times as much as fronts - and that was an inline 4 two-stroke, for them what didn't know.
In the 100+ bikes I've owned over the last 45 years, from trials through to superbike racers, I cannot recall one that has not worn out rear tyres at least twice as fast as fronts.
The worst was a Yamaha TZ750 that wore out rear slicks six times as much as fronts - and that was an inline 4 two-stroke, for them what didn't know.
Holy Sheites!! you must be rich. that's an average of a little over 2 bikes a year. ****, I get a something I like, I keep it. To each his own. More power to ya mate.
oh yes, my reasoning. Merely the effects on rear tire wear of engine braking: that is approaching a turn in the upper rpm range, releasing the throttle, and backing down(compression/backpressure) to the extent that there is no need for significant front braking, thus using the back tire for braking as well as accelerating. Similar to the jake brake in a truck, which also causes more wear on drive tires, but offers superior control in many road conditions.
Last edited by nath981; 04-26-2009 at 06:00 PM.
04-26-2009, 06:10 PM
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I'm not sure about your reasoning.
In the 100+ bikes I've owned over the last 45 years, from trials through to superbike racers, I cannot recall one that has not worn out rear tyres at least twice as fast as fronts.
The worst was a Yamaha TZ750 that wore out rear slicks six times as much as fronts - and that was an inline 4 two-stroke, for them what didn't know.
In the 100+ bikes I've owned over the last 45 years, from trials through to superbike racers, I cannot recall one that has not worn out rear tyres at least twice as fast as fronts.
The worst was a Yamaha TZ750 that wore out rear slicks six times as much as fronts - and that was an inline 4 two-stroke, for them what didn't know.
04-26-2009, 06:17 PM
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Sounds like you need to quit ham fisting it from light to light. Try being smooth. Riding around town will surely slaughter a rear much before a front. One of my reasons for only riding twisty roads. I got 8k out of a BT-021 rear on my VFR riding to Cali loaded down and mostly interstate. Kept it at 42psi. I think its the nature of the beast though, rears just go faster.
What kind of rear rim are you running that is 6" wide?
What kind of rear rim are you running that is 6" wide?
04-26-2009, 09:14 PM
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Sounds like you need to quit ham fisting it from light to light. Try being smooth. Riding around town will surely slaughter a rear much before a front. One of my reasons for only riding twisty roads. I got 8k out of a BT-021 rear on my VFR riding to Cali loaded down and mostly interstate. Kept it at 42psi. I think its the nature of the beast though, rears just go faster.
What kind of rear rim are you running that is 6" wide?
What kind of rear rim are you running that is 6" wide?
if you rode to california on your VFR on interstates, you would not have much opportunity for the type of engine braking I'm referring to. It really doesn't apply. It would stand to reason that you could get high mileage out of the tires: constant speeds, minimal stopping and starting. no comparo.
6" wheel is a carrozzeria I just bought from inderocker.
04-26-2009, 09:33 PM
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PS I just edited my first post on the thread, to record that the big 2-strokes have very little engine braking, so that hardly accounted for the 6:1 ratio rears to fronts our special TZ750 used.
Last edited by PJay; 04-26-2009 at 10:50 PM.
04-27-2009, 11:04 AM
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I have been running a set of Continental Road Attacks and they have been great. Over 9000 miles and they have been wearing pretty evenly front and rear with probably another 2000 miles or so left before they are unsafe. Heck, I got caught in the nastiest storm so far this year and the torrential rains produced some 'Road Rivers' to which these thinning tires just cruised right through. It was the random dime sized (almost 18mm) hail forcing me to get under the awning of a gas station and the 40+ mph straightline winds.
The new Road Attacks were designed to fit more rubber without significantly increasing the rolling diameter. I would best describe them as sport mileage tires. These tires have been great for the daily commute (50-60 miles a day at a minimum) and are good up until the factory front suspension becomes inadequate. I took them up to Deals Gap back early March and found them to be wonderful on the superslabs and the back roads. Held up well until the front end would start to push out when my pace increased. I'm no Rossi but, I surprised some of the more experienced riders I was with riding more capable bikes than a stock suspension S'Hawk. I bought springs and emulators after getting back from the Dragon.
If you aren't constantly riding on the bleeding edge of traction and mainly commuting, I would highly reccommend these tires. Commuting with the occasional above moderate blast through the curves, these tires hold their own.
The new Road Attacks were designed to fit more rubber without significantly increasing the rolling diameter. I would best describe them as sport mileage tires. These tires have been great for the daily commute (50-60 miles a day at a minimum) and are good up until the factory front suspension becomes inadequate. I took them up to Deals Gap back early March and found them to be wonderful on the superslabs and the back roads. Held up well until the front end would start to push out when my pace increased. I'm no Rossi but, I surprised some of the more experienced riders I was with riding more capable bikes than a stock suspension S'Hawk. I bought springs and emulators after getting back from the Dragon.
If you aren't constantly riding on the bleeding edge of traction and mainly commuting, I would highly reccommend these tires. Commuting with the occasional above moderate blast through the curves, these tires hold their own.
04-28-2009, 05:42 AM
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when I bought the wheels, didn't know it was a six inch. i know you can either 180 or 190 so I thought I'd go wider and see what happened. The biggest thing I found immediately was the 2lbs increase between the bto-14 and the 190 bto 16, and I don't like that part for sure. the handling is different, but too early(100 miles) to speak definitively, other than lean than previously got to the edges of the 180 now leaves 1/2 inch chicken strips. I'll report after more experience.
04-28-2009, 05:53 AM
#23
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I have enjoyed the maxxis presa sports. my guess is around 7000 miles of some brake stands, wheelies, riding hard and such and the rear is almost down to the ware indicator. sticky like pilots little cheaper then pilots( i think, when i got them it cost me $242 shipped, then $15 to get each mounted. but i belive they have hiked the prices up on the but still an excellent tire.
04-29-2009, 02:51 PM
#24
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when I bought the wheels, didn't know it was a six inch. i know you can either 180 or 190 so I thought I'd go wider and see what happened. The biggest thing I found immediately was the 2lbs increase between the bto-14 and the 190 bto 16, and I don't like that part for sure. the handling is different, but too early(100 miles) to speak definitively, other than lean than previously got to the edges of the 180 now leaves 1/2 inch chicken strips. I'll report after more experience.
+1 on the handling and chicken strips! I am currently running a 190 rear and to get rid of the chicken strips, I have to lay it over to the point of loosing traction to get to the edges which have resulted in a couple low sides. But hey, they're gone
.Best mileage from your tires will be @ spec or close to it. I run 38psi front and 44psi rear. I am heavier than most of you and the couple extra pounds in the tires go along way!
04-29-2009, 07:40 PM
#25
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+1 on the Conti Attacks, my Sport front has some cupping issues & the Road rear is about done because its squared off though the side tread is still groovy. Not bad for over 8,500+ miles. Longest lasting rear I've ever run and great in the rain! Better than the prior version of the Avon Sts.
04-30-2009, 04:14 AM
#26
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+1 on the handling and chicken strips! I am currently running a 190 rear and to get rid of the chicken strips, I have to lay it over to the point of loosing traction to get to the edges which have resulted in a couple low sides. But hey, they're gone .
Best mileage from your A will be @ spec or close to it. I run 38psi front and 44psi rear. I am heavier than most of you and the couple extra pounds in the tires go along way!
.Best mileage from your A will be @ spec or close to it. I run 38psi front and 44psi rear. I am heavier than most of you and the couple extra pounds in the tires go along way!
have to be draggin elbows to get rid of the chicken strips.
04-30-2009, 06:36 AM
#27
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i see most of you responding here and are getting good rear mileage comparative to my 2500 miles(maybe there is three to five hundred left, so max 3000mi), but no one is running the BTO-14. The BTO-14 seems to be notably a low mileage tire according to what I've been reading from others who have had similar experiences.
Also, most seem to be running max pressure regardless of weight. I understand that running max pressure is going to yeild better mileage, but it must compromise handling abilities and ride characteristics including smoothness/bump absorption. I doesn't make sense to me run max pressure, barring the desire for increasing mileage or because of max weight/load, when riding aggressively at close to max lean angles. I'm not saying it can't be done, because I've done it before i began reducing pressure years ago. but with pressures matched to more closely match weight coniderations, handling and overall ride seem vastly improved.
Obviously, I'm willing to sacrifice some mileage for improved traction and comfort/smoothness, but the BTO-14 has established a new low in terms of mileage albeit great relative to grip.
The engine braking effects on center of the tire wear are likely a result of manner of riding the hawk of other bikes with similar deceleration compression and of course air pressure. Running lower pressure and decelerating from 7500+rpms wipe my centers quickly despite mimimizing straight road travel. It will be interesting to see what happens to the center of the multi-compound BTO-16 I just put on.
Also, most seem to be running max pressure regardless of weight. I understand that running max pressure is going to yeild better mileage, but it must compromise handling abilities and ride characteristics including smoothness/bump absorption. I doesn't make sense to me run max pressure, barring the desire for increasing mileage or because of max weight/load, when riding aggressively at close to max lean angles. I'm not saying it can't be done, because I've done it before i began reducing pressure years ago. but with pressures matched to more closely match weight coniderations, handling and overall ride seem vastly improved.
Obviously, I'm willing to sacrifice some mileage for improved traction and comfort/smoothness, but the BTO-14 has established a new low in terms of mileage albeit great relative to grip.
The engine braking effects on center of the tire wear are likely a result of manner of riding the hawk of other bikes with similar deceleration compression and of course air pressure. Running lower pressure and decelerating from 7500+rpms wipe my centers quickly despite mimimizing straight road travel. It will be interesting to see what happens to the center of the multi-compound BTO-16 I just put on.
04-30-2009, 09:06 AM
#28
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Also, most seem to be running max pressure regardless of weight. I understand that running max pressure is going to yeild better mileage, but it must compromise handling abilities and ride characteristics including smoothness/bump absorption. I doesn't make sense to me run max pressure, barring the desire for increasing mileage or because of max weight/load, when riding aggressively at close to max lean angles. I'm not saying it can't be done, because I've done it before i began reducing pressure years ago. but with pressures matched to more closely match weight coniderations, handling and overall ride seem vastly improved.
04-30-2009, 02:24 PM
#29
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I stopped buying expensive rear tires for my street ride.
I started using dunlop qualifier 190/55 (160 bucks retail) on rear and guess what?
Once you get them scrubbed in good,( no chikken strips ) they actually stick to the ground good.
I keep my Metzeller M3s on front and the combo works great.
Many times I drag my pegs thru turns, and that cheap *** dunlop has never scared me.
I would venture out to Henderson or somewhere on track day with this tire.
We know of course it wont hang with the M3s I usually ran on that wheel, but it outlasts one by 3x.
It has a harder center than the sideawalls, so Im getting almost 10,000 miles out of one.
I started using dunlop qualifier 190/55 (160 bucks retail) on rear and guess what?
Once you get them scrubbed in good,( no chikken strips ) they actually stick to the ground good.
I keep my Metzeller M3s on front and the combo works great.
Many times I drag my pegs thru turns, and that cheap *** dunlop has never scared me.
I would venture out to Henderson or somewhere on track day with this tire.
We know of course it wont hang with the M3s I usually ran on that wheel, but it outlasts one by 3x.
It has a harder center than the sideawalls, so Im getting almost 10,000 miles out of one.
04-30-2009, 05:36 PM
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uh oh....i just put on BT014's to replace my BT015's which arent so much done as they took chemical abuses, and are starting to weather crack...
hopefully i get more than 2500 miles out of my rear....in which case i'm going with a BT016 rear...
hopefully i get more than 2500 miles out of my rear....in which case i'm going with a BT016 rear...
