Situation: flywheel. Need recommendations
03-10-2010, 07:02 PM
#1
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Situation: flywheel. Need recommendations
The hawk has recently brought me down a road I haven't wanted to go on yet. But at this point I have no choice...
Brought it to the shop dec 19 for carb work, I did the factory pro jet kit, and needed to have it professionally tuned. Cost: $240 They got it but in order to put it on the dyno to test it they told me that I needed new tires cause somehow I had lodged a screw in the rear. Lucky I had a spare set for a situation like this and just had them mounted, Cost now:$330. I get a call a couple days later saying the charging system isn't working correctly and the voltage regulator needs to be replaced (for the 3rd time). Found one. Cost now $375 and rising. Regulator installed and the next day the phone rings, charging system still isn't working properly. Voltage checked everywhere, problem is the flywheel.
So my pockets are empty now. I have no more cash for another month. So I think my options are to try to clean and lighten the flywheel I have (IS IT POSSIBLE? WILL IT WORK?) or buy a new one, next month when I have the money, DAAAANNNGG what do I do!?!
Brought it to the shop dec 19 for carb work, I did the factory pro jet kit, and needed to have it professionally tuned. Cost: $240 They got it but in order to put it on the dyno to test it they told me that I needed new tires cause somehow I had lodged a screw in the rear. Lucky I had a spare set for a situation like this and just had them mounted, Cost now:$330. I get a call a couple days later saying the charging system isn't working correctly and the voltage regulator needs to be replaced (for the 3rd time). Found one. Cost now $375 and rising. Regulator installed and the next day the phone rings, charging system still isn't working properly. Voltage checked everywhere, problem is the flywheel.
So my pockets are empty now. I have no more cash for another month. So I think my options are to try to clean and lighten the flywheel I have (IS IT POSSIBLE? WILL IT WORK?) or buy a new one, next month when I have the money, DAAAANNNGG what do I do!?!
03-11-2010, 12:24 AM
#5
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Sorry about your troubles. Flywheels do not go bad, they might break, or have a key shear, but they do not all of a sudden go bad. If it were me, I would have them stop where they are and get the bike out of there.
OR
If you think that they are an OK dealer, ask them to show you the problem, maybe there is some communication issue. Was it the mechanic that you spoke with, or the 18 year old kid that works the phone? I was that kid 30 years ago... Usually there is one person in the shop that knows what they are doing, see if you can speak with him / her. If not, then get out.
Take a look at the manual - I think it is chap 16 on electrial - do some debugging of your own. A $20 meter from Radioshack or Lowes is all that you need. At least that way you can be more informed when dealing with these guys.
OR
If you think that they are an OK dealer, ask them to show you the problem, maybe there is some communication issue. Was it the mechanic that you spoke with, or the 18 year old kid that works the phone? I was that kid 30 years ago... Usually there is one person in the shop that knows what they are doing, see if you can speak with him / her. If not, then get out.
Take a look at the manual - I think it is chap 16 on electrial - do some debugging of your own. A $20 meter from Radioshack or Lowes is all that you need. At least that way you can be more informed when dealing with these guys.
03-11-2010, 02:57 AM
#6
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The flywheel doesn't have very much to do with the charging... The stator might... But that's a 1 in 100 odds... In my experience there are two main failure modes...
Number one is the R/R... Number two is oxide, bad contact somewhere, usually in the ground circuit (and this usually kills the R/R)...
A bad battery or stator isn't a failure mode... It's a sympthom...
Number one is the R/R... Number two is oxide, bad contact somewhere, usually in the ground circuit (and this usually kills the R/R)...
A bad battery or stator isn't a failure mode... It's a sympthom...
03-11-2010, 08:02 AM
#7
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Shop supervisor to mechanic: "We got a live one here, he seems to be willing to keep paying for stuff, see what else you can break and get him to pay for."
Getting jet kit tuned: worth it. The rest: do yourself for 1/8 that price.
FYI the flywheel is not connected to the charging system.. It'd be like saying that your car won't start because you left the front door at home open. (If they can't tell the difference between a flywheel and a stator get your bike out of their hands ASAP)
Getting jet kit tuned: worth it. The rest: do yourself for 1/8 that price.
FYI the flywheel is not connected to the charging system.. It'd be like saying that your car won't start because you left the front door at home open. (If they can't tell the difference between a flywheel and a stator get your bike out of their hands ASAP)
Last edited by lazn; 03-11-2010 at 08:04 AM.
03-11-2010, 09:21 AM
#10
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Sorry I just looked at the ronayers site and they list it as one, however the flywheel has a large cup shaped magnet bolted to it.
Last edited by zmaniv; 03-11-2010 at 09:58 AM.
03-11-2010, 09:47 AM
#11
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The rotor has field windings, not magnets.. And the flywheel is for smoothing power pulses and having momentum to move through the rest of the 4 cycles post power cycle, and nothing to do with any kind of electricity.
03-11-2010, 10:02 AM
#12
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The bowl shaped piece that mounts to the flywheel is an integral part of it. Once it is bolted in place, it is no longer a separate piece - but I guess we're talking semantics, or something.
This bowl part has integral permanent magnets, and is the rotor, which drives the current in the stator of the alternator.
Having said that, it is hard to imagine that it would "go bad".
check the connector on the left side of the bike, behind the rear ign coil with the 30 amp fuse. It is the starter relay, where the main power comes from the battery, but it also supplies juice to the rest of the electrical system.
Look for the red connector and the battery + and starter cables. There are 4 contacts that can become corroded from getting wet when you wash your bike. This will play havoc with your charging system. Pull the connector off and inspect and clean the contacts.
This bowl part has integral permanent magnets, and is the rotor, which drives the current in the stator of the alternator.
Having said that, it is hard to imagine that it would "go bad".
check the connector on the left side of the bike, behind the rear ign coil with the 30 amp fuse. It is the starter relay, where the main power comes from the battery, but it also supplies juice to the rest of the electrical system.
Look for the red connector and the battery + and starter cables. There are 4 contacts that can become corroded from getting wet when you wash your bike. This will play havoc with your charging system. Pull the connector off and inspect and clean the contacts.
03-11-2010, 10:07 AM
#13
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The bowl shaped piece that mounts to the flywheel is an integral part of it. Once it is bolted in place, it is no longer a separate piece - but I guess we're talking semantics, or something.
This bowl part has integral permanent magnets, and is the rotor, which drives the current in the stator of the alternator.
Having said that, it is hard to imagine that it would "go bad".
check the connector on the left side of the bike, behind the rear ign coil with the 30 amp fuse. It is the starter relay, where the main power comes from the battery, but it also supplies juice to the rest of the electrical system.
Look for the red connector and the battery + and starter cables. There are 4 contacts that can become corroded from getting wet when you wash your bike. This will play havoc with your charging system. Pull the connector off and inspect and clean the contacts.
This bowl part has integral permanent magnets, and is the rotor, which drives the current in the stator of the alternator.
Having said that, it is hard to imagine that it would "go bad".
check the connector on the left side of the bike, behind the rear ign coil with the 30 amp fuse. It is the starter relay, where the main power comes from the battery, but it also supplies juice to the rest of the electrical system.
Look for the red connector and the battery + and starter cables. There are 4 contacts that can become corroded from getting wet when you wash your bike. This will play havoc with your charging system. Pull the connector off and inspect and clean the contacts.
03-11-2010, 10:35 AM
#17
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thanks for the recommendations so far guys.... I've been doing my homework on the issue. Been paroozing the internet and talked to 2 other shops, they haven't seen a flywheel go bad, ever. And I didn't find anything online to support this theory either. Since it is just a rotating mass it is hard to fathom that such a part could go bad, unless of course it breaks into pieces. that being said the shop (SVM) who is in possession of the bike said they have seen a flywheel lose its magnetism twice before, once it was without explanation, and the other time because the bike went down on the left side.
Pieces of the puzzle are starting to make me want to believe that SVM is playing for my team and trying to help me here, and not just trying to take my money. This is because my bike has gone down on the left side, granted it wasn't hard, it was in the dirt, and it was wearing protection (frame sliders). Then there's the side of me that knows that SVM can seen the scratches on the crankcase cover and will fulfill their hypothesis that the flywheel has lost its magnetism because the bike has been down on that side.
On a good note I did stop by the shop and rode it today. Little chilly at 35 F but nice to get on the bike since its been 2.5 months. Part of me wants to resolve the charging issue (that's the pride) and then there's me who just wants to get the bike back and say screw the charging system, and just ride it...
Pieces of the puzzle are starting to make me want to believe that SVM is playing for my team and trying to help me here, and not just trying to take my money. This is because my bike has gone down on the left side, granted it wasn't hard, it was in the dirt, and it was wearing protection (frame sliders). Then there's the side of me that knows that SVM can seen the scratches on the crankcase cover and will fulfill their hypothesis that the flywheel has lost its magnetism because the bike has been down on that side.
On a good note I did stop by the shop and rode it today. Little chilly at 35 F but nice to get on the bike since its been 2.5 months. Part of me wants to resolve the charging issue (that's the pride) and then there's me who just wants to get the bike back and say screw the charging system, and just ride it...
03-11-2010, 12:10 PM
#20
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And the last statement about the cover is exactly how I would test to see if the magnets were still good. Does it try to rip the cover out of your hand when you go to install it. If so, that's not the problem and I have never seen one go bad. Get dropped or damaged, sure but not just magically go bad. Then again. if they dropped it of a work bench it could well be FUBARed.....
03-11-2010, 01:03 PM
#21
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Is it an alternating generator, or a generating alternator?
I'm glad I don't have to answer that. I do know that the imaginary plane is perpendicular to the real one. I didn't know that until I understood rotordynamics though. I could never get my head around it when the electrical guys tried to explain it.
I'm glad I don't have to answer that. I do know that the imaginary plane is perpendicular to the real one. I didn't know that until I understood rotordynamics though. I could never get my head around it when the electrical guys tried to explain it.
03-11-2010, 01:54 PM
#22
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As far as the bike and bike shop goes, my mom used to say..."seems damned funny..."
03-11-2010, 02:00 PM
#23
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The simple flow is:
The alternator puts out AC voltage from the engine, ranging from about 12 VAC at proper idle RPM, to up to mybe 40 VAC as you rev the engine.
The regulator then keeps the voltage to ~14.4 or so VAC, there is some heat generated from this step.
Then the rectifier converts the ac voltage to dc voltage. This is where most of the heat comes into play and why RR (regulator / rectifier combo) units cook themselves sometimes.
The flywheel has magnets in it. Put a screwdiriver on it and see it stick. They almost never go bad. The stator has coils of wire spooled up - they go bad sometimes, but not all that often. RRs go bad all the time due to heat.
You can trace the current path to trouble-shoot with a volt meter. Shops tend to hit and miss by replacing parts.
The alternator puts out AC voltage from the engine, ranging from about 12 VAC at proper idle RPM, to up to mybe 40 VAC as you rev the engine.
The regulator then keeps the voltage to ~14.4 or so VAC, there is some heat generated from this step.
Then the rectifier converts the ac voltage to dc voltage. This is where most of the heat comes into play and why RR (regulator / rectifier combo) units cook themselves sometimes.
The flywheel has magnets in it. Put a screwdiriver on it and see it stick. They almost never go bad. The stator has coils of wire spooled up - they go bad sometimes, but not all that often. RRs go bad all the time due to heat.
You can trace the current path to trouble-shoot with a volt meter. Shops tend to hit and miss by replacing parts.
03-11-2010, 04:55 PM
#24
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like what has been said above I would go and just check the output on things there is way more chance that a connection is dirty or screwed up some how that your flywheel/stator not saying that it can't go out I have seen them go out on other bikes but they generally are a lot older than our hawks.. Good luck with the fix
03-12-2010, 07:54 AM
#28
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Now you've got me thinking...
Automotive alternators use electromagnets for the field.
As I understand it, an alternator creates an axial sine wave with the alternating, triangular arrangement of these magnets.
I would guess that a generator is different, because the magnet poles run axially and create a circumferential sine wave, using a different coil arrangement in the stator.
Is that a rough description of the structural difference?
I still don't know the VTR magnet arrangement, but I am guessing that it's a generating alternator, not an alternating generator.
In that case, I think you should definitely inspect the flux capacitor.
Automotive alternators use electromagnets for the field.
As I understand it, an alternator creates an axial sine wave with the alternating, triangular arrangement of these magnets.
I would guess that a generator is different, because the magnet poles run axially and create a circumferential sine wave, using a different coil arrangement in the stator.
Is that a rough description of the structural difference?
I still don't know the VTR magnet arrangement, but I am guessing that it's a generating alternator, not an alternating generator.
In that case, I think you should definitely inspect the flux capacitor.
03-12-2010, 02:19 PM
#30
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It's only called an "alternator" because it generates alternating current (AC). The rectifier bridge (6 diodes, 3 pos and 3 neg) "straightens" out the AC to DC so it can be used to charge automotive and motorcycle batteries.
Things would be really screwed up with cars now if they had gone through with the 42 volt system that was proposed in the late 90's. That idea was finally scrapped several years ago.
Things would be really screwed up with cars now if they had gone through with the 42 volt system that was proposed in the late 90's. That idea was finally scrapped several years ago.
