General Discussion Anything SuperHawk Related

SH doesn't feel strong enough

Old 07-07-2015, 03:12 PM
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SH doesn't feel strong enough

Ok so I know this might sound odd but I'm new to writing on forums but I have been reading a lot on this site and have learned a great deal about my SH. However I do have a few questions I was hoping could be answered for me first of all I've owned my SH since April this year and it is my third bike my first was a EX500 ninja and my second bike was an R1 that was a big upgrade! Ok for my questions, first of all let me explain what "upgrades" my bike has. K&N air filter with larger air box opening, MIG exhaust system complete from headers back both stacked on right side, PO claims Dynojet kit and tuned, MCCT's, pairectomy, cam cover reed valves flipped over. These are some of the things I've found so far but I'm a little reluctant that these are really upgrades because I don't think a SV650 should be able to take me on acceleration or am I wrong ?
#1. What is the original jet size for SH and are the original jets better than a jet kit ?
#2. My hawk doesn't feel like a bike that makes 100hp or could it be that my last bike made 165hp and was fuel injected. So the question I guess is I don't have anything to compare my hawk to except my R1. I still think it's not running right so how can I tell ?
#3. What I would like to get out of my hawk is maximum smooth acceleration not so much worried about top speed although I still want it to be able to hit a buck 20 or 30 but get there quick!! So what do I need to change ?
I have been reading on here about people getting 2nd gear spin or pulling a wheelie with ease and I'm just not feeling that from my bike it acts like its being held back, the idle fluctuates up and down and if I don't turn idle up to 1700 or so it continually dies when I brake hard, it as some popping on deceleration, a little hesitant when getting on the throttle. Well I will stop now and let some of yall hopefully help me out. Thanks ahead of time for any and all help.
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Old 07-07-2015, 03:38 PM
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First of all welcome to the forum! not sure if this is your introduction or not...

second of lets see some pics!

third of all moving from an R1 to this... your going to have to use that right wrist a lil more lol, and yes this should pull away from an sv650

fourth, the dynojet kit, K&N and modded airbox can be a bitch to tune in their own respects let alone together...

fifth, original jet sizes are 175 178 I believe but the dynojets arent measured the same as factory...

And lastly my bike has no problem doing 140+ quickly and will loft the front in second (when I'm not trying to wheelie)
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Old 07-07-2015, 09:36 PM
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Yeah, that is a lot of mods that may or may not be working well together. Few guys on here have gotten the k&n to do much good, let alone change airbox dimentions and jetting.

Jetting carbs is a dying art. Many shops wont even try. You may want to go back to a stock air filter and at least see what is in the carbs jet wise. That would at least give you a starting point.

Without that it is really a shot in the dark. No way to tell what to do to fix things.

Lastly, what rpm are you shifting at. If you shift at 3k the pretty much anything can get past you. You cant scream this bike but it does need to spin a little.
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Old 07-08-2015, 02:07 AM
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Very good advice in the above posts. Given the description I would venture to say simply yanking the k&n @ this point probably won't solve anything. BUT trying to tune for it isn't going to be the right direction either (just my .02).
Where are you from Bj? Maybe a local member of the forum could be some help. A second opinion as to the way she feels could get you in the right direction quicker than trail and error on your own. I agree that it sounds as though your carbs and their set-up (+air box alteration) could very well be your issue.
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Old 07-08-2015, 12:13 PM
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Mine doesnt do second gear wheelies either... but i think i have different sprockets then most on here dont know if my PO ever changed them, never bothered to count teeth because it does come up in first but not so aggresive
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Old 07-08-2015, 12:23 PM
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I came to the SH from a ZRX, which is down on power from an R1, and the SH still felt slow to me when I first got on it. So I wouldn't judge it's speed based on a comparison to your R1. apples to oranges.

but it shouldnt be dying on you. mine is aftermarket jetted and will do roll-on power wheelies in second if i thwack the throttle open really hard. but not until i changed the rear sprocket to a 43.
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Old 07-09-2015, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Wolverine View Post
Very good advice in the above posts. Given the description I would venture to say simply yanking the k&n @ this point probably won't solve anything. BUT trying to tune for it isn't going to be the right direction either (just my .02).
Where are you from Bj? Maybe a local member of the forum could be some help. A second opinion as to the way she feels could get you in the right direction quicker than trail and error on your own. I agree that it sounds as though your carbs and their set-up (+air box alteration) could very well be your issue.
What if I closed off part of the opening on my air box would that help also how can I tell who manufactured the jets that are in there ?
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Old 07-09-2015, 02:34 AM
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Read this, it gets you very close. https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...-set-up-24769/
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Old 07-09-2015, 04:24 AM
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There is definitely something amiss here.

I own an ride bikes with much more power than the VTR but it never feels lacking except at go to jail speeds.

Ditch the K&N, disassemble your carbs and follow Hawks set up. It's a very good starting point.

Good luck, correctly set up the VTR is a hell of a fun ride that embarrasses many bikes with more power and supposedly superior brakes and suspension.

Let us know how you get on and welcome from a fellow previous R1 owner, mine was an 04 that ended up as a track bike.
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Old 07-09-2015, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by kenmoore View Post
There is definitely something amiss here.

I own an ride bikes with much more power than the VTR but it never feels lacking except at go to jail speeds.

Ditch the K&N, disassemble your carbs and follow Hawks set up. It's a very good starting point.

Good luck, correctly set up the VTR is a hell of a fun ride that embarrasses many bikes with more power and supposedly superior brakes and suspension.

Let us know how you get on and welcome from a fellow previous R1 owner, mine was an 04 that ended up as a track bike.
Thanks for the info and mine was an 07 charcoal in color I really liked that bike had to get rid of it couldn't afford payments anymore went through divorce so you know the rest lol that's been 7 years ago!!! I will ditch the filter apparently this bike doesn't like them. At least that's what I been reading on here.
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Old 07-09-2015, 06:14 AM
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Closing off part of the opening may help but you may just cause more variables in your hunt to make things right...

We still dont know where your from
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Old 07-09-2015, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Brj010885 View Post
Well I will stop now and let some of yall hopefully help me out. Thanks ahead of time for any and all help.

Here's something to compare your SH with. It's mine and I don't think it can make more power here in humid Fl. Starts at the 30 second point and again at the 2 minute...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ_iRqXhoGo
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Old 07-09-2015, 07:04 AM
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Don't make this more complicated than it needs to be. The bike will run well stock.


Toss the K&N and replace with stock paper filter
Clean the carbs
Very Important - make sure the choke cables and the fittings where the cables enter the carbs are in good working condition (if you don't do this, you may end up chasing your tail for a long time)
Make sure the jetting is stock, or slightly richer in the middle and top
Check your valve clearances and spark plugs


45 pilots, fuel screws 2 turns out, stock needles with one 0.020" shim (add a second one if you really want to tinker), 178F 180R mains, should idle at 1100 RPM or so all day long


Don't mess with shimming needles, drilling or plugging lift holes, or aftermarket jet kits until you've done the above, there's really no need, or huge benefit in straying too far if you're engine is stock.


Once you've done the above, it should run pretty darn decent.
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Old 07-09-2015, 07:08 AM
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I think its worth going to stock airbox and filter.

You have to remove and open the carbs. Just do it one carb at a time and don't break the wimpy choke elbows as you remove them.
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Old 07-09-2015, 08:05 AM
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I agree w/ Joe. Go back to stock box/filter, pull apart the carbs, report back and let us know what ya find.
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Old 07-09-2015, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by AndyMX47 View Post
45 pilots, fuel screws 2 turns out, stock needles with one 0.020" shim (add a second one if you really want to tinker), 178F 180R mains, should idle at 1100 RPM or so all day long

what's up with doing different size mains?
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Old 07-09-2015, 09:59 AM
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My bike was lean on the stock mains on the dyno, so I went up a step. Stock intake and filter, TBR mufflers.


Follow-up dyno run showed I could probably go one more size richer for max power, but it 40 degrees out, so I left it as is for summer temperatures.
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Old 07-10-2015, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by smokinjoe73 View Post
I think its worth going to stock airbox and filter.

You have to remove and open the carbs. Just do it one carb at a time and don't break the wimpy choke elbows as you remove them.
Thanks I removed the carbs and closed off my air box opening and covered part of my air filter as well also both carb sliders have the extra hole in them. I used my dremel and slotted both my fuel mix screws and replaced my TPS screws with cap head screws and turned the TPS all the way counterclockwise hope not to much.
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Old 07-10-2015, 08:52 PM
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when you did the TPS did you measure the resistence? factory wants 500ohms
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Old 07-12-2015, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by scottiemann View Post
Closing off part of the opening may help but you may just cause more variables in your hunt to make things right...

We still dont know where your from
Alright I'm back again I closed off my air box opening back down to the original size and placed a single two inch strip of plastic across the top of my air filter to reduce the air flow. I turned my TPS all the way counterclockwise, I took the carbs apart and the slides have three holes total not including the one for the needle so three lift holes total. I marked and checked my fuel screws and the front one is turned out like three and quarter turns and the rear is around two and a half. Remember it has a dynojet kit in it. So i took it for a drive and it hesitates when I crack it all the way open slight hesitation then smooths out until six grand where it flat spots or just feels like someone cuts the fuel. Any ideas ?
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Old 07-12-2015, 12:55 PM
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It seems as if you are running around in random circles here.

Why add tape to the air filter?

Why not try the mixture screws at stock turns out?

Why turn the TPS without checking it with a multimeter?

Just curious because it all seems rather random.


My suggestion would be: set the mixture screws to stock, put in a stock air filter, and return the airbox inlet hole to normal size, set the TPS to 500.

Also, did you happen to check the needles to see if they were stock (pictures would help here, if you're not sure)? What size are your pilot jets? What size are your main jets?



I realize you probably bought this bike, thinking it was awesome, and it had some name brand parts on it that work in the 4-cylinder world, along with some neat tricks to improve performance. In reality though it will be more beneficial for you to start from scratch, because quite frankly, most prople don't know what they are doing. Most people think the first thing you should do is buy a pipe and a dynojet/factory jet kit, then an ignition advancer, and boom yer done. While that works on most 4-cyl bikes, it seems to have adverse affects on the Superhawk. Most think this is because of the very large carbs on the bike.

Regardless of why, returning the bike to stock (airbox and jetting wise) buying some needle shims (#4 washers) for 20 cents and adjustable mixture screws from Jack Flash will put you WAY ahead in terms of how much time you will need to spend to tune the bike.


Thanks!
James

Last edited by thedeatons; 07-12-2015 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 07-12-2015, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by thedeatons View Post
It seems as if you are running around in random circles here.

Why add tape to the air filter?

Why not try the mixture screws at stock turns out?

Why turn the TPS without checking it with a multimeter?

Just curious because it all seems rather random.


My suggestion would be: set the mixture screws to stock, put in a stock air filter, and return the airbox inlet hole to normal size, set the TPS to 500.

Also, did you happen to check the needles to see if they were stock (pictures would help here, if you're not sure)? What size are your pilot jets? What size are your main jets?



I realize you probably bought this bike, thinking it was awesome, and it had some name brand parts on it that work in the 4-cylinder world, along with some neat tricks to improve performance. In reality though it will be more beneficial for you to start from scratch, because quite frankly, most prople don't know what they are doing. Most people think the first thing you should do is buy a pipe and a dynojet/factory jet kit, then an ignition advancer, and boom yer done. While that works on most 4-cyl bikes, it seems to have adverse affects on the Superhawk. Most think this is because of the very large carbs on the bike.

Regardless of why, returning the bike to stock (airbox and jetting wise) buying some needle shims (#4 washers) for 20 cents and adjustable mixture screws from Jack Flash will put you WAY ahead in terms of how much time you will need to spend to tune the bike.


Thanks!
James
Ok I agree I should just yank everything out of this bike and start over but at the moment I'm a little strapped for cash. That being said I'm trying to work with what I have which is probably futile oh well. I figured closing off the amount of air entering the box would simulate a stock filter and also how can I tell what size my current jets are ? And I slotted the fuel screws with my dremel but my question is do they make fuel screws that I can turn with my fingers ?
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Old 07-12-2015, 02:52 PM
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Jack Flash makes adjustable fuel screws for like $35 per pair. PM him

I ordered an Emgo Air Filter 12-91480 from PeakMoto Powersports on Amazon for pretty cheap. They are generally regarded as being manufactured in the same factory as the OEM Honda air filters. Don't forget to replace the two little foam filters in the airbox also.

I'm sure if ya asked nice someone on the forum might have some stock pilot/main jets they can let ya have cheap.

If ya wanna know your jet sizes: remove the bowl from the bottom of each carb, then unscrew the large brass main jet, and the small brass pilot jet. They should have engravings on them

Also read through some of the threads about carb springs and how to tell which springs you have, dynojet or stock.

James

Last edited by thedeatons; 07-12-2015 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 07-12-2015, 06:40 PM
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You may need to read and re-read "Hawks" carb set up post, part of which I will paste here:

"So here we go. The first step is to install a set of #48 pilot jets (per Dan Kyle & HRC). You will here people say they have tried this and it didn't work. The reason for this is that they have done it along with installing a jet kit. As I stated earlier, aftermarket kits install larger mains and different needles. When you change both, you end up too rich with a stock motor. It's a one or the other with this bike. By upping the pilots you cure the low end leanness and also add a little to the top end as the pilot circuit doesn't turn off, so larger mains are not required.

Then you need to shim up the needles. While they have a very good profile, they are a little too long for performance. The question here is how much do you shim them. Around .040" is a good starting point but will need to be tuned to each bike. Also there is more to it than just shimming both needles .040". One of the set up tips from HRC is to use one more shim on the rear needle than you use on the front (this tip might be helpful to try on bikes with an aftermarket kit also). So what I do when setting up a set of carbs is remove the stock thin washer that is under the front needle and leave it in place on the rear. With this method you actually end up with the front needle approx. .030" higher than stock and the rear .040" higher than stock which seems to work well.

So You can stop at this point, put it all back together and start with the pilot screw set at 2 1\4 turns in the front and 2 1\2 turns rear as a start and the bike will work pretty good but it can be better.

This is where the HRC slide mod comes into play. What is this "secret" mod? Well it really is quite simple. We'll start with this hijacked pick once again



The 2 holes are called lift holes. It's where the slide gets the pressure differential signal which causes the slide to open. That is why DynoJet has you drill an extra hole, to cause the slide to open sooner, but that is the wrong way to go IMHO.

Because of the different length velocity stacks what is really going on with the bike is the front cylinder slide opens too quickly causing the front cylinder to go rich in the low to mid-range. FactoryPro even recommended running an emulsion tube from the rear in the front to help cure this problem.

Now the HRC cure for this is to supply a slide with one lift hole. This will lean out the low & mid while not effecting the upper mid-range and top end. So the last step would be to use some epoxy and seal one of the lift holes in the front slide.

This will give you a very good baseline set up. Yes some tuning will be required but all it involves is adjusting the washer stack ( you might need to raise or lower the needles a small amount) and set the pilot jets per the service manual.'

Love him or hate him, Hawk has shared what has worked in his experience and it worked for me.
It should not cost you that much money.
Get a stock box and filter, some 48 pilots, $2 of washers, a couple screws, epoxy up a hole (or two in your case) and wha_laa!
Keep asking, as long as you seem to be listening, we will continue to reply. A couple months ago, I didn't know a slide from a skid mark.
I agree that "Hawk's setup" part of which is above in red, is a helpful narrative, especially if you have some basic experience with these carbs already. What may help those just learning would be step by step instructions with pics and diagrams. Or maybe a You tube video. But this is not my material, so I am reluctant to create such a revised set up guide.

Last edited by Hangfly; 07-12-2015 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 07-12-2015, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Hangfly View Post
You may need to read and re-read "Hawks" carb set up post, part of which I will paste here:

"So here we go. The first step is to install a set of #48 pilot jets (per Dan Kyle & HRC). You will here people say they have tried this and it didn't work. The reason for this is that they have done it along with installing a jet kit. As I stated earlier, aftermarket kits install larger mains and different needles. When you change both, you end up too rich with a stock motor. It's a one or the other with this bike. By upping the pilots you cure the low end leanness and also add a little to the top end as the pilot circuit doesn't turn off, so larger mains are not required.

Then you need to shim up the needles. While they have a very good profile, they are a little too long for performance. The question here is how much do you shim them. Around .040" is a good starting point but will need to be tuned to each bike. Also there is more to it than just shimming both needles .040". One of the set up tips from HRC is to use one more shim on the rear needle than you use on the front (this tip might be helpful to try on bikes with an aftermarket kit also). So what I do when setting up a set of carbs is remove the stock thin washer that is under the front needle and leave it in place on the rear. With this method you actually end up with the front needle approx. .030" higher than stock and the rear .040" higher than stock which seems to work well.

So You can stop at this point, put it all back together and start with the pilot screw set at 2 1\4 turns in the front and 2 1\2 turns rear as a start and the bike will work pretty good but it can be better.

This is where the HRC slide mod comes into play. What is this "secret" mod? Well it really is quite simple. We'll start with this hijacked pick once again



The 2 holes are called lift holes. It's where the slide gets the pressure differential signal which causes the slide to open. That is why DynoJet has you drill an extra hole, to cause the slide to open sooner, but that is the wrong way to go IMHO.

Because of the different length velocity stacks what is really going on with the bike is the front cylinder slide opens too quickly causing the front cylinder to go rich in the low to mid-range. FactoryPro even recommended running an emulsion tube from the rear in the front to help cure this problem.

Now the HRC cure for this is to supply a slide with one lift hole. This will lean out the low & mid while not effecting the upper mid-range and top end. So the last step would be to use some epoxy and seal one of the lift holes in the front slide.

This will give you a very good baseline set up. Yes some tuning will be required but all it involves is adjusting the washer stack ( you might need to raise or lower the needles a small amount) and set the pilot jets per the service manual.'

Love him or hate him, Hawk has shared what has worked in his experience and it worked for me.
It should not cost you that much money.
Get a stock box and filter, some 48 pilots, $2 of washers, a couple screws, epoxy up a hole (or two in your case) and wha_laa!
Keep asking, as long as you seem to be listening, we will continue to reply. A couple months ago, I didn't know a slide from a skid mark.
I agree that "Hawk's setup" part of which is above in red, is a helpful narrative, especially if you have some basic experience with these carbs already. What may help those just learning would be step by step instructions with pics and diagrams. Or maybe a You tube video. But this is not my material, so I am reluctant to create such a revised set up guide.
Thank you again for the help I'm definitely listening to yalls input on this matter and will be doing the changes that Hawk recommends but in the mean time I'm attempting to get some things changed on the bike like adjustable fuel screws speaking of which I googled Jackflash and couldn't figure out who or what that was.
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Old 07-12-2015, 11:16 PM
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This is Jack Flash. https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...l-screw-31449/

Hawks setup is very good. I would be trying that first.
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Old 07-13-2015, 10:20 AM
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Sorry to contradict, but Hawk's set-up includes the Dr. Honda aftermarket velocity stacks, and resulted with hesitation in my bike when whacking the throttle wide open - momentary, but hesitation nonetheless, and the dyno showed me where it came from - going lean due to the plugged lift hole in the slides. I do not have aftermarket velocity stacks.


Kepp it simple, get it to stock settings, then tune for your elevation and climate - if you need to.


Stock (or emgo) paper air filter, stock needles, stock pilots (45 pilots) stock or one step richer mains, AND properly operating enricheners (choke cables).


Wild guesses at prices:


Air Filter = $30
Honda Needles = $50
45 Pilots = $10
175/178/180/182 Mains = $20 (this way you have 6 different set-ups you can use)
Choke fittings if needed = $20 from mark on VTR1000 board
Air Box lid off of ebay? (Or lots of duct tape)


Sucks, but probably where you should start. I got my jets from Rocky Mountain ATV/MC, bought multiple sizes of each as above to try different settings.


Flame on.
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Old 07-13-2015, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by AndyMX47 View Post
Sorry to contradict, but Hawk's set-up includes the Dr. Honda aftermarket velocity stacks, and resulted with hesitation in my bike when whacking the throttle wide open - momentary, but hesitation


Flame on.
No Hawks setup is not for alloy stacks. They are mentioned but the setup is around a stock bike. Yes he mentions what to do if you do have alloy stacks but thats not the base setup.

Sounds like you blocked both front and back with stock stacks which would make it lean.

Also remember its a base setup, mine is leaner than it due to where I am in the world.
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Old 07-13-2015, 01:19 PM
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No, I only blocked the 1 front hole. The configurations I tried were stock in both slides, 1 hole blocked in front slide, and lift hole in both.


The 1 blocked hole gave MY BIKE hesitation, which showed up as brief momentary lean condition on the dyno, going close to 16:1 af for a split second when the throttle was whacked wide open.


Your results may vary - as evidently mine did - which is why I tell people to start with stock and take it from there.
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Old 07-13-2015, 01:59 PM
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I think the OP says he has 3 slide holes . Not counting the needle hole.
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