posted this on Sport Rider mag site and their forum
10-29-2011, 03:57 PM
#1
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posted this on Sport Rider mag site and their forum
Dec.2011 SR,p84:wide tires on narrow rims-again.
with all due respect, I believe your stance on this topic obviously lacks the particular experience with dunlop tires to make this judgement accurately, patronizes manufacturers, speaks down to those who are not afraid to try something new to learn and evolve, is generally too CYA, and is IMHO incorrect.
I agree that mounting a 190 tire on a 5.5" rim is generally a poor match, the key word being "generally". I have used a BTO-16(50) and a Power Pure (55)and both were steep sided, put too much stress on the front tire in terms of accelerated wear and crowning, manifested larger chicken strips on the rear than on the front, and had reduced stability at lean. I was ready to come to a conclusion similar to yours until a friend brought me a 190x50 Q2 to mount on his CBR6004FI(5.5"). As soon as I looked at the arc or profile of the tire, i thought it was unique, but of course you can't be sure until it's mounted on the rim. Once mounted, it looked like a good match in terms of the rounded profile being similar to the 180s as in no steep sides, just a nice gentle and constant arc to the edges of the tire. The first ride proved that the Dunlop 190 on a 5.5" rim is indeed a good match, no, it's better than a good match, it's a great match. Geometry is not an issue as the height is close enough to the 180x55 and after a thousand plus miles of twisties, the owner says this is the best tire he's ever experienced on his bike. Riding behind him only served to confirm his claim.
Meanwhile, I was nearing the end of a failed experiment(of 4000 miles) with a 190x55 Power Pure on a 5.5" rim. Definitely not recommended. Having mounted my friend's Q2 190 and witnessed the handling improvements thereof, it was a no-brainer for me. I chose the 190x55 because my bike was geared low and increases in rear height had worked well other than the above mentioned side-effects. I now have about 800 miles on the Q2 190x55 on a 5.5" rim and this is the unequivocally the best tire I've ever had on my bike which I've ridden for nearly 35,000 miles since purchase.
Members of your staff should try the 190/5.5"/Dunlop combinations so that you can more accurately evaluate general but untimely assumptions like, "higher steering effort,slightly slower steering and reduced stability",and relative to the 50,"it's lower profile, significantly exaggerates the disadvantages that arise from using the wider tire on a 5.5" rim,......".
I have noticed this CYA, patronize the manufacturers, talking down to riders in the past and can understand to some degree your modus operandi, but i would suggest that you can deliver more accurate information in a discreet way that will still speak to the truth while not upsetting the manufacturers.
with all due respect, I believe your stance on this topic obviously lacks the particular experience with dunlop tires to make this judgement accurately, patronizes manufacturers, speaks down to those who are not afraid to try something new to learn and evolve, is generally too CYA, and is IMHO incorrect.
I agree that mounting a 190 tire on a 5.5" rim is generally a poor match, the key word being "generally". I have used a BTO-16(50) and a Power Pure (55)and both were steep sided, put too much stress on the front tire in terms of accelerated wear and crowning, manifested larger chicken strips on the rear than on the front, and had reduced stability at lean. I was ready to come to a conclusion similar to yours until a friend brought me a 190x50 Q2 to mount on his CBR6004FI(5.5"). As soon as I looked at the arc or profile of the tire, i thought it was unique, but of course you can't be sure until it's mounted on the rim. Once mounted, it looked like a good match in terms of the rounded profile being similar to the 180s as in no steep sides, just a nice gentle and constant arc to the edges of the tire. The first ride proved that the Dunlop 190 on a 5.5" rim is indeed a good match, no, it's better than a good match, it's a great match. Geometry is not an issue as the height is close enough to the 180x55 and after a thousand plus miles of twisties, the owner says this is the best tire he's ever experienced on his bike. Riding behind him only served to confirm his claim.
Meanwhile, I was nearing the end of a failed experiment(of 4000 miles) with a 190x55 Power Pure on a 5.5" rim. Definitely not recommended. Having mounted my friend's Q2 190 and witnessed the handling improvements thereof, it was a no-brainer for me. I chose the 190x55 because my bike was geared low and increases in rear height had worked well other than the above mentioned side-effects. I now have about 800 miles on the Q2 190x55 on a 5.5" rim and this is the unequivocally the best tire I've ever had on my bike which I've ridden for nearly 35,000 miles since purchase.
Members of your staff should try the 190/5.5"/Dunlop combinations so that you can more accurately evaluate general but untimely assumptions like, "higher steering effort,slightly slower steering and reduced stability",and relative to the 50,"it's lower profile, significantly exaggerates the disadvantages that arise from using the wider tire on a 5.5" rim,......".
I have noticed this CYA, patronize the manufacturers, talking down to riders in the past and can understand to some degree your modus operandi, but i would suggest that you can deliver more accurate information in a discreet way that will still speak to the truth while not upsetting the manufacturers.
10-29-2011, 06:36 PM
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I think this opinion cannot be fully informed without a direct comparison with the 180 size of the same tire. It might be even better. You've tried two others in 190 with poor results, your ratio and experience standing on their own (without the 180 comparo) actually reinforces SR's recommendation.
10-29-2011, 07:51 PM
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I think this opinion cannot be fully informed without a direct comparison with the 180 size of the same tire. It might be even better. You've tried two others in 190 with poor results, your ratio and experience standing on their own (without the 180 comparo) actually reinforces SR's recommendation.
I don't know if you read the SR comments, but it appears to me that they implied that this issue had been covered thoroughly before and were reluctantly repeating what they had already well covered many times("wide tires on narrow rim-again") and that they were lecturing on past information("the 190/50, with its lower profile, significantly exaggeratesthe disadvantages that arise form using the wider tire on a 5.5" rim, and we have often stated previouslythat this is a bad combination"). This statement may apply to all other 190s, but definitely not to the Q2. Anyone who puts this tire on a 5.5" rim will know within relatively few miles that their statements are bullshit.
Don't believe me, try it yourself and you will know for yourself that Q2 190s on 5.5" rock.
Last edited by nath981; 10-29-2011 at 07:53 PM.
10-29-2011, 08:13 PM
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I believe you. Just taking the position that if it's a case where one tire in 190 works well then the advice to not run 190's on 5.5's is valid. After all, you tried it with two others and didn't like it. Could be that Dunlop designed their 190 to work better on a 190? I dunno', just disscusing. Thanks for sharing this. I'll probably stick with 180's but it's good to know the Q2 yeilds positive results and I wouldn't know that if it werent' for higher mile riders like you.
10-29-2011, 10:05 PM
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I believe you. Just taking the position that if it's a case where one tire in 190 works well then the advice to not run 190's on 5.5's is valid. After all, you tried it with two others and didn't like it. Could be that Dunlop designed their 190 to work better on a 190? I dunno', just disscusing. Thanks for sharing this. I'll probably stick with 180's but it's good to know the Q2 yeilds positive results and I wouldn't know that if it werent' for higher mile riders like you.
that's exactly the point, the dunlops are diff in that respect and you can see that they state this preference on the below thread with relation to the 211 racing tires, but the same applies to the Q2s. The profile/arc is the same and this is a strict departure from other manufacturers' 190s i've run.
Dunlop Racing » D211GP
I guess I get a little pissed when a professional publication like Sport Rider, representing our sport, tries to bullshit people. For example, a few months back, they did an article on counter steering where they said that this is a good idea to find a parking lot to practice this skill. I questioned the wisdom of this and cited the vid below. Of course they never responded.
2010 10 24
In another article regarding air pressure, they ended up patronizing the manufacturers by defending recommendations of 36f 42r, no matter what tire you're running. More bullshit that we pay to have smeared on us by the so-called expert representatives of Sport Rider. Of course the tire manufactures don't want to conflict with the bike manufacturers because they want them to put their tires on their bikes and other similar motives. If you read the michelin specs in the chart on the below link, you'll see that 33psi cold meets all their weight/speed criteria. That means if you weigh 200lbs and you have a passenger and are traveling 100mph all freakin day in 100 degree weather, 33psi front and rear cold is plenty safe. Yet on the tire itself it's 36 and 42, to appease the bike manufacturers of course, who have those specs in their manuals and on the bike. Our representative, SR mag, has to take their CYA stance to make their advertisers who provide bikes, money, parties, etc., happy.
190/55 Mich Pure's on 5.5in Wheel - Page 2 : Suzuki GSX-R Motorcycle Forums: Gixxer.com
I understand the underlying factors that influence these decisions, but give a little credit to their subscribers who pay to read what is touted as objective information representing the riding community, that is, a measure of accountability of sorts. How about a little honesty here. It's like their pretending to be one of us while their really in bed with the companies whose products they're supposed to be evaluating on our behalf. Kind of like our gov't huh? I say, if your going to skew the results, call the publication what it is, an advertisement, and send it to us for nothing.
Sorry for the rant, but it's insulting to all motorcyclists to feed us **** and then expect us to pay for it. I love the SH, this forum, riding motorcycles, mags, races, etc., but if we can't call a spade a spade, we may as well just shut off our brains and just rely on remembering what they feed us and join them in spreading **** on our friends.
10-29-2011, 10:13 PM
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The guy in the video IS countersteering. Countersteering merely initiates a turn but the front wheel will always turn the same way as the turn regardless of the speed (unless you're doing an opposite lock throttle oversteer thing as in flattracking, speedway or, on rare occasion, roadracing).
Practicing countersteering in a parking lot IS a good idea, although I figured out countersteering when I was about 7 years old riding a bicycle. Push right to go right and push left to go left. I have never had to think about it--it just happens naturally.
As far as the 190 versus 180 issue, normally I stick with a 180 for the 5.5" rim on our Super Hawks, but a little searching around on the internet shows that it is not uncommon or bad practice to use certain 190 Dunlops on 5.5" wheels.
Practicing countersteering in a parking lot IS a good idea, although I figured out countersteering when I was about 7 years old riding a bicycle. Push right to go right and push left to go left. I have never had to think about it--it just happens naturally.
As far as the 190 versus 180 issue, normally I stick with a 180 for the 5.5" rim on our Super Hawks, but a little searching around on the internet shows that it is not uncommon or bad practice to use certain 190 Dunlops on 5.5" wheels.
Last edited by killer5280; 10-29-2011 at 10:29 PM.
10-29-2011, 11:33 PM
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Who is expecting you to pay? And if you don’t like it, don’t buy it.
Really, people still buy bike magazines??
Works no different than internet forums, don’t want to read the content, don’t click the link.
If you click the link (buy the magazine) you really have no leg to stand on to bitch.. it was a choice, you made it..
10-30-2011, 08:01 AM
#8
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Who is expecting you to pay? And if you don’t like it, don’t buy it.
Really, people still buy bike magazines??
Works no different than internet forums, don’t want to read the content, don’t click the link.
If you click the link (buy the magazine) you really have no leg to stand on to bitch.. it was a choice, you made it..
Newspapers, mags, and other media, with the backdrop of free speech, once provided a venue where the people could learn and evaluate the truth, at least other sides, not just what someone with an agenda wanted you to believe. Reporters once acted on behalf of the people by providing them with the truth, the other side of the story if you will, and thereby provided an important measure of accountability for those in the spotlight. It helped keep things a little more real. I still believe that there are those kind of reporters out there, but they seem to be fast disappearing.
I believe that mag writers who portray themselves as "one of us" motorcyclists are increasingly concerned with placating manufacturers and less concerned with objective reporting. This is not to say that they are all corrupted, but it seems to be a more common emerging trend.
I'm not expecting you to understand what i'm saying, because I am a bit of an idealist, maybe a romantic, in a way. It's like once you've experienced something really good in your life, that becomes your standard, and over time, if you discover that you can no longer find it anymore, it's hard to accept less. This is especially true if you are passionate about something like many of us are about bikes, riding, racing, etc.
10-30-2011, 10:01 AM
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Insert just about any subject and your statement fits.
Very well stated!
Very well stated!
i know you're right. It's simple. If I don't like it, i don't have to order it. I guess it's another adverse side effect of living too long in a world that seems diametrically opposed to what was prevalent for me and how my values have evolved over time.
Newspapers, mags, and other media, with the backdrop of free speech, once provided a venue where the people could learn and evaluate the truth, at least other sides, not just what someone with an agenda wanted you to believe. Reporters once acted on behalf of the people by providing them with the truth, the other side of the story if you will, and thereby provided an important measure of accountability for those in the spotlight. It helped keep things a little more real. I still believe that there are those kind of reporters out there, but they seem to be fast disappearing.
I believe that mag writers who portray themselves as "one of us" motorcyclists are increasingly concerned with placating manufacturers and less concerned with objective reporting. This is not to say that they are all corrupted, but it seems to be a more common emerging trend.
I'm not expecting you to understand what i'm saying, because I am a bit of an idealist, maybe a romantic, in a way. It's like once you've experienced something really good in your life, that becomes your standard, and over time, if you discover that you can no longer find it anymore, it's hard to accept less. This is especially true if you are passionate about something like many of us are about bikes, riding, racing, etc.
Newspapers, mags, and other media, with the backdrop of free speech, once provided a venue where the people could learn and evaluate the truth, at least other sides, not just what someone with an agenda wanted you to believe. Reporters once acted on behalf of the people by providing them with the truth, the other side of the story if you will, and thereby provided an important measure of accountability for those in the spotlight. It helped keep things a little more real. I still believe that there are those kind of reporters out there, but they seem to be fast disappearing.
I believe that mag writers who portray themselves as "one of us" motorcyclists are increasingly concerned with placating manufacturers and less concerned with objective reporting. This is not to say that they are all corrupted, but it seems to be a more common emerging trend.
I'm not expecting you to understand what i'm saying, because I am a bit of an idealist, maybe a romantic, in a way. It's like once you've experienced something really good in your life, that becomes your standard, and over time, if you discover that you can no longer find it anymore, it's hard to accept less. This is especially true if you are passionate about something like many of us are about bikes, riding, racing, etc.
10-30-2011, 10:10 AM
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The guy in the video IS countersteering. Countersteering merely initiates a turn but the front wheel will always turn the same way as the turn regardless of the speed (unless you're doing an opposite lock throttle oversteer thing as in flattracking, speedway or, on rare occasion, roadracing).
Practicing countersteering in a parking lot IS a good idea, although I figured out countersteering when I was about 7 years old riding a bicycle. Push right to go right and push left to go left. I have never had to think about it--it just happens naturally.
As far as the 190 versus 180 issue, normally I stick with a 180 for the 5.5" rim on our Super Hawks, but a little searching around on the internet shows that it is not uncommon or bad practice to use certain 190 Dunlops on 5.5" wheels.
Practicing countersteering in a parking lot IS a good idea, although I figured out countersteering when I was about 7 years old riding a bicycle. Push right to go right and push left to go left. I have never had to think about it--it just happens naturally.
As far as the 190 versus 180 issue, normally I stick with a 180 for the 5.5" rim on our Super Hawks, but a little searching around on the internet shows that it is not uncommon or bad practice to use certain 190 Dunlops on 5.5" wheels.
Countersteering 101 v1.1 - YouTube!
it's no wonder i have difficulty trying to do tight turns at slow speeds, esp on the superhawk as compared with the lighter XR. I'm not initiating the turn with a quick countersteer, just leaning in and turning the wheel in the direction of the turn to control the lean. Thanks for pointing that out but i would have had difficulty believing it because I only used counter steering after speed builds up. Wow! now i got to practice that little gem of knowledge. Hopefully, I'll be whippin around in half the distance in no time since i now understand what's happening.
I agree that the 190 vs 180 on a 5.5" rim generally not a good match, but the Q2 is the exception. In the case of the Q2, the 190 in not just a good match, it's a great match. I only have about 700 miles on the tires and unless i learn something to the contrary as time goes on, I couldn't ask for a better tire for the twisties. I'm anxious for others who like to lean here to try this tire/rim combo for their opinions. I imagine that Tweety and others with 6" wheels would experience the similar results with the 200 dunlop.
Last edited by nath981; 10-30-2011 at 10:17 AM.
10-30-2011, 10:32 AM
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your are right and i am wrong on this countersteering. I watched that gymkhana video many times and never saw what i can see plainly in the video below. I totally get it now. thanks much.
Countersteering 101 v1.1 - YouTube!
it's no wonder i have difficulty trying to do tight turns at slow speeds, esp on the superhawk as compared with the lighter XR. I'm not initiating the turn with a quick countersteer, just leaning in and turning the wheel in the direction of the turn to control the lean. Thanks for pointing that out but i would have had difficulty believing it because I only used counter steering after speed builds up. Wow! now i got to practice that little gem of knowledge. Hopefully, I'll be whippin around in half the distance in no time since i now understand what's happening.
I agree that the 190 vs 180 on a 5.5" rim generally not a good match, but the Q2 is the exception. In the case of the Q2, the 190 in not just a good match, it's a great match. I only have about 700 miles on the tires and unless i learn something to the contrary as time goes on, I couldn't ask for a better tire for the twisties. I'm anxious for others who like to lean here to try this tire/rim combo for their opinions. I imagine that Tweety and others with 6" wheels would experience the similar results with the 200 dunlop.
Countersteering 101 v1.1 - YouTube!
it's no wonder i have difficulty trying to do tight turns at slow speeds, esp on the superhawk as compared with the lighter XR. I'm not initiating the turn with a quick countersteer, just leaning in and turning the wheel in the direction of the turn to control the lean. Thanks for pointing that out but i would have had difficulty believing it because I only used counter steering after speed builds up. Wow! now i got to practice that little gem of knowledge. Hopefully, I'll be whippin around in half the distance in no time since i now understand what's happening.
I agree that the 190 vs 180 on a 5.5" rim generally not a good match, but the Q2 is the exception. In the case of the Q2, the 190 in not just a good match, it's a great match. I only have about 700 miles on the tires and unless i learn something to the contrary as time goes on, I couldn't ask for a better tire for the twisties. I'm anxious for others who like to lean here to try this tire/rim combo for their opinions. I imagine that Tweety and others with 6" wheels would experience the similar results with the 200 dunlop.
10-30-2011, 10:46 AM
#12
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I'm going out to practice Gymkhana turning, haha, thanks.
10-30-2011, 11:16 AM
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I understand what you are saying, but the thing is the media and manufacturers have an implied if not actual responsibility for what they say and do. They can do whatever they want in their private lives, but not in public. The problem is the standard "bigger is better" thought process and if they said you could do a 190 on a 5.5 as opposed to the recommended 180 then it opens some people's thought that if they say that then going just a bit wider to a 200 should work. It's only a little bit more. Then there are, as you experienced, the tires that don't work that way. Maybe all Dunlops don't work the same. So they set generalities that will work across the board. Same's true with tire pressure. If they say X and you do Y then you're going against their judgement and that would stand up in court for those who won't take responsibility. Those who will can and do try different settings. Heck flat trackers run their tires backward when they flop the hub to run the new sharp edge side that was on the right hand (outside) of the bike. That at 90-130 mph with the tire spinning up.
Some clown would stick a 200 on a 5.5 rim the shoot out the door throttle pegged into the first turn they find without any scuffing or warming of the tread, then claim it was the tire's fault if they crash... go figure.
You don't have the problem, but there are also those guys who want fat tires on smaller bikes. We saw it all the time with 125 riders sticking 5.10 (130) knobbies on them. The bikes are so bogged down it's pathetic. The first thing a knowledgeable rider would do is toss the 5.10 and stick a 110 tire on it. The narrower tire is both lighter and allows the bike to break it loose to keep the engine in the good power. Street riders tend to want to stick huge tires on small bikes in spite of what works. Of course that's not an issue with a 190 on a VTR, I'm just blathering on a bit.
I have similar issues, but front rims and tires. I resist doing radials, but I'm not sure I would have to, by running bias 110/70-17s on my 2.50" rim which is pushing the issue with their manufacturer recommendation of using a 3.00 rim. I've learned the bias tires work fine for me, but I'd like to go to a 120. I do think that would be a bit too much for the 2.50 so I don't believe I will do that. I also resist doing a radial because I'm not sure if the carcass will flex in the same way as the bias tire and work decently. At this point I'm going to try to fit a wider rim to run a 120 on the front.
I don't have any issues with the rear because I don't run a wider tire on any of the bikes I've had, because of three things. One is cost versus benefit. Two is slowing of the handling and extra power consumed due to width increasing force to turn in and heavier weight. Three is due to pinching in of the tread into too round a pattern, causing more wear in the center for less tire life. Are all of these real issues? Maybe not so much, but I don't have the money to find I'm wrong. Thus I tend to run the recommended size for the bike.
Some clown would stick a 200 on a 5.5 rim the shoot out the door throttle pegged into the first turn they find without any scuffing or warming of the tread, then claim it was the tire's fault if they crash... go figure.
You don't have the problem, but there are also those guys who want fat tires on smaller bikes. We saw it all the time with 125 riders sticking 5.10 (130) knobbies on them. The bikes are so bogged down it's pathetic. The first thing a knowledgeable rider would do is toss the 5.10 and stick a 110 tire on it. The narrower tire is both lighter and allows the bike to break it loose to keep the engine in the good power. Street riders tend to want to stick huge tires on small bikes in spite of what works. Of course that's not an issue with a 190 on a VTR, I'm just blathering on a bit.
I have similar issues, but front rims and tires. I resist doing radials, but I'm not sure I would have to, by running bias 110/70-17s on my 2.50" rim which is pushing the issue with their manufacturer recommendation of using a 3.00 rim. I've learned the bias tires work fine for me, but I'd like to go to a 120. I do think that would be a bit too much for the 2.50 so I don't believe I will do that. I also resist doing a radial because I'm not sure if the carcass will flex in the same way as the bias tire and work decently. At this point I'm going to try to fit a wider rim to run a 120 on the front.
I don't have any issues with the rear because I don't run a wider tire on any of the bikes I've had, because of three things. One is cost versus benefit. Two is slowing of the handling and extra power consumed due to width increasing force to turn in and heavier weight. Three is due to pinching in of the tread into too round a pattern, causing more wear in the center for less tire life. Are all of these real issues? Maybe not so much, but I don't have the money to find I'm wrong. Thus I tend to run the recommended size for the bike.
11-03-2011, 01:16 PM
#14
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190x55 on a 5.5" rim...the anomaly is Dunlop - Sport Bike Forums at Sport Rider Magazine
I guess kento had enough! haha
that's ok, I'm going out and practice my gymkhana counter steering.
I guess kento had enough! haha
that's ok, I'm going out and practice my gymkhana counter steering.
Last edited by nath981; 11-03-2011 at 01:19 PM.
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