PICS OF MY PLUGS ! ! !
03-27-2005, 10:42 AM
#1
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PICS OF MY PLUGS ! ! !
ok, did all the cool mods:shim,tps,pair, etc. got MIG pipes, stock air filter... idles fine... but gurgles if i hit the throttle HARD to rev it while warming up. itll gurgle and tremble from 1.2k to 2k RPMs , then itll rip up to higher rpm's after about 1 second. again, got the bike 4 weeks ago, road it once. thats it. also, if i pull the choke out all the way, then rev it, its kinda ok but then backfires and spits at 4k or so .
heres two pics of the plugs, looks like its lean from the ash on the top electrode ("L" shaped thingey) . what you think?
now, when your done, heres a link to a site that shows plug pics. compare. thanks again guys...
http://www.rmh-d.com/service/spark_plugs.php
heres two pics of the plugs, looks like its lean from the ash on the top electrode ("L" shaped thingey) . what you think?
now, when your done, heres a link to a site that shows plug pics. compare. thanks again guys...
http://www.rmh-d.com/service/spark_plugs.php
03-27-2005, 11:12 AM
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Re: PICS OF MY PLUGS ! ! !
yeah, your prolly right, though it still runs better with the choke 1/2 out... tellin me the bikes too lean i would think.logic would tell me, it wouldnt gurgle if it had gas comin to it... but maybe im wrong. also, the problem doesnt get worse as i drive it more, it gets SLIGHTLY better, which is also a tell tale sign of lean condition. i dunno. i have no idea where the fuel mixture screws are to even adjust it! i mean, with my luck ide have to pull out the carbs. 
03-27-2005, 05:07 PM
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Re: PICS OF MY PLUGS ! ! !
does ANYONE know the process of making a bike from lean to rich? i saw the PILOT SCREW ADJUSTMENT in the service manual, with that long screwdriver.... and maybe i could to that like 2 3/4 turns... i dunno. i just hope its not too painfull. do i ned to pull the carbs? change jets?
03-27-2005, 06:03 PM
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Re: PICS OF MY PLUGS ! ! !
Very good question friend. Page 4 * 5 of Haynes service and repair manual indicates as follows:
The pilot screws can be adjusted, but the use of an exhaust gas analyser and an auxiliary tachometer capable of accurately displaying changes of 50 rpm is the only certain way to adjust the idle fule/air mixture and be sure the machine doest exceed the emissions regulations.
The pilot scres are set to their correct position by the manufacdturer and should not be adjusted or removed unless it is necessary to do so during a carburettor overhaul. If the screws are to be removed, recored the pilot screw's current seting by turning the screw in until it seats lightly, counting the number of turns necessary to achieve this, then fully unscrew it. On stallation, the screw is simply backed out the number of turns you've recorded.
Unquote!
So in you case record the number of turns then deviate from it ever so slightly and see if that makes it better or worse. If it doesn't make it better you can go back to original settings or go in the other direction a bit and see what happens. You are opening a can of worms that could very well end up turning into a carburettor overhaul.
The pilot screws can be adjusted, but the use of an exhaust gas analyser and an auxiliary tachometer capable of accurately displaying changes of 50 rpm is the only certain way to adjust the idle fule/air mixture and be sure the machine doest exceed the emissions regulations.
The pilot scres are set to their correct position by the manufacdturer and should not be adjusted or removed unless it is necessary to do so during a carburettor overhaul. If the screws are to be removed, recored the pilot screw's current seting by turning the screw in until it seats lightly, counting the number of turns necessary to achieve this, then fully unscrew it. On stallation, the screw is simply backed out the number of turns you've recorded.
Unquote!
So in you case record the number of turns then deviate from it ever so slightly and see if that makes it better or worse. If it doesn't make it better you can go back to original settings or go in the other direction a bit and see what happens. You are opening a can of worms that could very well end up turning into a carburettor overhaul.
03-27-2005, 06:09 PM
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Re: PICS OF MY PLUGS ! ! !
yeah,i have that in my real honda service manual, with the tach and all, but this ma help. i mean or i can go into the carbs and pull out the pilot jet and buy a bigger one? i gotta do what i gotta do. 
03-27-2005, 06:17 PM
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Re: PICS OF MY PLUGS ! ! !
Before I messed with that I'd get the carbs/mixture perfect.
03-28-2005, 02:53 PM
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Re: PICS OF MY PLUGS ! ! !
thats the thing, i wanna know how to get the fuel mixture screws perfect. does that entail takin the carbs off everytime i need to adjust the mixture screws 1/4 turn to perfect it? 
> is there a default setting of how many turns out or in? which way makes it lean and which way with the screw makes it rich? ok ok, im questioned out.
> is there a default setting of how many turns out or in? which way makes it lean and which way with the screw makes it rich? ok ok, im questioned out.
03-28-2005, 03:01 PM
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Re: PICS OF MY PLUGS ! ! !
clevland, im tellin yah man, when you pull the choke out and open the throttle you are actually causing a LEAN condition not a richer condition. trust me, this is the way these carbs work!!!
03-28-2005, 03:18 PM
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Re: PICS OF MY PLUGS ! ! !
im not sayin your wrong... its just that in the service manual it calls it a fuel enricher... which sounds like it makes it rich... and aids in initial starting ... but i dunno... regardless, i need to get to the mix screws to make a/f ratio nice... do i need to remove carbs to do it? like every time i need to turn them?
03-28-2005, 04:38 PM
#11
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Re: PICS OF MY PLUGS ! ! !
I'll chime in with what I know as I had the carbs off last week. The A/F mixture screws are on the bottom of the carbs an are not easy to access when installed on the bike. The head of the screw is shaped like the letter D and as such needs a special tool to adjust.
I remember someone telling me this a longtime back a they slotted the D shaped heads with a dremel tool. This allows you to adjust the A/F mixture screws while the carbs are on the bike with a cheaper version of the necessary tool. Like this one for example...http://www.cycleshopusa.com/products.asp?nm=1678
Hope this helps
I remember someone telling me this a longtime back a they slotted the D shaped heads with a dremel tool. This allows you to adjust the A/F mixture screws while the carbs are on the bike with a cheaper version of the necessary tool. Like this one for example...http://www.cycleshopusa.com/products.asp?nm=1678
Hope this helps
03-28-2005, 05:53 PM
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I can clarify a few points:
The plugs look OK to me too. It's obvious that they're brand new but the color looks OK for a modern engine. Did you do a plug cut? If so, at what speed.
The pilot screws only affect the idle circuit. CV carbs divide the work into three basic parts:
The idle circuit: which provides fueling until the slide starts to rise, basically idle to just above idle
The midrange circuit: controlled by the needle and transitioning off idle to a point where the slide is open, and
The main circuit, controlled by the main jet.
There are transitions among these three circuits but the pilot screws won't have a measurable effect on drivability or the mixture off idle.
The circuits build on each other but the idle circuit really has no effect on the main circuit.
If your bike is lean or rich on idle, you'll adjust the idle screws or (worst case) replace the idle jets.
If your bike is lean or rich in the midrange, the shape or position of the needle is to blame. At full on your mixture is modified by changing the main jet. The test to adjust idle mixture is called an idle drop test and involves finding the fastest idle (mixture) and richening from there about a quarter of a turn.
It requires a good sensitive tach and can't be done with the bike tach. And I don't know anyone who can adjust the pilot screws (modified or not) without the grossly expensive Honda tool. I can't.
The "fuel enrichener" on our bikes is a standard enrichener circuit. It makes a richer mix.
You can tune your carbs to a decent level with a butt dyno and plug reading but a real dyno is the way to extract the most power.
The plugs look OK to me too. It's obvious that they're brand new but the color looks OK for a modern engine. Did you do a plug cut? If so, at what speed.
The pilot screws only affect the idle circuit. CV carbs divide the work into three basic parts:
The idle circuit: which provides fueling until the slide starts to rise, basically idle to just above idle
The midrange circuit: controlled by the needle and transitioning off idle to a point where the slide is open, and
The main circuit, controlled by the main jet.
There are transitions among these three circuits but the pilot screws won't have a measurable effect on drivability or the mixture off idle.
The circuits build on each other but the idle circuit really has no effect on the main circuit.
If your bike is lean or rich on idle, you'll adjust the idle screws or (worst case) replace the idle jets.
If your bike is lean or rich in the midrange, the shape or position of the needle is to blame. At full on your mixture is modified by changing the main jet. The test to adjust idle mixture is called an idle drop test and involves finding the fastest idle (mixture) and richening from there about a quarter of a turn.
It requires a good sensitive tach and can't be done with the bike tach. And I don't know anyone who can adjust the pilot screws (modified or not) without the grossly expensive Honda tool. I can't.
The "fuel enrichener" on our bikes is a standard enrichener circuit. It makes a richer mix.
You can tune your carbs to a decent level with a butt dyno and plug reading but a real dyno is the way to extract the most power.
03-28-2005, 06:55 PM
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Re: PICS OF MY PLUGS ! ! !
ok, Troy, those pipes have been on there for awhile.
no, i have no ide what a plug cut is, so no , havent done it
. the plugs arent new, those are the ones i replace in my bike with the iridium IX's.
ya see, i start the bike with enricher/choke out, wait 30 seconds.. and IF I PUT that choke all the way back in, the bike WILL stall. idle speed is correct... cus if i adjust it higher so that when i do push in the choke it cant stall.... well, when the bike warms up, the idle is way high, so i know the idle is OK. im afraid to keep the choke out more than 45 seconds seeing how i know its not GOOD for it. anyways, it can idle.... i can ease it up to 1/2 throttle, but if i go from closed throttle/idle, and blip it and hold at lets say 1/2 throttle, the RPMs hang there for a while at idle , gurgle like im runnin out of gas when my tanks empty and sputters, and THEN goes up after a minutre of the sputtering. well, i guess ill try to get it out this week, get rid of some old fall gas... but there aint much more in there... just givin myself a false hope.
thanks a lot guys, i love the bike and am GONNA keep pluggin. this guy from cycle world magazine recommended i get a DYNA-JET / K&N jet kit, not the dynojet one... guess its real simple to tune and boom im done. hard to find research on this dynA kit with an "A" .
no, i have no ide what a plug cut is, so no , havent done it
. the plugs arent new, those are the ones i replace in my bike with the iridium IX's. ya see, i start the bike with enricher/choke out, wait 30 seconds.. and IF I PUT that choke all the way back in, the bike WILL stall. idle speed is correct... cus if i adjust it higher so that when i do push in the choke it cant stall.... well, when the bike warms up, the idle is way high, so i know the idle is OK. im afraid to keep the choke out more than 45 seconds seeing how i know its not GOOD for it. anyways, it can idle.... i can ease it up to 1/2 throttle, but if i go from closed throttle/idle, and blip it and hold at lets say 1/2 throttle, the RPMs hang there for a while at idle , gurgle like im runnin out of gas when my tanks empty and sputters, and THEN goes up after a minutre of the sputtering. well, i guess ill try to get it out this week, get rid of some old fall gas... but there aint much more in there... just givin myself a false hope.
thanks a lot guys, i love the bike and am GONNA keep pluggin. this guy from cycle world magazine recommended i get a DYNA-JET / K&N jet kit, not the dynojet one... guess its real simple to tune and boom im done. hard to find research on this dynA kit with an "A" .
03-28-2005, 07:08 PM
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Re: PICS OF MY PLUGS ! ! !
Save the effort. There is no Dynajet jet kit. It sounds like you are rich in the midrange. Try dropping the needle down (clip up) a little bit.
It would help if you run through what you changed, point by point, and where you set the needle. Did you change the idle jet?
The other possibility is that you've pinched a diaphram which prevents the slide from fully dropping. You can check this by moving it with your finger. Both slides should return to the same point when you let go.
45 seconds is a pretty quick warm up. Two minutes is more like it, depending on temp.
It also just dawned on me that the plugs in your pic aren't platinum tips. Did you change them before?
It would help if you run through what you changed, point by point, and where you set the needle. Did you change the idle jet?
The other possibility is that you've pinched a diaphram which prevents the slide from fully dropping. You can check this by moving it with your finger. Both slides should return to the same point when you let go.
45 seconds is a pretty quick warm up. Two minutes is more like it, depending on temp.
It also just dawned on me that the plugs in your pic aren't platinum tips. Did you change them before?
03-28-2005, 07:58 PM
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Re: PICS OF MY PLUGS ! ! !
Js:
ok, ill shoot from scratch... listen up everyone
i got the bike 3 weeks ago in the bronx,NY, brought it home, and the problems were there before i did ANYTHING .
this is what i have done to remedy and regular maintenance:
1. flip the PAIR system flaps
2. adjusted the TPS to 485 ohms
3. changed the plugs(NOT the old ones in the pictures) to NGK iridium IX's with .035 gap set
4.shimmed the needles with .020" 3mm washers(one on each of the needles)
5. cut the old air filter element out, rtv siliconed a FRAM one on it and made sure it was sealed tight. (nice mod, SuperBling!)
all these repairs or maintenance tasks were done for spring prep. the problem was there before. i havent touched any of the pilot/slow/main/air screws . nothin. even if i gradually rev up , itll do it. about the choking.... i was always told to choke for 30-40 seconds, then push it in, let it bumble around 800 rpm for 5 min until its warm. i would suspect the bike would keep runin if i CHOKED it out for 5 minutes, but would presume that was a NO NO. i hear a couple coughs from the air box one of every five times ripin it to 6k rpm's, but not really.
ok, heres is the link i found of the jet kit in regards to what i THINK hes talkin about, and the letter he wrote me:
http://www.ronayers.com/kn_products/hondajet.cfm
ok, ill shoot from scratch... listen up everyone
i got the bike 3 weeks ago in the bronx,NY, brought it home, and the problems were there before i did ANYTHING .
this is what i have done to remedy and regular maintenance:
1. flip the PAIR system flaps
2. adjusted the TPS to 485 ohms
3. changed the plugs(NOT the old ones in the pictures) to NGK iridium IX's with .035 gap set
4.shimmed the needles with .020" 3mm washers(one on each of the needles)
5. cut the old air filter element out, rtv siliconed a FRAM one on it and made sure it was sealed tight. (nice mod, SuperBling!)
all these repairs or maintenance tasks were done for spring prep. the problem was there before. i havent touched any of the pilot/slow/main/air screws . nothin. even if i gradually rev up , itll do it. about the choking.... i was always told to choke for 30-40 seconds, then push it in, let it bumble around 800 rpm for 5 min until its warm. i would suspect the bike would keep runin if i CHOKED it out for 5 minutes, but would presume that was a NO NO. i hear a couple coughs from the air box one of every five times ripin it to 6k rpm's, but not really.
ok, heres is the link i found of the jet kit in regards to what i THINK hes talkin about, and the letter he wrote me:
http://www.ronayers.com/kn_products/hondajet.cfm
The kit I'm referring to (and there are several available) is marketed by Dyna-Jet/K&N. you can order it from any motorcycle shop, I just suggested a Honda dealer because they should be familiar with the kit needed to get your bike working. The kits normally come with a selection of jets, and full tuning instructions,some of the kits are spec'd as Stage one, two, three, depending on the bikes modifications, so be sure to order the appropriate kit for your bike, and the mods you've made. Once the kit is installed it's pretty much a set and forget proposition, but yes, if you want to experiment with the pilot screws you may have to pull the carbs, or find a tool that'll let you access them on the engine, perhaps the Motion Pro pilot screw adjusting tool will work. In my experience though, 9 times out of 10 installing the kit to recommend specs, and yes they do provide pilot screw settings, will get the bike where it needs to be.
03-28-2005, 09:24 PM
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So you don't know what was done before and you've added several variables and you didn't really install a jet kit. Ok!!!
Anything could be wrong with your fueling from float heights to jetting to dirty carbs to a bad jetting job before to, well, who knows? You know you had the wrong plugs.
When you shimmed the needles, did they have five concentric rings for the clip or just one? Are you sure the diaphrams are in good shape? What are the settings on the pilot screws?
If it were me, or if I were wrenching on your bike. I'd put everything back to stock in the carb internals and start over. Then I'd fix any problems before attempting jetting.
If I remember, the tps speck is 500 ohms at 68 degrees, +-100 ohms. I don't really understand the relationship between the settings and the temperature but I'm sure it matters since they mention it.
Too many variables and unknowns. You need a healthy baseline.
Anything could be wrong with your fueling from float heights to jetting to dirty carbs to a bad jetting job before to, well, who knows? You know you had the wrong plugs.
When you shimmed the needles, did they have five concentric rings for the clip or just one? Are you sure the diaphrams are in good shape? What are the settings on the pilot screws?
If it were me, or if I were wrenching on your bike. I'd put everything back to stock in the carb internals and start over. Then I'd fix any problems before attempting jetting.
If I remember, the tps speck is 500 ohms at 68 degrees, +-100 ohms. I don't really understand the relationship between the settings and the temperature but I'm sure it matters since they mention it.
Too many variables and unknowns. You need a healthy baseline.
03-28-2005, 10:14 PM
#18
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Re: PICS OF MY PLUGS ! ! !
When you shimmed the needles, did they have five concentric rings for the clip or just one? Are you sure the diaphrams are in good shape? What are the settings on the pilot screws?
If it were me, or if I were wrenching on your bike. I'd put everything back to stock in the carb internals and start over. Then I'd fix any problems before attempting jetting.
If I remember, the tps speck is 500 ohms at 68 degrees, +-100 ohms
If it were me, or if I were wrenching on your bike. I'd put everything back to stock in the carb internals and start over. Then I'd fix any problems before attempting jetting.
If I remember, the tps speck is 500 ohms at 68 degrees, +-100 ohms
get back to me please. any success with the jet kit or is it just as easy to screw with stock pilot and mains and slows and idles?
04-02-2005, 08:38 AM
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Re: PICS OF MY PLUGS ! ! !
You state that when you try to rev it HARD while warming up it burbles. You also state that you have only ridden it once. So I am assumming that basically what your going on is from wrist racing a cold engine. You live in NE Ohio and so do I and it has not been that warm. At these temps it takes mine 5 or so miles for the temp to stabilize. I'm lucky if the temp gage ever goes above 180. In the summer it runs about 190 to 200. Do yourself a favor and do your tuning at operating temps. If you tune it to run good by wrist racing it on the kickstand you will be dissappointed when you get out on the road. Also the Hawk has the largest carbs ever put on a prduction motorcycle. Large carbs don't like a heavy hand at very low RPM's. especially when the engine is cold,even if they are vacum operated. V-Twins are a differant beast. It is called caracter. you have made alot of changes and you have no idea which one helped or which one hurt. You are no longer in the I-4 sewing machine world. Slow down a little. Ride it to get feel for what needs to be done----- like a woman. We are all here to help but you are starting to chase your tail. I have owned everything from singles to six cylinders,two strokes and 4's. They all have their own little quirks. You'll get it but do one thing at a time-ride it-then decide if it helped or hurt. this is not a flame---because 30 years ago I was exactally were you are. Put some miles on her then see what needs to be done. All engines run better whith heat in them. Not to mention last longer with the oil temp at operating temperature. Good luck.
04-02-2005, 11:12 AM
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Re: PICS OF MY PLUGS ! ! !
well sorry, hawknut. ill figure it out. and no, as ive stated previously, the bike was doing it before the mods.. i mean, i got it and it was like that, then and onl then i did the mods... doesnt matter. took off the carbs, DREMELed the air fuel mix screws, made a flathead mark in them, now i can adjust with a eyeglass tiny screwdriver. i bigger problems now... my tank decided to slide off and onto the floor while i was workin on it.
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