Newbie needs help quick
06-30-2009, 12:28 AM
#1
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Newbie needs help quick
Hey guys, short on time here but I need some info. I have a 1997 VTR firestorm. Only 7300 km, not a typo. I bought the bike 3 weeks ago at 6500 km and as of last week it started making a ticking noise. No, not CCT or valves. Took it to a mechanic and he said that he would stop driving it immediatly. I have taken the bike apart The engine has no wear on it, not making any metal nor any leaks. The reason I bought it was because it was in pristine condtion. The 2 previous owners were a man in his 60s and a man in his 50s.
The noise does sound simular to valves, ticking and it increases with RPM. I did find that the drive sprocket behind the clutch for the oil pump is moving and the chain has quite abit of slop in it. No sure if it was designed like that or not. should it be tight on the shaft? Also the oil pump has quite a bit of play but I think that it is designed like that.
The clutch itself is fine, no wear.
Is this a common problem or am I wasting my time?
What else can I check?
Thanks in advance
Ryan
The noise does sound simular to valves, ticking and it increases with RPM. I did find that the drive sprocket behind the clutch for the oil pump is moving and the chain has quite abit of slop in it. No sure if it was designed like that or not. should it be tight on the shaft? Also the oil pump has quite a bit of play but I think that it is designed like that.
The clutch itself is fine, no wear.
Is this a common problem or am I wasting my time?
What else can I check?
Thanks in advance
Ryan
06-30-2009, 04:56 AM
#3
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It's hard to tell without listening to it, but as drew says, leaks can make a ticking sound, and valves can make a ticking sound, but if a qualified mechanic is that concerned it might be something more serious. What about it tells you it's not the CCTs or valves?
06-30-2009, 05:20 AM
#4
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Well the mechanic said it was a noise he was not familiar with and that it was not a CCT noise or a valve noise. I checked for exhaust leaks when the bike was running and found none. Wish I had a video from when the bike was running.
Has anyone heard of worn wrist pins and rod bearing on a bike with such low Km on it. How much wear would it require to make a noise. Last night as I turned the engine it made a sound from what appears to be from the rear cyl when the piston was at tdc and bdc. Not from the top of the engine.
I cut open the oil filter and there is no metal in it.
Thanks for the replies, keep em coming. I gotta get this fixed quick.
Ryan
Has anyone heard of worn wrist pins and rod bearing on a bike with such low Km on it. How much wear would it require to make a noise. Last night as I turned the engine it made a sound from what appears to be from the rear cyl when the piston was at tdc and bdc. Not from the top of the engine.
I cut open the oil filter and there is no metal in it.
Thanks for the replies, keep em coming. I gotta get this fixed quick.
Ryan
06-30-2009, 07:06 AM
#6
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Yeah, the mechanic did see the bike and did hear it. I am going to look again at the bike tonight. Just doesn't seen right. Do the CCTs make a specific ticking noise or just a general run of the mill could be anything ticking noise. They don't have many miles on them and not hard race miles either.
What about the rod/piston thing, any ideas or experiences anyone?
Ryan
What about the rod/piston thing, any ideas or experiences anyone?
Ryan
06-30-2009, 07:12 AM
#7
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well is the mechanic familiar with VTR's because from what i understood they have really loud carb sliders....i personally have seen em slap back and fourth during cranking and they are loud...
even up to about 3000 rpm that noise is distinct
even up to about 3000 rpm that noise is distinct
06-30-2009, 07:30 AM
#8
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Ryan, if you're looking for metal don't forget to check the catcher on the foot of the oil pump...I think you can just pull it off and see what's in it and slide it right back on...
Good luck,
RC
Good luck,
RC
06-30-2009, 07:33 AM
#9
guru of things sparky
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sudden new ticking noises are never valves unless theres some failure.
If you buy it with the noise, and it hasnt changed since you bought it, it could be.
The best tool everyone needs for noises is a stethescope.
I can pinpoint what valves exactly are ticking with one.
And CCT issues sound nothing at all like valve clicks when hearing it thru a stethescope.
Even cheap ones from the auto parts store are great tools.
If you buy it with the noise, and it hasnt changed since you bought it, it could be.
The best tool everyone needs for noises is a stethescope.
I can pinpoint what valves exactly are ticking with one.
And CCT issues sound nothing at all like valve clicks when hearing it thru a stethescope.
Even cheap ones from the auto parts store are great tools.
06-30-2009, 11:54 AM
#10
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Took the oil pan off tonight and checked the pickup in the oil pan. Clean as a whistle.
The rear CCT is out and is in good shape.
Circuit_Burner, there is nothing to indicate a sudden failure. I listened to the engine with a stethoscope too, and I could not pin point a noise. But..as I turn the crank, in two spots, in a specific stroke there is a small noise coming from the rear cyl. Piston slap? What would this sound like? Not sure and I am skeptical to pull the head off. I have a munaul but there is something to be said for hands on experience. Is there a trick I need to know or is it fool proof? I also don't want to waste my time with it cause I have no other reason to make me believe there is a problem.
Red_Liner740, can you perhaps explain more of this to me? Is it a progessive noise that appears or all of a sudden? What causes it? Are there anything else that can make noises.
Maybe the problem is not in the engine at all. The mechanic got me paranoid and I am really **** with my stuff and its condition.
Thanks for your replies.
Ryan
The rear CCT is out and is in good shape.
Circuit_Burner, there is nothing to indicate a sudden failure. I listened to the engine with a stethoscope too, and I could not pin point a noise. But..as I turn the crank, in two spots, in a specific stroke there is a small noise coming from the rear cyl. Piston slap? What would this sound like? Not sure and I am skeptical to pull the head off. I have a munaul but there is something to be said for hands on experience. Is there a trick I need to know or is it fool proof? I also don't want to waste my time with it cause I have no other reason to make me believe there is a problem.
Red_Liner740, can you perhaps explain more of this to me? Is it a progessive noise that appears or all of a sudden? What causes it? Are there anything else that can make noises.
Maybe the problem is not in the engine at all. The mechanic got me paranoid and I am really **** with my stuff and its condition.
Thanks for your replies.
Ryan
06-30-2009, 12:45 PM
#11
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Any other Superhawk owners in your area? It might be good to have them give it a listen, and for you to compare with theirs, before you tear the engine apart over what might be nothing to worry about.
06-30-2009, 01:34 PM
#12
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Well I don't know anyone else around here with one. Not that popular around here. I am in a small town too so that doesn't help. It is a noise that can be easily heard and not a noise you could say was "just normal twin" noise. Buddies of mine have come over and asked what was going on with the bike cause it is not a run of the mill sound.
I am getting to my end with this. I am just confused as hell.
Ryan
I am getting to my end with this. I am just confused as hell.
Ryan
06-30-2009, 01:40 PM
#13
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Ryan, not sure what to tell you short of tearing the head off and looking down the hole cuz you've checked most everything else...you may want to drop Roger Ditchfield an email to see if he's got any ideas for ya...
http://www.revolutionuk.co.uk/
http://www.revolutionuk.co.uk/
06-30-2009, 03:27 PM
#15
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You are saying the mechanic ruled out CCT's and valve's... How?
In my experience the only way to rule out any source is to check... It's been more than once where I and/or other people have said "It's definetly not..." and it ends up being that...
You said that you heard a noise at TDC and BDC on the rear cylinder? At TDC is the only time the valve's are unloaded at the rear cylinder, and at BDC the front is at TDC and is unloaded... if there is a noise at those time's it's more than reason enough to suspect the valve's and CCT's...
I'd say at this point it's not an unreasonable amount of work to remove the valve covers and check clearence... At the same time consider swapping the CCT's for stock (expensive) or manual (APE, also expensive) or if you have a drill press handy, make the one's you have into manuals using a bolt and a nyloc nut (not expensive)...
At that point you know it's not valve's or CCT's... until then I'd consider those as suspect as anything else...
In my experience the only way to rule out any source is to check... It's been more than once where I and/or other people have said "It's definetly not..." and it ends up being that...
You said that you heard a noise at TDC and BDC on the rear cylinder? At TDC is the only time the valve's are unloaded at the rear cylinder, and at BDC the front is at TDC and is unloaded... if there is a noise at those time's it's more than reason enough to suspect the valve's and CCT's...
I'd say at this point it's not an unreasonable amount of work to remove the valve covers and check clearence... At the same time consider swapping the CCT's for stock (expensive) or manual (APE, also expensive) or if you have a drill press handy, make the one's you have into manuals using a bolt and a nyloc nut (not expensive)...
At that point you know it's not valve's or CCT's... until then I'd consider those as suspect as anything else...
06-30-2009, 03:42 PM
#16
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1. have you considered asking the previous owner about this noise?(he might be inclined to tell you if the bike came with that noise)
2. maybe you could make a video and post it up to you tube so some one here that knows about that kind of stuff could give you a suggestion?
3. how come the bike has such low miles on it? and also ask the owner before the last one about the bike. maybe he will shed some light on why he sold it and what noises it had and what services he had done to the bike. maybe a mechanic who touched it before screwed something up.
4. is the bike all stock. what mods have been made to this bike.
5. circut suggested stethoscope to check for pin pointing.. you replied with you already did that but hear nothing, yet with a ear to the air you are saying you definatly hear noise originating at TDC and BDC from the rear piston? well slap on the stethoscope again and confirm that it is actually coming from that area.
i still think your best bet is to ask the previos owner some sherlock holmes questions.
Good luck.
5150
2. maybe you could make a video and post it up to you tube so some one here that knows about that kind of stuff could give you a suggestion?
3. how come the bike has such low miles on it? and also ask the owner before the last one about the bike. maybe he will shed some light on why he sold it and what noises it had and what services he had done to the bike. maybe a mechanic who touched it before screwed something up.
4. is the bike all stock. what mods have been made to this bike.
5. circut suggested stethoscope to check for pin pointing.. you replied with you already did that but hear nothing, yet with a ear to the air you are saying you definatly hear noise originating at TDC and BDC from the rear piston? well slap on the stethoscope again and confirm that it is actually coming from that area.
i still think your best bet is to ask the previos owner some sherlock holmes questions.
Good luck.
5150
06-30-2009, 04:45 PM
#19
guru of things sparky
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If its not pinpointed with stethescope. its almost a guaranteed exhaust leak, or worse an intake air leak. The latter is more unlikely but can happen.
Exhaust noises are really external noises and wont be easily pinpointed with the S-scope.
Exhaust noises are really external noises and wont be easily pinpointed with the S-scope.
07-01-2009, 12:24 AM
#20
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superhawk205, it is a noise that increases with RPM.
Tweety, I confirmed the rear CCT last night. I am going to check valves tonight. The noise is a little sorta click noise and it happens twice in one perticular stroke but not at TDC and BDC. More like TDC and 1/2 to 3/4 down I think.
I have a video of the noise but it is on my buddies camara. I can try to post it here so you can listen.
5150, there was no noise from previous, when I bought it . I would have to re-assemble the bike to start it again to video the noise. Will take time.
The 2 previous owners were a man in his 60s and a man in his 50s. The first was a fair weather rider only and the second didn´t have it very long. Had to return home for medical reasons and everything was sold.
The bike is all 100% stock.
nuhawk,"*** it ride the hell out of it til blows. Then you'll know for shore!" I thought about it already. Just can't afford the catastrope.
Thanks
Ryan
Tweety, I confirmed the rear CCT last night. I am going to check valves tonight. The noise is a little sorta click noise and it happens twice in one perticular stroke but not at TDC and BDC. More like TDC and 1/2 to 3/4 down I think.
I have a video of the noise but it is on my buddies camara. I can try to post it here so you can listen.
5150, there was no noise from previous, when I bought it . I would have to re-assemble the bike to start it again to video the noise. Will take time.
The 2 previous owners were a man in his 60s and a man in his 50s. The first was a fair weather rider only and the second didn´t have it very long. Had to return home for medical reasons and everything was sold.
The bike is all 100% stock.
nuhawk,"*** it ride the hell out of it til blows. Then you'll know for shore!" I thought about it already. Just can't afford the catastrope.
Thanks
Ryan
07-01-2009, 04:08 AM
#21
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superhawk205, it is a noise that increases with RPM.
Tweety, I confirmed the rear CCT last night. I am going to check valves tonight. The noise is a little sorta click noise and it happens twice in one perticular stroke but not at TDC and BDC. More like TDC and 1/2 to 3/4 down I think.
Tweety, I confirmed the rear CCT last night. I am going to check valves tonight. The noise is a little sorta click noise and it happens twice in one perticular stroke but not at TDC and BDC. More like TDC and 1/2 to 3/4 down I think.
07-01-2009, 05:23 AM
#22
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Tweety, your right I didn't take it apart but when I retracted the mechanism with the screw it felt like good spring pressure was there.
As I mentioned before, the drive sprocket behind the clutch for the oil pump is moving and the chain has quite abit of slop in it. Is the sprocket on the shaft supposed to have play in it or should it be a tight sprocket to the shaft. Is this a problem?
Thanks
Ryan
As I mentioned before, the drive sprocket behind the clutch for the oil pump is moving and the chain has quite abit of slop in it. Is the sprocket on the shaft supposed to have play in it or should it be a tight sprocket to the shaft. Is this a problem?
Thanks
Ryan
07-01-2009, 09:39 AM
#23
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check the connection where your rear cylinder header meets up with the midpipes. that short downturned pipe. wiggle the exhaust pipes a little and see if anything changes. I had a very similar problem. turned out to be the metal seal between the pipes had come loose and was slapping around in there. still is. on mine, you can actually see it thru the slot in the headerpipe where it connects to that twisted combobulation where all the pipes connect just under the shock. you can see it moving with ever puff of exhaust. sounds bad, but no mechanical impact.anyway, might be it, might not. but like you, the noise was freaking me out, and I knew it wasn't cct or valves.
07-01-2009, 10:03 AM
#24
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Ok, checked both CCTs. No broken springs, tension feels good. Did a valve clearance check, this is what I got.
Rear cly
_____IN___________________ EX
.008(0.203mm) stator side .0135(0.343mm)
.0065(0.165mm) clutch side .012(0.305mm)
Front cyl
_____IN___________________ EX
.0075(0.190mm) stator side .012(0.305mm)
.0065(0.165mm) clutch side .013(0.330mm)
They are not to far out. The worst one being the rear cyl IN stator side. Is the to much? Will that make a noise?
swordfish, I wish the problem was that easy of a fix but when the bike was running it I didn't feel any exhaust leaks.
As I mentioned before, the drive sprocket behind the clutch for the oil pump is moving and the chain has quite abit of slop in it. Is the sprocket on the shaft supposed to have play in it or should it be a tight sprocket to the shaft. Is this a problem?
Cheers
Ryan
Rear cly
_____IN___________________ EX
.008(0.203mm) stator side .0135(0.343mm)
.0065(0.165mm) clutch side .012(0.305mm)
Front cyl
_____IN___________________ EX
.0075(0.190mm) stator side .012(0.305mm)
.0065(0.165mm) clutch side .013(0.330mm)
They are not to far out. The worst one being the rear cyl IN stator side. Is the to much? Will that make a noise?
swordfish, I wish the problem was that easy of a fix but when the bike was running it I didn't feel any exhaust leaks.
As I mentioned before, the drive sprocket behind the clutch for the oil pump is moving and the chain has quite abit of slop in it. Is the sprocket on the shaft supposed to have play in it or should it be a tight sprocket to the shaft. Is this a problem?
Cheers
Ryan
Last edited by vtrstorm; 07-01-2009 at 10:08 AM.
07-01-2009, 10:33 AM
#25
Out of my mind, back in 5
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The chain itself should be set to a reasonable slack, ie about 40mm free movement if I recall correctly... (I usually eyeball it, I've done it enough time's to not need to measure)
As for the cluth and oilpump they are separate entities... Or have I misunderstood what you are talking about?
07-01-2009, 01:56 PM
#26
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Ok I can see the confusion. Ill try to explain.
On the shaft in which the clutch mounts there is a sprocket (oil pump drive sprocket), located behind said clutch. This sprocket has a chain which goes down to another sprocket which is on the oil pump (oil pump driven sprocket).
The slop is on the drive sprocket behind the clutch. Is this supposed to have some movement in it?
The chain does have the slack you speak of but is see know way of adjusting it anyway. Oh so you know I don't have a tool to pull the clutch. Do you need a special puller or what?
If this sprocket is supposed to be fixed solid to the shaft then I may have found my noise. Is this a common problem? If this sprocket were let unattented it could fail and stop turning the oil pump. Thats bad!
What do you guys think?
If there some verification to this then happy days. I am all out of other ideas.
Cheers Ryan
On the shaft in which the clutch mounts there is a sprocket (oil pump drive sprocket), located behind said clutch. This sprocket has a chain which goes down to another sprocket which is on the oil pump (oil pump driven sprocket).
The slop is on the drive sprocket behind the clutch. Is this supposed to have some movement in it?
The chain does have the slack you speak of but is see know way of adjusting it anyway. Oh so you know I don't have a tool to pull the clutch. Do you need a special puller or what?
If this sprocket is supposed to be fixed solid to the shaft then I may have found my noise. Is this a common problem? If this sprocket were let unattented it could fail and stop turning the oil pump. Thats bad!
What do you guys think?
If there some verification to this then happy days. I am all out of other ideas.
Cheers Ryan
07-01-2009, 04:38 PM
#27
mildly retarded
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I really think you need to get ahold of someone else who has a superhawk. that would give you something to compare. where do you live? let everyone know so you can visit with another member possibly!
I'm in Denver, My bike is noisy as hell, but runs perfect. My guess is that noise you are hearing is just natural to our big twins...
I'm in Denver, My bike is noisy as hell, but runs perfect. My guess is that noise you are hearing is just natural to our big twins...
07-01-2009, 05:53 PM
#28
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I think I know what your problem is...maybe.
Back in the day, some folks would modify the engine a little bit to free up a little bit of hp by removing the quieting gear on the primary drive gear assembly. It would reduce friction and rotating mass but at the same time you would get gear slop in the form of a rattle.
Look at the pic below and tell me if the quieting gear is installed. You should have one thick and one thin gear with springs in between. If the thinner gear is not there then that's your problem. Will it cause any negative long-term effects? Probably not.
As for the water pump driven chain, yes there is supposed to be some slop in that chain. They are that way from the factory.
Hope this is your problem so we can put this one to bed.
Back in the day, some folks would modify the engine a little bit to free up a little bit of hp by removing the quieting gear on the primary drive gear assembly. It would reduce friction and rotating mass but at the same time you would get gear slop in the form of a rattle.
Look at the pic below and tell me if the quieting gear is installed. You should have one thick and one thin gear with springs in between. If the thinner gear is not there then that's your problem. Will it cause any negative long-term effects? Probably not.
As for the water pump driven chain, yes there is supposed to be some slop in that chain. They are that way from the factory.
Hope this is your problem so we can put this one to bed.
07-02-2009, 12:22 AM
#29
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j shizzy wizzy, well if I gotta tell you, I am currently living in Sweden. Don't know many people here and VTRs are not quite as popular but they are here.
Hawkrider, the quieting gear is installed. There are no mods done to the bike. Thanks for the idea though. Its greatly appreciated.
Can anyone confirm the sprocket behind the clutch?
Thanks
Ryan
Hawkrider, the quieting gear is installed. There are no mods done to the bike. Thanks for the idea though. Its greatly appreciated.
Can anyone confirm the sprocket behind the clutch?
Thanks
Ryan
07-02-2009, 12:51 AM
#30
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And where in Sweden are you located?
We are more than enough VTR nuts around... All over the country... I think I can scare up one withing a 50km radius in less than 10 minutes...
We are more than enough VTR nuts around... All over the country... I think I can scare up one withing a 50km radius in less than 10 minutes...
